SGOTM 10 - Peanut

[AVN]

Nice progress Mathilda

But there is still a lot of work to do.
Apart from settling this is mainly concentrating on the worker priorities, so that we get the growth, research speed and shields which are critical in this game (in the short term).

Settling:
I agree that the current settler can move to the warrior and found a new city there. It will get access to the lambs (which are unfortunately very difficult to irrigate, I should have founded Nottingham next to the lambs ) and to some coastal tiles. Nice position with good possibilities in the future.

The next 2 settlers can move to the coast next to Hastings. One next to the river and the fishes, and a second one 3 tiles more to the SE next to the cow. Probably the second city (next to the cow) should be founded first, so that if we are beaten by the AI for that location he can settle next to the river instead.

Other settlers can be used for settling the peninsula in the west.

OK then the worker tasks.
Our most interesting cities for growth and creating production/commerce are atm Coventry and Canterbury. Corruption is relatively low there and they have quite a number of workable tiles. So these two cities need to get the main attention of our workers.

The worker next to Coventry should chop the forest next to the game, irrigate and road it, and after that irrigate and road the sheep.
To use the shields from the chop effectively I think it's best to change the current build of Coventry to a barracks. And because there is so much work to do around Coventry (once the sheep are irrigated, it will grow fast) the worker can use the help from his collegue which is built now in York.

Around Canterbury : The floodplain needs to be irrigated and roaded asap.
The worker between Canterbury and Nottingham can do that (after eventually roading the current tile so that there is a road between the capitol and Nottingham). After that he can continue irrigating to the lambs NW of Nottingham. Again he can use help for this job. The new worker in Nottingham can do that.
The worker currently roading the horse hill (please don't mine it yet, we aren't going to use this tile soon) can after finishing that, road the BG and mine it.

The new worker we will get in Hastings can help in getting a road between York and Hastings. Improving other tiles doesn't help much atm, because we will lose the shields/gold to corruption.

As a rule of thumb I think that we need 2 workers/city on this map, preferably build in our most corrupt towns. A more detailed calculation can be made later in the game.

Don't worry about building too many workers. We can always join them in our cities, once we don't have useful jobs for them anymore.

OK, that's my advise for the short term.

 

[AVN]

I just got back, but it's pretty late. I'll catch up on the game and post any suggestions. Randy hasn't played yet; I'm inclined to wait to play until after his turnset Monday night. (In a pinch, I could play tomorrow, but I don't see much reason to hurry a turn set in.)

OK, hope you enjoyed the camping

That makes the roster :

Randy : UP
civ_steve : On deck
Mathilda : Already played her 2nd turnset
Keith
Bahzell
AVN

Randy : Success

 

[AVN]

Regarding long term strategy.

I have changed my mind a little bit on this after reading Mathilda's reply and contribution (thanks , by such input we will find the best possible strategy for our game).

I agree now that we should go for Republic once we can revolt. It will give us the fastest research. Later on in the game we can revolt then to Monarchy atm we need/want to attack the BBB's.

The faster research with Republic will compensate more than enough the loss of turns caused by the second revolt, if we can delay it (the 2nd revolt to Monarchy/Communism) long enough.

This means that we need to make sure that we don't get war weariness from our war against the barbs as long as possible. (this is critical in this strategy, as soon as we get serious WW of that war, we have to give up our Republic).

This means delaying our attack on the BBB's as long as possible.

But what's the right moment to attack ?

That question is very difficult to answer for me.

In case there are one tile islands on the map and the BBB's are able to settle on them we need to reasearch to Amphibic War (or does someone see another solution to this ?) and in that case it's probably best to delay the attack till we are somewhere in the Industrial Ages.

In case there are no one tile islands we want to attack as soon as we have discovered Navigation.

Because attacking them means that we have to change government at that moment (WW of that attack will be great) good timing is the critical factor in this game.

My ideas for now are (regarding LT strategy) :
- Research as fast as possible to Astronomy/Navigation.
- Check the oceans to see if there are one tile islands.
- In case there are one tile islands on which the BBB's have settled, leave the oceans to them for the moment (to prevent WW) and research as fast as possible towards Amphibic War. In case there are no one tile islands, attack with the necessary forces asap. (this means we should have a catapult/knights army ready at that moment, if possible).

The long term strategy will IMHO determine which teams will be scoring high in this competition, so it's important to discuss.

More input of others on this (or continued discussion) is really appreciated

 

[Bahzell]

I'd have to say that I agree with your strategy's AVN with one exception.

And that exception being that we do attack the Barb nation's mainland asap even if they do have 1 tile city islands. Way I'd go about this would be to get a beachhead on the barb mainland and hold it till we do have the technology to kick their arse's. The makeup of the defending forces will have to be a balance between defensive units, offensive units and bombard units. With the right mix we can hold the beachhead we make/capture and probably get some armies while doing it.

Only question I do have is how does the Technology Theives work for the Barbs? Does it give the barbs any tech thats researched by someone else or is it like the GLib?

When we do start sending ships out to explore for the Barb nation, I'd suggest sending them in pairs as I think the barb ships are more than likely to be a bit of a nasty surprise if we aren't prepared. Better to be over prepared than under prepared.

 

[Keith Larson]

Just wanted to let everyone know that I am still alive. Last week was a killer for me at work and it all I could do to get my civ4 SGOTM turn set out. I am leaving for a conference this afternoon and will not be back home until late Thursday PM. It look like my turn will not come up again until then, but I just wanted to keep everyone posted.

 

[Randy]

Ok I've got it and my disc, I'll play tonight after 12am.

 

[Randy]

Turn 0-1500BC
Move settler north.

IBT
York -> worker -> archer
Hastings -> worker -> worker

Turn 1-1475BC
Warwick founded starts a worker

IBT
London builds settler.
Incan city of Tiwanaku builds The Colossus.

Turn 2-1450BC
Adjust science slider.

IBT
Nottingham -> worker -> archer
Byzantines are building The Pyramids
Dutch are building The Pyramids
Sumerians are building The Temple of Artemis
Sumerians city of Ur builds The Oracle

Turn 3-1425BC
Incan warriors are all over our land.

IBT
Hook up horses
Inca are building The Pyramids

Turn 4-1400BC
Adjust science slider.
Move workers

IBT
We learn Code of Laws -> Philosophy in 10 turns

Turn 5-1375BC
Not much just some mm

IBT
London builds settler.

Turn 6-1350BC
Adjust science slider. 9 until Philosophy

IBT
York archer -> settler
Coventry archer -> settler
Inca are building The Temple of Artemis
Inca got Philosophy CRAP.

Turn 7-1325BC
Trade Byzantines CoL for Horseback Riding and 3gp
Trade Dutch CoL for Mathematics and 26gp
Trade Sumerians Writing and Iron Working for Polytheism and 23gp
Inca gives spice and 88gp for CoL, They are up Construction and Philosophy.

We will have Philosophy in 7 turns so I took the above deal instead of giving CoL and 120gp for Philosophy. I hope it was the best choice.

IBT
Nothing

Turn 8-1300BC
Moved a warrior next to a barb hut

IBT
A note came up that said “Our military plans have been stolen” I’ve never seen that before is this a C3C thing or Barb Nation thing?

Byzantines found a city by the river I was heading for.

Turn 9-1275BC
Kill barb village (in far north) we get 25gp.

IBT
London builds settler.
We see a Dutch curragh, I thought the AI did not build them?

Turn 10-1250BC
I did not move many of the units. Also Canterbury will finish the barracks next turn. Is that what we want to build or is it a prebuild? I would rather have a temple to try and flip Machu picchu.

 

[Randy]

Here is the save
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/Peanut_SG010_BC1250_01.SAV

 

[AVN]

Only question I do have is how does the Technology Theives work for the Barbs? Does it give the barbs any tech thats researched by someone else or is it like the GLib?

Based on my (limited) knowledge of the editor I should say that this wonder works like the GLib, but it doesn't become obsolete with a certain technology.
So it will be effective till the end of the game.

Wonders, even modded wonders can only have a limited number of effects, which are (the effects) hardcoded in the game. One of the possible effects is that one get a tech which is learnt by two other known nations (as with the GLib). The possibility that one get a free tech once it is learnt by only one nation doesn't exist in the editor.

I hope this answer your question.
Otherwise please don't hesitate to ask for any further explanation.

A note came up that said “Our military plans have been stolen” I’ve never seen that before is this a C3C thing or Barb Nation thing?

This is clearly a BBB thing.
We have a spy in our capitol and he has told his leader where our troops are.
So the barbs can do espionage missions. Interesting.

My guess is that this was related to the barb tech with which the barbs started the game (doesn't mean that this was the only thing they could do with this barb tech, maybe they received other advantages too).

I don't expect that the BBB's have already researched Espionage, because in that case they wouldn't need the tech stealing wonder.

But the barbs will have access to all spy missions, like for example sabotage (although that's very expensive, so I shouldn't worry too much about it).

@all. I'll comment more in detail on the game (strategy for next turnset) later
tonight.

Regarding the long term strategy. I really hope that more people will share their thoughts about that. Hopefully together we will find the best strategy.

@civ_steve.
Up to you now. Success

 

[civ_steve]

OK. I'll post a 'got-it' and will probably plan to play in about 24 hours. I caught a cold while out camping, and its really knocking me down right now (and I can't miss work - major deadline approaching!)

Since the Barbs are at war with everyone, that probably means they have contact with everyone, so that would satisfy the '2 civs knowing the same tech' rule that the GLib uses, so any Tech we and someone else know, they will probably know. Presents an interesting thought - perhaps we should wipe our island clear of all other occupants before we take on the Barbs? Possible problem is the Barbs are so powerful by themselves that they out-research us while we're doing this, putting us even farther behind with NO allies.

Regarding CoL - I would have traded it upon learning it. Gives the AI the option to take Republic as free Tech upon learning Philosophy; which gives us potential cheaper research cost and possible trade for it.

We have Tech lead on everyone except Inca - they appear pretty boxed in on the map, and would be an excellant gang-up target. Either way, I don't think they can grow too much, so we should catch up and pass eventually.

To avoid WW we will have to build a lot of siege weapons - Catapults, Treb, Cannons and Artilley, when available. With the huge defense of the Barb Guard, they will need a lot of pinging to take down, and they would be good defensive cover if the Barbs chose to send a stack towards our city. I'm not opposed to a Late - Middle Age assault to establish a beachhead; if they send too much and look to overwhelm us we can avoid WW by Sailing Units back or disbanding them then either Abandoning the city or giving it to one of our Friends. (We would have to avoid Teleporting our units back to our capital if we give the city away.)

Also, the AI doesn't use Artillery well, either. Once those are available to us, we could push an offensive against the Barbs, so at the latest Replaceable Parts. This is not far ahead of Tanks in C3C. And if we need AmphibWar, then we have to research to there anyway.

Regarding cities and current builds -
London - a few more Settlers
Canterbury - Barracks, and then Vet Horses
Nottingham - I'd rather build another Worker than a Reg Archer
WarWick - finish Worker, then perhaps another
York - I'd switch from Settler to Barracks; takes 20 turns to grow back the 2 pop points; after Barracks, Vet Horses
Hastings - Worker then another
Coventry - switch to Barracks, then Vet Horses

Agree with AVN - aim for 2 Workers/city; there's a lot of terrain to improve

Settlers - we have 3 on the board right now, and 2 more to build in the next turn set

1) I'd send Settler on Cattle S,S,SE to settle on coastal grassland with 2 BG's adjacent

2.) Settler in Hastings go S,S,W to settle on Coastal Jungle, get Cow right away, and 2 Fish and BG upon expansion

3.) Settler in London, off to the West Peninsula to gain the coastal Grassland with 2 BG

Next two Settlers, probably off to claim remaining West Peninsula - Coastal plains that can get Whales on expansion, and coastal plains that gets Rocks on expansion.

or ... try to settle North up the coast and grab the Wheat and 2 BG's from the Sumerians.

I would consider mining the lambs near Warwick

I would also establish a few embassies, 2 or 3 at the moment, and sign ROP to get better relations and faster scouting through the AI territory.

Those are my suggestions and thoughts; let me know what you think.

(PS, oh yes, research! After Phil, in 3 turns, on to Republic or go to Literature; I think those are the two best choices. With Map-making and Currency still out, going for Republic will probably be decently timed for entering the Middle Ages via trade. We're probably not in a position to be building Libraries yet so I would lean towards Republic)

 

[AVN]

Since the Barbs are at war with everyone, that probably means they have contact with everyone, so that would satisfy the '2 civs knowing the same tech' rule that the GLib uses, so any Tech we and someone else know, they will probably know. Presents an interesting thought - perhaps we should wipe our island clear of all other occupants before we take on the Barbs? Possible problem is the Barbs are so powerful by themselves that they out-research us while we're doing this, putting us even farther behind with NO allies.

Our continent seems quite small with limited expansion possibilities for the AI too. So I don't expect real support from AI allies in this game.
Therefore I think your idea to wipe our island clear of all other occupants is an interesting thought.

We have Tech lead on everyone except Inca - they appear pretty boxed in on the map, and would be an excellant gang-up target. Either way, I don't think they can grow too much, so we should catch up and pass eventually.

I share your expectations on this.

To avoid WW we will have to build a lot of siege weapons - Catapults, Treb, Cannons and Artilley, when available. With the huge defense of the Barb Guard, they will need a lot of pinging to take down, and they would be good defensive cover if the Barbs chose to send a stack towards our city. I'm not opposed to a Late - Middle Age assault to establish a beachhead; if they send too much and look to overwhelm us we can avoid WW by Sailing Units back or disbanding them then either Abandoning the city or giving it to one of our Friends. (We would have to avoid Teleporting our units back to our capital if we give the city away.)

Also, the AI doesn't use Artillery well, either. Once those are available to us, we could push an offensive against the Barbs, so at the latest Replaceable Parts. This is not far ahead of Tanks in C3C. And if we need AmphibWar, then we have to research to there anyway.

Possibly the best solution.
But I prefer we build enough ships to evacuate all our forces if necessary.
It would be a pity if we had to disband large stacks of artillery.

Regarding cities and current builds -
London - a few more Settlers
Canterbury - Barracks, and then Vet Horses
Nottingham - I'd rather build another Worker than a Reg Archer
WarWick - finish Worker, then perhaps another
York - I'd switch from Settler to Barracks; takes 20 turns to grow back the 2 pop points; after Barracks, Vet Horses
Hastings - Worker then another
Coventry - switch to Barracks, then Vet Horses

Absolutely agree with this.
I strongly prefer not to build regular units anymore (please build only vets) and horsemen are much better in this game than archers (horsemen are fast and they can be upgraded to knights and cavalry).

Settlers - we have 3 on the board right now, and 2 more to build in the next turn set

1) I'd send Settler on Cattle S,S,SE to settle on coastal grassland with 2 BG's adjacent

2.) Settler in Hastings go S,S,W to settle on Coastal Jungle, get Cow right away, and 2 Fish and BG upon expansion

3.) Settler in London, off to the West Peninsula to gain the coastal Grassland with 2 BG

Next two Settlers, probably off to claim remaining West Peninsula - Coastal plains that can get Whales on expansion, and coastal plains that gets Rocks on expansion.

or ... try to settle North up the coast and grab the Wheat and 2 BG's from the Sumerians.

I'm not happy with 1) and with the wheat position above Sumeria.
They are very far from our capitol which results in difficult defense and very high corruption in the 70%-90% making BG and commercial bonusses almost worthless.

I still like the jungle position where we have access to the 2 fish and 2) is a reasonable spot too.

I prefer to concentrate atm on the peninsula in the west. The AI will probably discover Mapmaking soon and I expect the first galleys with settlers not very much later. Like to have claimed the peninsula before the AI does.

I would consider mining the lambs near Warwick

Can work for the short term, but the plains need to be irrigated anyway to make this core city productive. Hope that this irrigation plan will start soon.

I would also establish a few embassies, 2 or 3 at the moment, and sign ROP to get better relations and faster scouting through the AI territory.

OK, but we should limit those ROP's to 20 turns and NOT continue them.
20 turns should be enough to scout the rest of our continent. After that period I like to have the AI out of our territory.

(PS, oh yes, research! After Phil, in 3 turns, on to Republic or go to Literature; I think those are the two best choices. With Map-making and Currency still out, going for Republic will probably be decently timed for entering the Middle Ages via trade. We're probably not in a position to be building Libraries yet so I would lean towards Republic)

Republic is IMHO the best choice after Philosophy.

 

[Mathilda]

I too like the idea of clearing the AI off the continent.
Just need to leave Sumeria and Byzantines with one city each, for their free techs.
I'd feel a lot more confident about going fighting the BBBs whithout having to worry about basckstabbers.

Generally agree with AVN about city placement. I'd add one on the Sumerian coast, the closest little peninsula (is there a name for a small peninsula?) with the rocks.

Absolutely agree about no more regurlar units, and then horses only.
Let's decide which cities will get barracks and which ones will be building catapults.

And yes to Republic next as well.

We're just brainstorming here a little bit and came agross an idea of what if:
What if the BB is spread over two or more circular continents that are within eachother. A doughnut inside a doughnut. Two tile wide doughnuts, so you have to build new boats for every stage. Doughnut seas teaming with BBB boats. With mountain ranges conveniently placed so that you can never sail direct from town to town but have to always stop in the sea somewhere.
Maybe I'm just getting paranoid, but that COTM23 seemed to be an exercise in that type of world. There seems to be enough space left, looking at the minimap to be able to do that.
So what? Maybe not spend a lot of effort on buildings in London, as capital might have to be jumped at some stage.

 

[AVN]

About catapults.

I don't believe they are usefull/necessary for the wars on our home continent.
Horsemen will do the job faster and catapults have all sorts of limitations in rough terrain, like jungle and mountains.

However I do believe we need them for our war against the BBB's. But then it's best to build them as late as possible in the game to prevent unnecessary unit upkeep costs. So atm we don't need them IMHO.

 

[Randy]

I'd do Republic next.

As for the AI, I'm all for taking out the Inca but I would leave the rest alone for now. I think they can help later with the barbs.

We could get the iron city first.

Remember we have a 20 turn trade deal with them for spice.

I would not build catapults. As this is C3C we may take some.

 

[Bahzell]

I agree with not building catapults at this time and researching Republic next.

I also agree that a war against the Inca would be ideal.

 

[civ_steve]

In general, I think the discussion points are good. We should build up for a near term war with the Inca, but that wont happen until after my turnset, maybe after the next. Getting Embassies with the nearby civs is essential, and with our current Tech lead, getting the alliances should be easy.

I'll play shortly, but my time is limited this morning, and I might have to finish tonight. I'm off.

 

[civ_steve]

Turn 0, 1250 BC
Switch Coventry and York to build Barracks
Switch Nottingham to build Worker
17 more turns to receive Spices from the Inca

Found Embassy with Byzantines for 39 Gold
Constantinople is at 40% Sci, 60% Taxes, so they are hurting for research
68 turns to complete the Pyramids
Barracks built, with 3 Spears

Found Embassy with Maya for 59 Gold
ChichenItza is at 100% Research, and will complete Pyramids in 19 turns
No builds, with 3 Spears defending

hmm, F4 doesn't give me ability to sign ROP, just military alliance

Send Settler in Hastings back to found on West Peninsula
Send Settler in London North to found on small peninsula (peninsulette?)
Send Settler/Warrior South of Hastings West to Jungle on Coast - they see wounded Byz Spear/War

(IBT Incan Warriors head back to homelands
Incan Settler/Spear shows up SE of Hastings
Byz Spear/Warrior had NW to Jungle river near 2 fishes, on coast)

Turn 1, 1225 BC
Hastings and Warwick complete Workers and start on another
Canterbury builds our first Barracks, and starts on a Horseman

Mapmaking is known by several AI
Trade Poly and 15 Gold to Maya for MapMaking; we also sign ROP deal
Trade Poly to Netherlands for 89 Gold and 1 gpt
Sign ROP with Byzantines

Found Embassy with Sumerians, 80% Science, 26 turns to complete Temple of Artemis
3 Endiku Warriors stationed
They have Barracks, Temple and have built the Oracle

(IBT Incans head North, a new barb camp perhaps, or war with Sumerians?)

Turn 2, 1200 BC
London is size5, adjust Lux to 10%; take Mined BG from Coventry to grow in 2
Adjust Sci down to 20%; Phil still in 1 and +21 Gold

Sign ROP with Sumerians

Found Newcastle in Coast near Cattle (SW from Hastings), start on Temple

(IBT Incans head north, and some enter Sumerian territory
A Dutch Warrior is in our West Peninsula)

Turn 3, 1175 BC
Learn Philosophy, next Republic in 30 turns
Give Mined BG back to Canterbury, as London uses bare, roaded Grassland for final growth

(IBT Incans are now clustered around Nottingham ... hmm
He would violate borders and break a 20 turn treaty ... no choice but to risk it
Barb warrior appears to West, to our scouting Archer)

Turn 4, 1150 BC
London builds Settler; Adjust citizen in Forest to Irrigated Game; Sci to 100%
Settler off to Western Peninsula

Archer does in Barb Warrior, but is redlined, barb camp is seen
Worker has finished mining Lamb/Hill, now is mining a grassland to get 6th shield for York
Workers mining Olives near Nottingham
Workers roading to Newcastle, via Cattle
Worker chopping Forest to help Coventry build Barracks

(IBT Inca enter Sumer territory)

Turn 5, 1125 BC
Dutch Warrior is where Settler wants to found, so wait a turn
Retreat red-lined Archer to heal
Settler has made it up coast to small peninsula
See our first part of the Netherlands SE of Maya

Turn 6, 1100 BC
Oxford founded up the Coast, begins a Worker
London is size5, adjust Lux to 10% and take Mined BG from Canterbury
Dutch Warrior moves out of the Way, so Settler/Warrior move to Grassland target

Turn 7, 1075 BC
York finishes Barracks, next Horseman
Liverpool founded in West Peninsula near 2 BG, start on Worker
London gives mined BG back to Canterbury, using Grassland

(IBT Barbarian Stronghold completes Pyramids)

Turn 8, 1050 BC
London Settler, another; adjust Citizen from Forest to Irrigated Game; Sci to 100%
Coventry is size 3 and goes into CD (oops); change one citizen to Scientist
Newcastle (with cows) is size2; give them BG (still only 1 Shield); workers mine BG
Olives are mined near Nottingham; start mine on 2nd Olive

(IBT Byzantines cascade to Museum of Mausollus and complete it
Incan Spear/Settler moving around hills on Coast to our SW)

Turn 9, 1025 BC
Canturbury is size 4; assign a Scientist until Horseman finishes (2 turns)

(IBT Sumeria must have done in a Barb camp up their way cause Inca and Maya started heading back)

Turn 10, 1000 BC
London is size5; take mined BG from Canterbury; adj Lux to 10%
At 10%, Canterbury's 4th citizen can work horses
and... Coventry's 3rd citizen can work Coast

End of Turnlog

3 more cities founded, 2 Settlers on their way (to West Peninsula). Should found NE and W of where our Warrior is out there.

Incan Settler/Spear is on the coast to our SW, so they will probably found in Forest or on Hills; there's still 1 or 2 more sites for us to found there so we should keep Settlers coming from London for a few more turns. After that, London can Spam out Workers.

Recommend Irrigating Plains SW of London's Game, then onto Sheep to help Coventry out; after that those Workers can Chop or road or whatever.

2 Warriors 2 spaces NW of Canterbury can irrigate the space their on (already started) then Sheep, and North to Warwick.

Horsemen are about to start popping up for us, but it will probably not be until after we learn Republic before we can start the attack on the Inca.

Mathilda - already played
Keith Larson <--- you're up (out of town right now)
Bahzell - on deck, be ready to switch with Keith if he can't take it
AVN
Randy
civ_steve - Just played

Here is the 1000 BC Save.

 

[AVN]

Nice turnset Steve

My suggestions for the next player are :

1) Establish an embassy with the Incas. I don't like that big black hole in the map we have atm

2) Connect Oxford with the Sumerian wine. Hopefully we can trade for that wine once we have that trade connection.

3) Atm we have 2 settlers for the Northern part of the peninsula. And we can use the settler we are currently building for the jungle part for the peninsula, but I don't see interesting spots for other settlers. So IMHO this should be the last settler we are building in London. After that we can continue building workers there.

4) I like to build a harbor in Newcastle, instead of the temple.

 

[Mathilda]

Keith seems to be away, so I think you're up Bahzell.

 

[Bahzell]

I'll give him till tomorrow, if he hasn't grabbed it by then I'll grab it.