SGOTM 10 - One Short Straw

[shyuhe]

I don't think you can revolt without settling a city. So I think we should settle the capital on the starting tile. I think serfdom will be better for us in the beginning. At some point (soon), I think we'll build the Taj, at which point we'll have a chance to change our civics around again. So my current suggestions are:

settle in place, worker chops tree while we revolt to bureau/serfdom/pacifism.

And I also think we're in the small region of B&S given how the water bends around so much.

 

[PaulusIII]

I'm pretty sure you can also revolt without a city.

 

[shyuhe]

Ah you are correct, you can revolt without a city.

Here's my meager attempt at a test map with our current information.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

settle in place, worker chops tree while we revolt to bureau/serfdom/pacifism.

I think the pacifism is better coupled with a free engeener from the start... what do you think? or are we planning on a GS?
In fact most things depend on our initial tech path /plan... including civic choice.

 

[PaulusIII]

I'll run the map through a test tomorrow.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Tx Shyuhe for the map.

 

[Soirana]

deleted into oblivion

 

[Soirana]

deleted into oblivion

 

[mdy]

I an undecided on serfdom. If we settle in place i would go with caste due to work boats.

I would be reluctant to rely on workboats for food in the early game due to the problems caused by AI galleys, which is why I am leaning towards W of fold hill and a floodplains/ivory city.

We are going to need to focus on expansion in the early game, so other than the free specialist from Mercantilism I don't think we will be able to run any in the early game. This suggest revolting to serfdom first. and caste system later.

I also want some nice bureau workshops so i fail to see capitol on that desert hill.

Towns in the capital are much more efficeint than workshops. Under optimum conditions in the late game a workshop will produce in total 9 hammers/beakers a tun.

A burecratic town with Oxford+Academy however produces 24.375 beakers a turn. Even a hamlet produces more beakers after only 15 turns growth.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

I would be reluctant to rely on workboats for food in the early game due to the problems caused by AI galleys, which is why I am leaning towards W of fold hill and a floodplains/ivory city.

So we are passing on 3 food resources early on because of AI galleys... when we have MC for triremes? To be clear: you think we should pass on a 5 food resource city, with flat grass iron, plain hill center tile, because of the galleys? I understand this city isn't the perfect one to benefit from bureau, but still, this site is wonderfull! It can be settled in second, or the palace can be moved... What site are thinking when you say phants/fps anyway?

We are going to need to focus on expansion in the early game, so other than the free specialist from Mercantilism I don't think we will be able to run any in the aerly game. This suggest revolting to serfdom first. and caste system later.

I am with you here , I think we should not work specialists in the first few turn if we want a chance to have more than 3 cities So I would go mercantilism/serfdom before Taj Mahal. Still not sure what to think about pacifism!

Cheers

 

[shyuhe]

I don't see why you wouldn't at least settle one city on the starting spot (if not the capital). It'll be a great GP farm and why it won't milk bureau for all it's worth, I think it's still very much worthy of a city.

The phants/FP area has a lot of fog and takes a couple of turns to move to. I just don't see it paying off in the long-run.

Merc without caste = +1 hammer basically, but it's better than nothing. I think we'll need pacifism though, to speed through some techs via bulbing.

 

[babybluepants]

I find that a single trireme can do the barb-busting and it's pretty cheap to build. Plus, all the seafood is contained in that little bay - you just park a trireme at the mouth of it and don't even worry about it... In place is just a monster city. We simply don't know enough about the ivory site to commit to a capital there. The desert hill is a bit awkward. It gets all the resources, but not much land beyond that to work...

This is tricky... I have been cottaging the capital in my tests previously. I'm getting a great start expansion-wise with capital in place and a focus on production instead, but tech is really stalling going into Liberalism... Also, I forgot that Caste gives you +1h w/ workshop. Grass workshops are completely useless without Caste and pre-Chem. Serfdom is still great, though. I feel like maybe throwing in another revolt circa 1500 for HR and Caste, once all the land around the start location is improved and the cities have the potential to grow further... It might also be ok to cottage 5 grass tiles or so at the in-place capital. It would still leave 4-5 forests if we wanna go with NP later, and iron/ivory/GH gives an ok amount of hammers for the duration of the research phase... I think we should definitely go for Pacifism. It really makes a difference.

 

[mdy]

So we are passing on 3 food resources early on because of AI galleys... when we have MC for triremes? To be clear: you think we should pass on a 5 food resource city, with flat grass iron, plain hill center tile, because of the galleys? I understand this city isn't the perfect one to benefit from bureau, but still, this site is wonderfull! It can be settled in second, or the palace can be moved... What site are thinking when you say phants/fps anyway?

As all the AI's start with Optics/MC won't the barbs spawn triemes/caravels as well?

Putting all 5 food resources within the same cross would in my view be a mistake. While that city would be very strong it would deny those sources to other cities. Having 2 cities with a good food surplus is normally stronger than having 1 city with an exceptional food surplus, and another with little or none.

I don't see why you wouldn't at least settle one city on the starting spot (if not the capital). It'll be a great GP farm and why it won't milk bureau for all it's worth, I think it's still very much worthy of a city.

The phants/FP area has a lot of fog and takes a couple of turns to move to. I just don't see it paying off in the long-run.

Merc without caste = +1 hammer basically, but it's better than nothing. I think we'll need pacifism though, to speed through some techs via bulbing.

If the capital has the gold it will take 3 of the food sources so it wouldn't be such a good spot. The other 2 will probably be needed to feed a city to the North.

I agree that phants/FP is not the best place for the capital, but it is a potential site for the second or third city.

Merc will give us 2 hammers with an engineer.

 

[shyuhe]

Well, to avoid going in circles, will everybody please post their preference for:

(1) capital location
(2) suggested second city location (general direction, i.e., to the south is fine)
(3) first tech to research
(4) civics
(5) liberalism tech

 

[Soirana]

deleted into oblivion

 

[Soirana]

deleted into oblivion

 

[babybluepants]

I'm not sure I'm ready to answer... I just ran a few quick tests, including Soirana's city placement. I still have a few to run, hopefully tonight. Here's my thoughts at the moment:

(1) I'm still leaning towards in place. It's the best option for expansion, and I'm not sure we can realistically end up with a full-on commercial, bureau, Oxford capital anyway.

(2) Desert hill. In the test file I've been planting my third city 1E of S ivory in this scenario. In general, one of the major things I like about the original in-place/desert-hill suggestion is that it uses all the visible resources and leaves room for a third city in the current screenshot. Since we're very likely to get boxed in quickly, more cities is better.

(3) Nationalism / Education (bulb) / Liberalism; I sorta buy Soirana's tech path, but it's risky in case we're unable to trade early on.

(4) Bureau / Caste / Merc / Pac. Honestly, I think that all five are useful and the only reason we wouldn't switch all of them is the extra turn of anarchy. One version I've been playing around with is Serf to start, than a relatively early switch to HR / Caste. After trying a couple of quick starts with Caste, I'm leaning towards going with it from the start. The difference in worker speed is noticeable, but not game-breaking, and Caste has a lot of advantages. As for HR, we can get our cities to 8-9 without it (more if we find a happy resources soon), so I feel like we can probably go straight into Rep to avoid the extra turn of anarchy. I wonder if we can somehow align Rep with OR for a building rush. I'm getting to 5 cities slightly before Lib (in the early 1600's), but I think the extent of our expansion is map-dependent.

(5) Constitution.

 

[shyuhe]

Well, to avoid going in circles, will everybody please post their preference for:

(1) capital location
(2) suggested second city location (general direction, i.e., to the south is fine)
(3) first tech to research
(4) civics
(5) liberalism tech

I need to test some more but I unfortunately won't have much civ time this week (or weekend) So take my preferences with a grain of salt:

1 - in place. With the food sources, it'll be an excellent settler/worker pump. So much so that we may not even need serfdom - and instead just spam workers.

2 - desert hill for the gold and resources. It's a good site and we want to work the gold sooner than later.

3 - nationalism -- liberalism

4 - burea/caste/merc/pacifism

5 - totally undecided here but probably constitution, possibly astronomy, depending on the lay of the land.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

I am still undecided too as I have still a lot of things to test... still for the moment, my opinion looks a lot like Shyuhe, except the caste system part (not sure it's usefull from the get go, would prefer to switch into that during Taj Mahal golden age).

When is the deadline for running test games? ie when do we actually start this game?

Cheers

 

[mdy]

Capital: 1W of gold
2nd city: FP/Ivory
1st tech: Nationalism
liberalism tech:Constitution
Civic: Serfdom, bureacracy, mercantilism, hereditary rule, no religious civic