SGOTM 10 - One Short Straw

[RRRaskolnikov]

Ok, I like the biology bulb idea, we will have at least two scientists to bulb fission as well. We'll need to generate another one in time for a GA (to speed up factories production or Manhattan?), but it should be OK.
Will try to build at least one more settler as Shyuhe pointed out good sites.
Also starting HE in Novgorod.

Playing now

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Here we go:

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1820 AD to 1850 AD:

Turn 420, 1820 AD: You have discovered Biology!
Turn 420, 1820 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Yakutsk. Work has now begun on a Bank.

Turn 421, 1822 AD: Gandhi's Privateer (6.13) vs Stalin's Frigate 46 (Novgorod) (8.80)
Turn 421, 1822 AD: Combat Odds: 18.5%
Turn 421, 1822 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 421, 1822 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 421, 1822 AD: Unknown's Privateer is hit for 23 (70/100HP)
Turn 421, 1822 AD: Unknown's Privateer is hit for 23 (47/100HP)
Turn 421, 1822 AD: Stalin's Frigate 46 (Novgorod) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 421, 1822 AD: Stalin's Frigate 46 (Novgorod) is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 421, 1822 AD: Stalin's Frigate 46 (Novgorod) is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 421, 1822 AD: Stalin's Frigate 46 (Novgorod) is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 421, 1822 AD: Stalin's Frigate 46 (Novgorod) is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 421, 1822 AD: Stalin's Frigate 46 (Novgorod) is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 421, 1822 AD: Unknown's Privateer has defeated Stalin's Frigate 46 (Novgorod)!
Turn 421, 1822 AD: Mao Zedong has made peace with Churchill!

Turn 422, 1824 AD: Stalin's Galleon 7 (St. Petersburg) (4.00) vs Gandhi's Privateer (3.38)
Turn 422, 1824 AD: Combat Odds: 83.8%
Turn 422, 1824 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 422, 1824 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 422, 1824 AD: Unknown's Privateer is hit for 17 (30/100HP)
Turn 422, 1824 AD: Stalin's Galleon 7 (St. Petersburg) is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 422, 1824 AD: Stalin's Galleon 7 (St. Petersburg) is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 422, 1824 AD: Stalin's Galleon 7 (St. Petersburg) is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 422, 1824 AD: Unknown's Privateer is hit for 17 (13/100HP)
Turn 422, 1824 AD: Unknown's Privateer is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 422, 1824 AD: Stalin's Galleon 7 (St. Petersburg) has defeated Unknown's Privateer!

Turn 423, 1826 AD: Gandhi's Privateer (6.00) vs Stalin's Frigate 19 (St. Petersburg) (10.40)
Turn 423, 1826 AD: Combat Odds: 3.4%
Turn 423, 1826 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 423, 1826 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 423, 1826 AD: Unknown's Privateer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 423, 1826 AD: Unknown's Privateer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 423, 1826 AD: Unknown's Privateer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 423, 1826 AD: Stalin's Frigate 19 (St. Petersburg) is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 423, 1826 AD: Unknown's Privateer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 423, 1826 AD: Stalin's Frigate 19 (St. Petersburg) has defeated Unknown's Privateer!

Turn 424, 1828 AD: Nicolaus Copernicus (Great Scientist) has been born in New York (Roosevelt)!

Turn 426, 1832 AD: Smolensk has been founded.
Turn 426, 1832 AD: Claude Monet (Great Artist) has been born in Yaroslavl' (Stalin)!
Turn 426, 1832 AD: William Shakespeare (Great Artist) has been born in Paris (De Gaulle)!

Turn 427, 1834 AD: Dante Alighieri (Great Artist) has been born in Nanjing (Mao Zedong)!

Turn 428, 1836 AD: The borders of Smolensk have expanded!
Turn 428, 1836 AD: Stalin's Golden Age has ended...

Turn 429, 1838 AD: De Gaulle adopts Theocracy!

Turn 430, 1840 AD: De Gaulle has made peace with Roosevelt!

Turn 431, 1841 AD: You have discovered Electricity!
Turn 431, 1841 AD: You have trained a Settler in Yakutsk. Work has now begun on a Bank.
Turn 431, 1841 AD: Churchill adopts Free Market!

Turn 432, 1842 AD: Nebuchadrezzar II (Great General) has been born in New York (Roosevelt)!
Turn 432, 1842 AD: Mao Zedong has made peace with Roosevelt!

Turn 433, 1843 AD: Roosevelt adopts Free Market!
Turn 433, 1843 AD: Albert Einstein (Great Scientist) has been born in Rostov (Gandhi)!

Turn 434, 1844 AD: The borders of Yakutsk have expanded!

Turn 436, 1846 AD: Orenburg has been founded.
Turn 436, 1846 AD: Yaroslavl' celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!

Turn 437, 1847 AD: Yaroslavl' celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!

Turn 438, 1848 AD: The borders of Orenburg are about to expand.
Turn 438, 1848 AD: Stalin's Frigate 19 (St. Petersburg) (9.60) vs Barbarian's Galley (2.40)
Turn 438, 1848 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 438, 1848 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 438, 1848 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 438, 1848 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 438, 1848 AD: Stalin's Frigate 19 (St. Petersburg) is hit for 10 (90/100HP)
Turn 438, 1848 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 37 (63/100HP)
Turn 438, 1848 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 37 (26/100HP)
Turn 438, 1848 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 37 (0/100HP)
Turn 438, 1848 AD: Stalin's Frigate 19 (St. Petersburg) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!
Turn 438, 1848 AD: Your Frigate 19 (St. Petersburg) has destroyed a Galley!
Turn 438, 1848 AD: The borders of Orenburg have expanded!

Turn 439, 1849 AD: Yekaterinburg will grow to size 13 on the next turn.
Turn 439, 1849 AD: Vladivostok will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 439, 1849 AD: You have discovered Fission!

Turn 440, 1850 AD: Yekaterinburg has grown to size 13.
Turn 440, 1850 AD: Vladivostok has grown to size 8.
Turn 440, 1850 AD: Krasnoyarsk has been founded.
Turn 440, 1850 AD: Yakutsk will grow to size 12 on the next turn.

DG is in war mode, not sure who it is... I build 4 airships for reco, they are quite usefull to spy Ais. Added some fregates and muskets too.
HE is up in Novgorod. iirc we still lack one theater for the globe.
3 new cities settled (oil/fish/whale, 2* clams, 2*clams/fish... dye was taken by the time I shipped a settler )
tech path: we can start on rocketery or AL but then we would be doing research AIs have already done. Or we can tech steam power and try to trade for at least rifling/steel. This needs to find a way to bring the AIs to pleased. Maybe some more gifts are in order?
civics: we need to remind to switch off pacifism in the next GA... speaking of which, we got an artist out of Yaro, so we can use it with the spy to start a GA instead of burning a scientist.

I will post pics in a couple of minutes.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Spoiler more pics :

Hoping to be able to build nukes by monday/tuesday

 

[babybluepants]

Wow! Nice set, dude.

Medicine is next on the bulb path. What do we do with our next 2 GS? Academy in Yaro would be worth 40bpt, joining in Moscow about 30. If we pop an artist or engineer in Moscow, we could also switch to merchants in Yaro for another golden age later, but that would reduce base research substantially.

Tech path is awkward now. I'm leaning towards self-teching Rifling, then trading for Steel and continuing on to Rocketry. Do we know that we can trade for Rifling? No trade diplo bonus with Church yet, so maybe with a gift, but not before someone else discovers it, right?

I think we should build MP away from Moscow, as it's generating half of our beakers. Novgorod could do it in time.

 

[mdy]

The AI's won't trade rifling/steel because not enough other CIV's have them yet so giving them gifts will not help.

Tech wise I'm thinking of:

steam power-corporation-assembly line-steel-rifling-artillery-rocketry

This would give some time for techs like steel/rifling to become available to trade and will give us factories/ironworks.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Actually, seeing as Churchill doesn't want to trade steel, I believe 3 AIs need to have the tech in order to break monopoly. So we'll need to wait a bit to be able to trade So maybe you are right about going rifling... though it's a pain as we'll need steam power anyway for AL (would really be cool to skip rifling/Steel research).

Not sure about the GS, depending on time to finish, saving for more GA may be best?

What do u mean about Moscow? I think it should stay this way for a while as it doesn't need anything and can't grow because of caps. Thinking of it, I would gift some unused farms to St pet so it can grow more. Novgorod can build all the troops we need before nukes.

What nukes will we use? any thoughts on tactical vs ICBMs?

edit: bit of xpost with mdy... 100% agree with what u said.

 

[babybluepants]

I think we should tech Rifling next. Church beelined it to unlock his UU, the others might not for some time. They could actually tech Steam beforehand. We could beeline Rocketry (assuming Steel trade), in 26t and the AL beeline takes 21t - faster accounting for GS's coming. By then Novgorod could complete MP, and then we smoke Gandhi and extort Steam / Corp.

 

[mdy]

A Academy in yaro does look like the best use for our next GS. The second would probably be best off settled in Moscow. By the time we get our third we will probably be close to the time we will want to start our next golden age with a GS/Spy. The artist could be saved to bulb radio. This will allow us to build submarines to carry tactical nukes which will be a lot more hammer efficient.

If I remember correctly forts can be used to house tactical nukes. If so building forts on the hills SE of Moscow would allow us to hit all of Gandhi's cities on our continent without subs so radio could be delayed until after rocketry without any cost (if we go after him first).

 

[mdy]

One other stray thought: Would it be worthwhile to build the Kremlin to make rushing more efficient?

Does this bonus also apply to drafting?

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Not to drafting, only US and slavery. I believe Police State or rep will be better anyway without cottages.
iirc, Yaro can use an observatory as well, didn't build it right away to finish fission with current funds.

NOt sure on the tech path BBP, I believe most AIs (DG/Mao) will tech rifling rather fast.

I like the submarines/tactical nuke idea ... I believe we'll have a lot of fun in the end game

 

[shyuhe]

Kremlin is worth the hammers if we can get it, as it'll give us cheaper whipped nukes. We definitely want to go with tactical nukes as they're cheaper.

We should save the artist. We can use it to bring a city out of disorder immediately, making a good city instantly productive (I'm thinking Delhi?). I would rather burn a GS on a golden age and save the artist. Yes some tiles may be nuked, but I think it's worth saving the GA. Or we can use the GA in a later golden age too.

The AI will almost certainly tech SM before rifling unless it's an aggressive civ at war - possibly De Gaulle. But one civ isn't enough to pick up the tech, so I think we should go get rifling and on towards rocketry for now. Hopefully we can pick up steel in trade somewhere... I'm honestly not too concerned about getting factories/coal plants any more. A factory alone costs as much as a tac nuke I think police state with our current civic combination will do for the time being, at least until we grind Gandhi down.

Two more thoughts - we can start building Manhattan. I think we should, since it'll take a while to complete and a straight beeline to rocketry is about 30 turns away. I'm estimating here, but I think we want to finish the next GS in Moscow (~12 or 13 turns I think), then start construction on Manhattan. Which also means that we won't get IW up... but I think we should press on without it via the whip. I would toss a GE into Moscow's pool as well, in hopes that we can rush Kremlin for better whipping.

There are three big cities of his that we'll want to take on the first wave, but the others can wait a bit more. Moscow with its current production capacity can build a tac every 5 turn, so 15 turns for the three cities we want. In the meantime, we will have to whip/build an army in the other cities. Given the time table we're looking at, I think cossacks may be our best option if we can get a decent deal for horses. Otherwise we'll just have to use rifles?

 

[shyuhe]

Also, our remaining teching is relatively minimal, or at least not needed super fast. The techs I see us needing are rifling -- artillery -- rocketry -- combustion line -- radio. So I wouldn't bother building an academy. Settling in Moscow for the hammer bonus isn't bad, but I'd rather save them for more golden ages.

Edit: Mao will give us horses for our spare silver + copper. We don't need copper so I think we want the deal. It'll let us build cossacks for faster strikes against Gandhi.

 

[babybluepants]

^ You up now? When can you play?

Agree on Rifling, once again. I think the academy should be worth it still, but maybe you're right. We should be able to trade for steel. We might have to gift SM to someone and trade Bio. I'm still for building Manhattan somewhere else, and letting Moscow pull our research to Rocketry.

War: I was thinking we should clear the home continent immediately, then take peace with Gandhi and go after Mao. We can hit Bombay from St. Pete, and go forward from there. A fort south of Moscow is a good suggestion for Rostov.

GP: Bombing the GA sounds wasteful to me. We'll need different types for golden ages. GS+Spy, then GS+GA+something? Especially if we're not doing an academy, we could switch to running some merchants in Yaro maybe. I'm kinda hoping we pop something other than GS from Moscow, though, in which case we just keep running scientists.

 

[shyuhe]

I can play later tonight through rifling, but we'll need steel to tech artillery -- rocketry. Assuming it opens up in trade, I'm guessing nobody objects to trading SM (and biology) to get steel? Or would people prefer that we trade physics for steel? Once we clarify that, I can play through rocketry.

I think our SW city is our next best hammer city. We can build Manhattan there.

I agree on the war plan, although we may be able to take peace after taking his central 4 cities, depending on how the culture looks. Gandhi will be crippled after we take those cities so we can finish the rest off later...

Maybe we should just save the GA for now for a future golden age? We can revisit the issue of bombing vs. golden age when the opportunity presents itself, since we'll save the GA in both situations. Yaro should switch to merchants after its next GS, and I'll hire an engineer in Moscow in hopes of getting lucky.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

I'm honestly not too concerned about getting factories/coal plants any more. A factory alone costs as much as a tac nuke I think police state with our current civic combination will do for the time being, at least until we grind Gandhi down.

I agree with the conclusion but I don't understand the argument about factories... that's because they are as cheap as a nuke that I would build them fast, they will double our production...and we are going to produce a lot of nukes... but i would kill/grab most of Gandhi first

Is whipping the consensus for late game production? We are laying down workshops since some sets and it seems counterproductive to go that route now (need to farm back every tiles, build the Kremlin, switch civics...)...

More comments later

 

[babybluepants]

@shyuhe, that all sounds good to me. I'm cool with trading either Phys or Bio, whatever the team consensus is. You should play ahead tonight. If the trade opens up, I'm for playing through Rocketry.

 

[shyuhe]

I think we'll have to build factories after finishing off Gandhi. But I'd rather pick up his cities in a hurry first

I think we'll be building most of our nukes. As I mentioned earlier, Moscow can build one every 5 turns or so, so the rest of our cities can concentrate on conventional military units.

Global warming will likely become an issue though - not sure how to get around it.

 

[mdy]

I think it would be better to trade the AI's biology as it puts them further away from nukes.

Whipping will only be effective in our GP farm and perhaps some of our smaller secondary cities. Other large cities such as Moscow should be better off with workshops.

 

[shyuhe]

Playing shortly. Looks like Novgorod can build Kremlin without hurting our research too much so I'll give it a go.

 

[shyuhe]

Played through rifling, no luck on steel. Do we want to tech it to continue towards rocketry (my vote) or go steam power in hopes that we can get steel in a trade? I'll wait a bit before continuing play, but will continue towards rocketry unless I hear otherwise.

edit: We also don't have MT so no cossacks for now I'll cancel the trade with Mao after 10 turns and re-negotiate it. Looks like we'll be using rifles for now, maybe paratroopers later.