SGOTM 10 - One Short Straw

[babybluepants]

I generally tend to agree with the copper site being one of the next two we settle. While we may find some room on the islands, we're currently looking at only 6-7 city sites available. We should grab those aggressively.

For all you cottage lovers i would like to hear answers to following questions:
A. Date [abstracts when we have rexed does not count] when you start working first few cottages in cap
B. Presumably estimated time to reach towns
C. If you choose run emancipation in B, what are you doing with GPP.
D. What are you doing with extra gold in final stage [remember we do not win by reaching nukes we will need to make 'some' of them].
E. if answer to D is rushbuy how much commerce multipliers you are planing to build [yes no to walstreet in particular]
F. Assuming rest of available land is about same quality where you place Ironworks.

My [severely biased against cottages opinion] - A. hardly imagine anything before late sixteenth century.
B. nukes will be reached faster than towns.
C. without emancipation cottages not making cut, my option is not to make these harmful things
F - capitol

This is roughly what I was trying to say yesterday. Like I said, I'm a bit too stupid to properly analyze it.

 

[babybluepants]

I think we could probably move ahead with the current turns, while we discuss broader issues. I'll post a more precise plan after a bit of discussion, but for now I'd say:

Workers:
Worker01 roads gold, then mines starting PH
Worker02 finishes PH gold mine, then moves to chop for a settler
Worker03 finishes GH mine, then mines GH that our worker started on
Worker04 camps ivory SW of St Pete
(Worker05 camps ivory WSW of St Pete)

Cities:
Moscow - worked tiles (order of priority): corn, rice, cow, GH gold, PH gold, GH mine, PH mine, GH Mine. There is one turn, noted by Soirana a few pages back, when Moscow can grow a turn faster by skipping PH gold for a turn. I'm unsure about that. Builds: finish library, start LB, switch to settler for 1t when chop in.
St Pete - worked tiles: clam & 2 ivories, crab after WB, then probably FP. Builds: finish WB, start library.

Gandhi:
T291 1355
Move southern LB 1S; hold northern LB
IBT
Confirm second worker

Assuming second worker moves to western silk:
T292 1360
Move northern LB 1E; DOW; southern LB steals
T293 1365
northern LB back in to PH 2E of Delhi; southern LB & workers to 1NW of Bombay
T294 1370
northern LB fortifies; southern LB joins northern LB; worker 2NE (ivory); worker NNE (ivory)

Keep LB's away from his cities. Wait for "Refuses to Talk" to end, sign peace. End turnset.

If no second worker IBT, stop and consult again.

 

[shyuhe]

That sounds like a good plan. I think it's worth declaring for just one worker, although two would be nicer. The northern LB should probably head 1E to make sure it doesn't get kicked towards the iron when we declare. It'll also make sure Gandhi doesn't walk into an empty city.

 

[babybluepants]

I was leaving it next to Delhi to see what happens IBT. I was gonna move it 1E before DOW-ing the next turn. I can move it right away, if you guys think that's better.

 

[babybluepants]

@Soirana,

Honestly, you've done more testing than anyone. That's not in dispute. shyuhe and I, at least, have done quite a bit, though. I'd also like to see more tested opinion, but I guess not everyone is available to test all the time. Frankly, I'm not as good a player as some of you guys, so my work on it to date maybe hasn't contributed as much. But, there's not much to do about that.

I think we've played the first few turns as well as can be expected. Judging by what I can gather about the other teams, we're probably expanding better than them, and we're dealing with Gandhi aggressively at the same time. Anyway, despite the frustrations, I don't see a reason to not just continue the way we've been going. Hopefully, we'll all be more available in the next couple of months.

 

[shyuhe]

If we move it 1E first, then we may have the chance for a worker steal on the eastern border since the LB will be unmoved upon war declaration. It's an unlikely scenario but I don't think we'll get much more intel from leaving the LB next to Delhi.

 

[shyuhe]

@Soirana,

Honestly, you've done more testing than anyone. That's not in dispute. shyuhe and I, at least, have done quite a bit, though. I'd also like to see more tested opinion, but I guess not everyone is available to test all the time. Frankly, I'm not as good a player as some of you guys, so my work on it to date maybe hasn't contributed as much. But, there's not much to do about that.

I think we've played the first few turns as well as can be expected. Judging by what I can gather about the other teams, we're probably expanding better than them, and we're dealing with Gandhi aggressively at the same time. Anyway, despite the frustrations, I don't see a reason to not just continue the way we've been going. Hopefully, we'll all be more available in the next couple of months.

I second this. I definitely don't want to lose you from our team!

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

@Soirana: I feel all your frustation is because of me... If this is true i would very much leave myself the team rather than let you go...

About my "back to first page" post:
You asked yesterday for 2 macro points, I just tryed to answer... YOu can repeat that we can't take city before nukes, I don't see the reason for settling crappy land and putting us in danger strategicaly... perhaps I am just wrong on this (quality of land, and advantages of settling behind)? And I know it's not ancient start, though I don't quite understand the rest... Though we do rush in going there when we didn't even start proper exploration... again I am prolly wrong...

About the cottages issue, we seem to agree...

Finally about my participation: I know this is about team play, and i very much like it... but you can't expect anyone to test every possibilities for every turn like you do... it's just not my fun and I would rather not play... I hope it does make a bit of sense for you... again, if not, I would rather much go than let you do so...

@team: sorry for being so dramatic, but I truly feel like I am the "bugger" (perhaps it was the case for USun too???)... each time i try to contribute since a bit, I am either ignored or get a nice post...

Anyway, I'll look at Babybluepants MM plan asa i am at home...

Cheers,
Raskolnikov

 

[Soirana]

deleted into oblivion

 

[Soirana]

deleted into oblivion

 

[babybluepants]

I bolded very wrong part. I strongly suggest not moving longbow and workers next to bombay. At arround 1365 there is a chance of catapult going out of there.

Really? In my tests, he always completes barracks in both cities before any units, and even builds a couple of LB's first, before cats. What could be different in yours? I don't see how he can get a cat that quickly with a pop2-3 non-bureau city, so I'd guess he was building it to begin with, ahead of barracks.

We could cover with both LB's, of course. What else would you suggest? Moving past Delhi is safer?

Overall improving tiles is more important than chops [as later won't go away and time working unimproved is not great].

Agree, but what would you do with the worker from PH gold? Moscow is taken care of to pop 8 already. We lose some movement turns if we go for St Pete with either that worker or the one from GH. We'll be chopping anyway soon for the settler.

 

[babybluepants]

About my "back to first page" post:
You asked yesterday for 2 macro points, I just tryed to answer... YOu can repeat that we can't take city before nukes, I don't see the reason for settling crappy land and putting us in danger strategicaly... perhaps I am just wrong on this (quality of land, and advantages of settling behind)? And I know it's not ancient start, though I don't quite understand the rest... Though we do rush in going there when we didn't even start proper exploration... again I am prolly wrong...

I agree with this to an extent. At the very least, I think we'll need to delay settling decisions a bit, until we've tested more and the map's played out a bit more. I'd just say that I don't necessarily buy the "any city we build, we don't need to nuke" dictum, since we will have to nuke 40-50... More on this topic to follow...

 

[Soirana]

deleted into oblivion

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

I think we could probably move ahead with the current turns, while we discuss broader issues. I'll post a more precise plan after a bit of discussion, but for now I'd say:

Workers:
Worker01 roads gold, then mines starting PH
Worker02 finishes PH gold mine, then moves to chop for a settler
Worker03 finishes GH mine, then mines GH that our worker started on
Worker04 camps ivory SW of St Pete
(Worker05 camps ivory WSW of St Pete)

Cities:
Moscow - worked tiles (order of priority): corn, rice, cow, GH gold, PH gold, GH mine, PH mine, GH Mine. There is one turn, noted by Soirana a few pages back, when Moscow can grow a turn faster by skipping PH gold for a turn. I'm unsure about that. Builds: finish library, start LB, switch to settler for 1t when chop in.
St Pete - worked tiles: clam & 2 ivories, crab after WB, then probably FP. Builds: finish WB, start library.

I think moving a worker on a hill and not roading is a bit of a waste, can worker 02 road before leaving or is that out of the plans? (does it screw what tiles you planned to work?)
I don't get why both GH haven't the same value, is that a growth problem?
Not to be an ass, but I also think that skip working a grassland gold mine ( a tile that doesn't usually exist, except popping) is not good...
St Pet: I think you want to switch on the second ivory just for one turn, not for two: better to work an unimproved clam than an unimproved ivory? Once the wb is completed, no need to alt growth on such a bad tile (121)... perhaps you thought at it and vetoed it already
Finally, is there a way to include another wb (for exloration)in the queue? Or do we have to wait after the lib?

Agressive settling: Ofc if we can grab all i would like to do it (not getting stuck with 6 cities as you said), I just don't want that Gandhi steals all "our" land... Did you test this?

War plans: you guys have run into sims already, I trust you... i won't make you loose anymore time...

Cheers

 

[shyuhe]

Ok, sounds like farms for Moscow it is.

The 1SE of Delhi -- 2E of Delhi route looks safer for transporting the worker back, and we'll only lose one worker turn from it.

So is the only remaining macro question when we plan to switch to caste? I think once we clear that out, we should be good until we complete our first settler.

And I'm sorry I haven't been able to do more testing myself but I've been very busy with RL stuff. Hopefully it'll die down in another week or two.

 

[shyuhe]

St Pet: I think you want to switch on the second ivory just for one turn, not for two: better to work an unimproved clam than an unimproved ivory? Once the wb is completed, no need to alt growth on such a bad tile (121)... perhaps you thought at it and vetoed it already
Finally, is there a way to include another wb (for exloration)in the queue? Or do we have to wait after the lib?

Agressive settling: Ofc if we can grab all i would like to do it (not getting stuck with 6 cities as you said), I just don't want that Gandhi steals all "our" land... Did you test this?
Cheers

It's actually better to grow on the unimproved clam over the ivory because you gain more food that way. If the ivory were 3 hammers, it'd probably be a little different.

We won't get an exploration boat out until WB-library so I wouldn't worry about it now. There isn't much we can do about it since we don't have the resources for a galley + settler + escort anyways.

If Gandhi loses his workers, it'll cripple his growth. Kind of like worker stealing on an ancient start = really small AI. He won't send out a settler until he replenishes his worker force, which will take a bit since he doesn't have many improved tiles.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

It's actually better to grow on the unimproved clam over the ivory because you gain more food that way. If the ivory were 3 hammers, it'd probably be a little different.

That's exactly what I said! One turn on the ivory to finish wb in one turn, one turn on unimproved clam! Did I write it wrong or did you read it wrong?
Agree on the rest (even if a wb can also met people for more modifiers... - I want my wb!!! -)

edit: no pb Shyuhe!

 

[shyuhe]

I read it wrong

 

[Soirana]

deleted into oblivion

 

[PaulusIII]

Hey guys,

It'll probably not come as a surprise but I really lack time ATM, so I'll not be available for probably a few more weeks.