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SGOTM 10 - Smurkz

Rolo! Renata! 5 Smurkz players posting in the space of 24 hours! Woo hoo! Not.

Thanks, BL, more useful hard numbers. Yeah, those AI that have Edu may well be teching to Lib'ism now. But on the other hand, maybe that gives us an opportunity! OK, I'm getting so far outside the box I may not be able to find my way back, but... Seaside could run artists to give us a Great Artist to bulb Nationalism (partially, with 2/3 the beaker yield of a Sci). We then switch Seaside to scientists, finish off the manual teching on Nat'ism, use our Great Eng on the Taj, temporarily switch to a religion and Pacifism during the Golden Age to get another +100% on GPP rate (do religion and civic swap waiting periods interfere with each other?), trade for Edu and Printing Press (OK, we need somebody to get PP for us), and then research/bulb for Lib'ism. Piece of cake!

Well, maybe not. If it doesn't work out, we still have Nat'ism, which is a nice tech to shop around, particularly in the AIs are in a race to Lib'ism. And we get the Taj.

Surely there's some nugget of useful sanity in what I've spewn over the past few hours. :confused:
 
Rolo! Renata! 5 Smurkz players posting in the space of 24 hours! Woo hoo!

They posted? Or have you totally lost it? :p

Thanks, BL, more useful hard numbers. Yeah, those AI that have Edu may well be teching to Lib'ism now. But on the other hand, maybe that gives us an opportunity! OK, I'm getting so far outside the box I may not be able to find my way back, but... Seaside could run artists to give us a Great Artist to bulb Nationalism (partially, with 2/3 the beaker yield of a Sci). We then switch Seaside to scientists, finish off the manual teching on Nat'ism, use our Great Eng on the Taj, temporarily switch to a religion and Pacifism during the Golden Age to get another +100% on GPP rate (do religion and civic swap waiting periods interfere with each other?), trade for Edu and Printing Press (OK, we need somebody to get PP for us), and then research/bulb for Lib'ism. Piece of cake!

Yup, you've lost it! :p

Problem with Pacifism is our military upkeep at this juncture increases by another 19 GPT although the GA would offset this. Artists only give 1578 beakers which is roughly half of Nationalism and then the GS's are delayed even further. If St. Pete pops a GS with the sped up GP pool instead of a GE this shoots the GA plan in the foot. Seaside doesn't have Confucianism, so we'd have to switch to Islam or build a missionary before the GA and hope the religion spreads. We'd need four revolts during the GA (not revolts, but you know what I mean) (into Pac, into religion, then out of Pac, out of religion) since we can't do religion and civics simultaneously. Fortunately GA's are 10 turns, so swapping this many times is possible. And like you said we're banking on an AI teching PP for us and be willing to trade it for Nationalism for it while assuming the AI we traded Nationalism for Education hasn't swung Nationalism to the guy teching PP for us! The only relatively sane idea is rushing Taj in St. Pete with the GE (assuming it pops) which I could get behind. Wow, what were we talking about before that spawned this? :lol: :crazyeye:

In other news, chopping the work boat first appears to be the smarter move in Horsetropolis as it'll get a faster head start on pop and thus future scientists. This turn build a library, next turn switch to the work boat and chop one forest, then next turn chop the remaining forest for the library. We could have chopped out the library in one turn, but then the first work boat would have had to wait 6 turns and that comes out to a 12 food difference in the bin. Finish the library, then build another work boat, timing the construction of the work boat to be one turn before the borders pop. To do this you'd have to switch the engineer specialist to a scientist specialist at some point during the construction of the second work boat.
 
Er, um, I think I was looking at the first page of this thread and thinking it was the latest. Funny, Rolo's and Renata's comments seemed to make some sense. :lol: Have I mentioned that my weekend was rather stressful and I didn't get much sleep?

Ah, but I've had my afternoon coffee now. Yup, running Artists doesn't make sense. But since we have so few beakers invested in Astro, and as you've explained it won't be worth a whole lot to us for awhile, and it nixes whatever slim hope we have of winning the Lib'ism race, I'm now leaning toward switching to Nat'lism. It seems like pretty good trade bait for other techs and it would let us build the Taj. Ack, right about no Confusion in Seaside. Do we have a monastery in Moscow? Might be worth it for the 10% beaker bonus and to build a missionary for Seaside. If Seaside is running lots of specialists during the Taj GA, I think it would be worth it to temporarily switch to Pacifism/Confusion.

So, are you done playing for awhile, or do you want to keep going? I'm busy tonight but should have some time tomorrow if I need to write up a plan. Gonna post the save to the Progress page? ;)
 
I'll probably play a handful more turns while I have time then upload. I just want to get Horsetropolis moving. A few things we should decide before I continue.

I've taken a look at what we need for nukes, and surprisingly we don't need too many techs. Astronomy -> Printing Press -> Scientific Method -> Physics (free GS possible) -> Electricity -> Fission (Manhattan Project -> Tactical Nukes) -> then Radio (submarines, can transport tactical nukes). Notice how this coincides with the scientist's bulb path... The sooner we get rolling on that tech path, the sooner we get nukes and the sooner we can start invading people. This should be our priority from here on out, seeing as it's the only way for us to win the game. If we can get this fast enough, we can probably knock some civs out before they settle the islands.

There's really only one detour I'd consider for this and it's to Constitution for Representation. However, the AI seem to prioritize this tech path (for Democracy), so trading for this may be possible, especially given our tech path. The main problem becomes Emancipation when other civs adopt it. We either go for Constitution early to max out our rep beakers before unhappiness sets in, or we ignore that path completely (only stopping to trade for it) and bulb/tech our way straight to Fission. As we pop GS's the time between each will take longer, so we'll need some 'brute force' teching as you put it which would be Academies and Representation to get there faster.

So I'm torn. Do we deviate from the path and hook up Representation, knowing full well the AI are right behind us and will switch to Emancipation as soon as they tech Democracy? Or do we say the hell with it, and save those beakers for the Path techs and brute force/bulb our way straight to Fission?

Nationalism costs 2721 beakers, and Constitution costs 3024, so by running Representation we'd need to make up 5745 beakers. Now by itself I'd say no way, but you'd have to factor in the Golden Age from Nationalism and the +100% GPP rate in all of the cities. Throw in a quick switch to Pacifism and religion made possible by the GA and this number increases even further.

St. Pete finishes a theatre next turn and could produce a missionary in four turns afterward for Seaside. Moscow should build the library in three turns next - +25% beakers for here is nothing to sneeze at and the missionary from St. Pete is only going to be one turn behind Moscow if Moscow built a monastery -> missionary instead. After the library in Moscow then I'd build the next monastery to get another 10% for pretty cheap.

Broberg finishes its work boat next turn, then starts a library. Continue to let the city grow, we're going to use almost all of the pop once CS is in to run scientists during the GA. The two caravels we have escort the WB over to Seaside - it's not ideal, but 2 vs 2 damaged Gandhi caravels is probably the best odds we're going to get for a while. The extra food in Seaside for the upcoming GA will help oodles - we want to get this city growing as big as possible before Taj is in.

When National Epic is finished in Seaside is when switch to CS so we can start running scientists asap. Moscow will have its library in and be a turn away from having a Monastery too. Broberg will be halfway with the library as will Horsetropolis. Once these two sites have their libraries, then we go 100% science to maximize our bang for our buck. Both of these sites can run 3 or 4 scientists.

The trick will be two fold. One, we don't want to run less scientists than possible, specifically in Seaside and its 100% bonus. Two, we don't want Seaside to pass St. Pete since we need the GE for Taj. Ideally, we want to run scientists as late as possible in St. Pete to keep the pollution to a minimum. We pop a GS and the whole plan goes out the window, so it's crucial we keep this to a minimum. Best case scenario is we get both around the same time.

From here, we rush Taj in St. Pete and pull the scientists to keep the gene pool only engineers (since we need one eventually for Mining Inc). Trade Nationalism for Education - whoever is cheapest. If we can get Constitution before the end of the GA, go that route for the free switch back into Representation. If not, I say we go up the nuke path. The first GS we pop is an Academy in Seaside since I think we'll pop one before we trade for Edu and there's no sense letting him sit around waiting to be bulbed. Plus it will help our chances getting to Constitution and improve our tech rate during the 100% run.

The specific turn numbers would need to be addressed, specifically when the other cities run mass scientists and when we'd actually pop the GS's, but I think the idea is there.
 
No time to think hard, but that all sounds pretty good except that we need Rocketry (and its prereq chain) to build nukes of either kind.
 
Well, yea.. erm, hmmm, uh...

We'd get a head start on the Manhattan Project!

Seriously though, all the more reason to go for constitution asap for the extra beakerage (yes, beakerage is a word). I looked at Rocketry, and, well, it's going to take a while...
 
I agree that Constitution for Representation is required, and soon. Estimated benefits: say Seaside runs 7 specs with a beaker multiplier of ~2 (lib+uni+2mon+obs), Moscow 2 specs|mult 3 (with Oxford), and 10 other specs scattered around with a multiplier of 1.75. That's 37.5 * 3beakers = ~110 per turn. Those 5745 beakers for Nat'lism + Const will be made up in around 50 turns. (Yeah, our beaker multipliers won't be that high in any of the cities right away, but it won't be too long, and they'll eventually be even higher. This is just a rough estimate.)

There are already good arguments for going for Nat'lism ourselves. We could wait and trade for Const but we'd probably have to wait at least an additional 20 turns. Also, maybe we want to go for Democ ourselves and delay trading away Const. There won't be a ton of other techs to get from the AI for awhile, particularly after we've traded Nat'lism, so that may not be a big loss. We'd get a head start on Democ and then go for the Statue of Liberty. Yeah, a lot of hammers, but we're Industrious, we'll have copper, and we're going to have probably 8 cities on our continent. 8 free scientists with Rep will yield something like (9bpt per scientist)*(2[Sea]+3[Mos]+6*1.75[other]) = 140 beakers per turn. :) After we're done we trade away Democ. This also leverages our investment in keeping Gandhi contained, leaving us room for more cities than other teams. Let's push that advantage hard.

How many base hammers in Moscow? 20ish? Indust bonus is 100%? 50% for capital, 25% forge, 100% for copper --> 20*3.75 = 75 hpt. SoL is something like 2250 hammers --> 30 turns. Looks good to me.

[Edit: Sorry to keep adding and editing. This strategy also fits nicely with BL's idea of using our first Great Sci's to set up academies (which I forgot about--the beaker multipliers will be even better for Seaside and Moscow :)) instead of burning them on Education and Printing, which we can trade for instead.

BTW, if we keep our previous order, CB would be up after BL finishes. Would you be up for that, CB?]
 
It would be worthwhile to reread several of the posts on the first page regarding strategy and tactics. Also, this game is over on Dec 7, which is less than 7 weeks away. We should aim for at least 50 turns per week on average. :eek:
 
BTW, if we keep our previous order, CB would be up after BL finishes. Would you be up for that, CB?
Sure.

I've realized that this game is so much easier when you don't know what you are doing! :crazyeye:
 
Bah. Everything has its tradeoffs. As BL said, the AIs are going to want to go to Emancipation once they get Democracy, and we'll only by helping them if we trade away Constitution and/or Democ. But they're going to get it no matter what and we'll have to deal with it. I think the Globe must go in Seaside. It won't have enough hammer tiles in use to build lots of happiness buildings--Globe would fix everything once and for all. We'll need a theatre there, too, plus 4 more elsewhere. No huge rush, I think, but we need to get started before too long. National Epic + Globe fills Seaside's slots, leaving Oxford for Moscow, which has a lot more hammers for that and happiness buildings.

If we go the Constitution route then we could afford an Eng popping in Seaside--it would just set back the academies by 10 turns or so. In fact, since we will only have 1 engineer slot available in our cities for a long time (courtesy of the forges) and may be running Merc'lism and have the SoL simultaneously for awhile giving us a second free (non-eng) spec, I don't think we can keep the eng DNA pure anywhere (although we could run a plain citizen). A bigger worry is just that we won't be able to pop a 100%-chance Engineer anywhere before the game ends (after St Pete pops in 16 or so turns) unless the city is running more than just one specialist. Therefore, I think we should run an engineer in any city that has a chance of popping a GP by the end of the game so we can found Mining Inc. The odds of an Eng in Seaside are not large, but we'll be popping a lot of GPs there so the overall odds are good. Throw in GP pops from other cities, which will have higher probabilities of an Engineer, and the odds are quite good we'll get what we need.

In addition to the techs on the Rocketry path, we'll also want the path to Railroad (req'd for Mining Inc, gives us the railroad bonus on mines, etc...). As Rolo pointed out near the start, we WILL have global warming with all the nukes going off and Sushi (req Medicine) can help with our food needs once our farms turn to desert (slight exaggeration). Although if we can pull off a lightning war maybe we won't care about starvation. But for a lightning war we'll need armor and/or paratroopers, which require more techs, and probably Combustion for transports, etc. We'll need a lot of techs no matter how we do this, so let's set ourselves up for the long haul on research. I think the Const/Democ/SoL route is worth it. This is a pretty big strategic decision, though, so let's take our time thinking about it. Rolo, you out there?

[Edit: If necessary, we could delay using our Great Eng on the Taj by a few turns after we finish Nat'lism so that we'll be sure to finish Constitution while we're still in the Golden Age and can revolt to Rep without delay.

Edit2: From zyxy's map analysis in post 26, our world should have roughly 750 land tiles, and it seems that we have the type without a lot of tiny islands, thank goodness. If you figure an average of 12 land tiles per city (??) that leaves room for 62 cities, although even the AI won't settle in the worst of the icy wastelands. We'll have around 10 cities, maybe a couple more, so that leaves somewhere around 50 AI cities for us to conquer. Now say that we only build 1 tactical nuke (half the hammer cost of ICBMs) per city, which will leave city units at half strength so we'll have to kill them with our land forces. I'm not saying that's what we should do--using 2 nukes to completely kill them would be nice. It's just to get a lower limit on the number of hammers we need to put toward nukes. Epic speed has a hammer cost multiplier of roughly 1.5 so we will need ~50 nukes * 375 hammers/nuke = 18750 hammers. We'll be lucky to have 3 good production cities with something like 30 base hammers each and hammer multipliers of 2,3,3 (the latter with Heroic Epic and Iron Works). Let's be a little optimistic and say they each can crank out 90 hpt. Building the required nukes will then take 69 turns. Yes, we have other cities, but their production won't be nearly as good and we have to build all the other units (tanks, paratroopers, subs...) somewhere. The point is, it's going to take awhile to build all the units we need for the big war, and we might not want/be able to wage one single quick war everywhere. As someone suggested in the beginning, the Kremlin might be very helpful.

There's no UN in this game so we can't pass a resolution forbidding nuke production after we've got ours, so if anybody gets the techs to build them we must deny their access to any uranium on the planet. Oh, and we must have our own U. I'd sure like to get SciMeth to see where it is.

We should have a high power rating so hopefully the AI will leave us alone. If we have leftovers once we've traded for the techs we want we could/should use techs to bribe the AIs into war with each other. Of course, that's just one way to keep them down, but let's not forget it.]
 
What, no comments? :confused: And no sense of urgency, despite the 50 turns/week pace we need? BL, it sounded like you wanted to put Horsetroplis on its feet and take care of those caravels before you handed off. If so, when can you play? We'll then need to put together a plan for CB's set.

I've started a normal speed game akin to what we're doing here to see how things work down the road (lightning war vs warring with 1 civ at a time as we acquire nukes, will we need to scrub fallout, how bad/quick is global warming, paratroopers vs tanks, how helpful are airports, Mining Inc., Sushi, etc.). Events are unfolding roughly the same as what we're experiencing and I've just gotten Constitution, switching to Rep and Free Religion while under the Taj Golden Age. Our real game research rate is going to be awesome once we get going with all the specs and 100% slider. Here are a couple things that struck me:

Have we met the 5th AI yet? We want to be able to trade techs with all of them by the time we have Nat'lism so let's build another caravel if needed to find him.

I ended up bulbing Printing Press (which we probably won't do, but maybe let's hang onto a Great Sci for a little while rather than immediately using for an academy if it looks like we need more trade bait) and together with Nat'lism was able to sequentially trade my way to Gunpowder, Education, Economics, and Liberalism. Getting Lib'ism (and Constitution) before the end of the Taj GA would be sweet because we could then switch to Free Religion at the same time as Rep'tation.

The Golden Age is a great time to finish off libraries and work on universities (when we have Education) in our weaker cities so that we'll be able to build Oxford.

BTW, I was premature in my earlier suggestion about needing to prep for the Globe in Seaside. We may not need it for awhile, and maybe never. If the latter is true then we might consider building Oxford there, but it would take a lot longer than in Moscow. Has anybody studied this closely yet?

I'm taking another day off to work outside (70! and after we had some snow over the weekend) so won't be able to respond quickly to the long and thoughtful commentaries I'm sure you're working on. ;)
 
Quick update - I probably won't get a chance today to play (maybe tonight), but I should tomorrow.

I'm inclined to agree on the Nationalism -> Constitution -> Democracy path. Delaying Taj to guarantee Representation before the GA is out also crossed my mind. It'll depend on the other AI's tech progress, so we'll play that decision by ear.

I'm 100% sure we have Uranium, likely somewhere in the original BFC of our starting settlers. That said, I'm not too anxious to tech off Scientific Method since I doubt Gythaar would stick Uranium required for victory far away in some unknown location, thus settling it would require a bit of luck. No, we have it somewhere close, and obsoleting monasteries just to see where he stuck it is not necessary. We're going to want to run Free Religion, so the spread of our various religions (all two of them - maybe Horsetropolis gets a third) shouldn't be canned. And just for the record, uranium is revealed with Physics, not Scientific Method, though the later is needed to be teched off anyway.

Rush buying will be our friend later, and Democracy opens this otherwise inaccessible civic up. Kremlin will definitely be mandatory in this regard, which requires Communism. Being first to Fascism is another requirement - our war with Gandhi is likely only to pop 1 GG (maybe two when we invade) which means only one military academy. The more the merrier. And speaking of military academies, that means Military Science is necessary as well. Yea, more things to research...
 
1640 - Research switched to Nationalism (eh, why not, even though it doesn't make too much of a difference). Library started in Horsetropolis and Moscow.

IBT - Great Merchant born in Washington. DeGualle acquires/techs Education and will trade.

1645 - Theatre finishes in St. Pete, Confu missionary started. Work boat completes in Broberg, library started. Horsetropolis switches to work boat build and a chop is spent on it to complete it in one turn. Gandhi's caravels are 2 N of Broberg. Both our caravels sent out to escort our work boat over. A catapult leaves Bombay and moves 1 W. Our Woody II mace attacks it at 96.85% odds and kills it, gaining two exp. We're 9 exp from a GG.

IBT - Our caravels are victorious! None lost, both of Gandhi's have been eliminated. One of ours didn't even take any damage. However... 2 barb galleys appear off the coast of Horsetropolis, no doubted loaded with troops, and our caravel down south can't reach any of them. There is a caravel from Roosevelt nearby which hopefully will take one out for us, but I'm not certain.

1650 - A longbow moves 1 S from Delhi. Spotting a possible avenue of escape for his settler, I swing the Knight over from Bombay to help if he chooses to break out from Delhi (though I doubt the AI is smart enough to do so). Our third source of Iron is hooked up. Working under the assumption there's 4 maces in the two barb galleys (worst case scenario), I chop out a longbow (as opposed to the library) and swing the longbow from St. Pete over into the city. St. Pete becomes unhappy, but really there's no other choice here. We'll have two longbows in the city should the barbs try an amphibious attack or anything. If they head north, we'll be able to swing one of them north to reach Moscow in time. I also moved our caravel up next to them, hoping to bait one of them to attack it. If they don't attack we'll be able to use our caravel to hit one of them the following turn. I also move our galley up from down south to play mop up if necessary - the barbs cannot attack it without going through our caravel first. To fix our happiness problem in St. Pete, I suggest to DeGualle instead of receiving Iron from us for Wine that we'd give him fish instead. He thinks it's a wonderful idea :) So we're now trading fish to DeGualle for Wine. Great trade for us.

IBT - We catch three breaks: Roosevelt's galley knocked out one of the galleys before it could unload and the second barb galley suicided into our caravel and died, though first it deposited a mace and a spear on the hill 1 N of Horsetropolis. The combat one longbow from Delhi kamikazes our Woody II Mace and loses. He's one exp away from Woody III (and a little beat up too) and our GG bar reads only 3 exp away from our first GG.

1655 - Library in Moscow finishes. It's not ideal, but a crossbow can be built in one turn from the city and is queued up to deal with the two barbs. Again, we have no choice, otherwise the two melee units can go on a pillaging spree around our cities. Plus St. Pete is only guarded by a warrior, so if they head in that direction we'd want a unit there to deal with the possible threat.

Because of Hereditary Rule, Mercantilism, and Bureaucracy, Roosevelt is pleased with us from "You have wisely chosen your civics."

I've stopped here for barb discussion again. We can do one of two things:

Do nothing this turn. The barbs either attack the city, pillage the tile they're on, or move towards St. Pete. I like our odds if they attack the city - we have two longbows there with one promoted with City Garrison I. If they pillage it's no loss to us - I had mined it anticipating the city working it upon its founding, but since St. Pete can't work all of its mines Horsetropolis can take a better tile to work. If they move toward St. Pete and its one warrior we may or may not be able to stop them the next turn with our crossbow from Moscow depending on where they move to.

The other option is we could 'persuade' them to move to the riverside plains tile by sacrificing a worker. They'd move off the hill and in range of the crossbow where we could then attack him the following turn. We'd have 79.86% odds versus the mace assuming we give the crossbow combat one. Not the best odds, and we'd still have a spear to deal with afterward. I think if I had to choose between the barbs taking our worker and exposing themselves or them attacking our longbows in the city, I'd rather them attack the city. But I figured I'd better open it up to the masses and see what everyone else has to say.

Once we decide what our course of action is I'll finish that move off then hand-off (unless you'd rather I play until the barbs are dealt with). I had originally planned to play until the library finished, but the barbs set us back in Horsetropolis big-time. Instead of the library finishing 6 turns from now, we're looking at 15 turns from now, and the borders aren't going to pop until 23 turns from now. We're not going to have the specialists up as soon as we were hoping since the chop hammers had to go towards a longbow. We'll have to decide if delaying the library to pop borders via building culture then building a second work boat is worth it. My guess is yea since we need the pop anyway to run specialists, but some discussion would be good.

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Without knowing the odds if the barbs were to attack in Horsetropolis I'd err on the safe side and offer up Slave03 (fitting ;)) on the river plains tile. The next turn, assuming the barb(s) take the bait, the crossbow from Moscow could move to the hill mine across the river to defend St Pete and dare the barb to attack. Then we've got 3 units to his 2, plus our new longbow has had a turn to fortify, and we're safe. In case we have to actually kill the dang things I'd bring up the knight this turn after first moving pike13 (SE of Bombay) to a safer location 1 tile south. I can be talked into letting the barbs alone (so that they presumably attack Horse) but I'd need some probabilities to back it up.

We haven't found the 5th AI yet, so let's have our caravels work on that--trading opportunities will be critical for the first rounds.

BTW, did you see the barb sword down on the mountain-blocked ice peninsula? Eh, he can't get to us.

Let's keep the ball rolling. You'll play tomorrow, BL? CB, are you ready to go or would you like me to take the next round?

[Edit Sat a.m: How about building a workboat in Moscow for use by Horse? And we should probably keep a caravel posted near Parthian for advance warning from now on, at least until we have more/better land units to deal with them. I'd have Horse build culture for a couple turns to pop the borders--population is more important than a library's 25% research bonus at this point.]

FWIW, we can get Nat'lism in 15 turns at 100% research. Nat'l Epic completes next turn. Is the plan to grow Seaside to its happy cap and then revolt to CS and run specs?

Edit2: I've updated the Play Summary post. Comments? After we win this SGOTM it will serve as an invaluable instruction tool to other teams. ;)]
 
Yea, plan in Seaside is to grow to happy cap while running specs. Right now we could run four scientists if we switch to CS, next turn 5. Its next build is a theatre to set up a possible Globe build later. And I can agree with Moscow building a work boat from Horsetropolis at some point. It all depends on the barb situation and what we need.

1655 - Swap Horsetropolis from library to culture - I agree: pop over beakers at this point from the city. Use slave 03 to bait the barbs and have it start building a farm on the plains tile. My intent is to chain irrigate down to Horsetropolis to allow another scientist or two post CS.

IBT - Barb mace pillages the mine and the spear captures the worker. Catapult moves 1W from Delhi.

1660 - Our crossbow completes in Moscow and is poised to kill the spear at 99.72% odds without using a promo. Nice. We kill the spear and promo heal him back to 5.2/6 health. Moscow queues up a workboat, though I might delay it for another crossbow (then that's it, no more units...). St. Pete finishes the Confucian Missionary and he is sent off to Seaside. To deal with the catapult to prevent him from either attacking one of our units or moving towards Bombay, I use the mace to attack him at 96.85% odds. We kill the catapult and don't lose a hit point. We're one exp from a GG. Next turn the mace will be able to be promoted. Give him Woody II, move him 1 N and fortify. It prevents any moves towards Broberg.

I've played enough at this point and will turn it over. I still have not started a revolt to CS yet - if in fact we want to it this turn it will have to be done before 'enter' is pushed and then adjust Seaside accordingly. For the time being I have a Confucian Temple queued in St. Pete. The reason is two-fold - one it gives plus +1 culture in its losing culture war and it gives +1 happy to deal with more 'motherland' issues. Nukes can't come fast enough...

Question: I looked at the civics screen and see we can change two civics for one turn of anarchy. Caste is a definite, but my question is could we switch to Pacifism and since we don't have a state religion would we not get hit with the +1 support for each military unit? Or is the increase in military support cost not dependent on whether we're in a state religion? I know we wouldn't get the +100% GP generation until we ran a state religion.

The Play Summary looks nice. Though I'm more hoping to avoid Wooden Spoons more than anything at this point...

Save uploaded to server and can be found >>HERE<<
 
I assume that we'll just leave the barb mace alone until he moves to a non-hill tile and then attack with the crossbow, and finish him off with another unit if necessary? Since Horsey is now safe, shall we keep the knight posted near Bombay?

About the "no more units" ... ;) In my pseudo-test game, Mao declared on me, which was unfortunate given my less than prepared state (similar to ours). Fortunately, I can reload. :D Remember, we have the aggressive AI setting. Seaside has only 1 unit (archer, I think) which really makes me nervous. Moscow is the closest city and it would take 2 turns to get any units up there. How about we keep your workboat, crossbow, settler plan for Moscow and send the crossbow up to Seaside? Knights are really what we need for rapid response, although I think it'll be quite awhile before we get the horses back. Actually, if we lose the crossbow to the barb mace, I'd like to build yet another crossbow to take his place, before the settler. Shame on the barbs for threatening our capital once, but shame on us if we put it in danger twice, eh? ;) Seriously, we need to defend our cities and keep up our power rating to dissuade attacks. I know we'd like to keep a lean defense to build "more important" stuff and settle cities, but let's not push our luck too far.

I think we get the Pacifism unit costs even without a state religion but I'll check in my test game and come back with at least a rough plan. If BL would like to offer suggestions, that would be great. :)
 
Here's a plan for the next 10+ turns. If OK, I might be able to play some tomorrow night (Mon). CB, if you'd like to do it, that's OK, too. I'm not sure when would be best to revolt to Caste System, but probably another turn or two. Seaside will grow to size 9 next turn and the latest workboat will hook up some more fish, leaving just the clams to go. It would be nice to get Seaside to pop 10, but I wouldn't want to delay Caste System more than 2 turns from now.

Research Nationalism at 0% research until we come out of the revolt to Caste System, then 100% with lots of specialists. Make sure St Pete pops its GP (we want an Eng) before Seaside. St Pete will pop in 17 turns with its one engineer--we will speed that up at the very end by running lots of scientists for a turn or two. The Great Eng will be used to rush the Taj in St Pete (timed to allow completion of Constitution before the end of the Taj Golden Age so we can revolt to Representation). We then research Constitution and revolt to Confusion/Pacifism (in that order) at the beginning of the Taj Golden Age (but see discussion below). After Taj is complete we will trade Nationalism around for other techs, preferably including Liberalism (after getting Education) so we can revolt to Free Religion and Representation + No state religion at the end of the GA. Is it necessary to do a religious revolt if we're in Free Religion?

Immediately revolt to Caste System. Do not change to Pacifism.
Run 100% research.
Keep St Pete GPPs pure Engineer as long as possible. Slow Seaside and Broberg GP pops if necessary--St Pete must pop first. Probably wait to run specs in Broberg until library is completed. Grow Seaside more if appropriate.
Use an eastern slave to lure Gandhi's longbow off Broberg's eastern hill. Shift our longbows to occupy both hills.
Build/send Confu missionary to Horsey but do not convert until beginning of Golden Age to maximize time for Horsey to collect another religion.
Check if Mao can reach us by galley--Seaside has only an archer.
Until we have better city defenses, always keep enough gold to upgrade a warrior to a mace.


Build times are estimates after the first item:
Moscow: workboat for Horse(1), Xbow(2), Xbow?, settler(7), Xbow for Copperville
St Pete: Confucian temple(7), Confu missionary for Horsey, Bank or Xbow(5)...
Seaside: workboat(2), Islamic monastery(5), Islamic missionary to Moscow, theatre?
Broberg: library(4), longbow, workboat for Copperville(3), caravel or galley...
Horsetropolis: culture(2), library(<17)...
Silverton: workboat(2), library or Xbow or barracks or courthouse??

Move caravel34 (by Moscow) to keep an eye on Parthian (1S2E) and give us advance warning of barb invasion and/or sink galleys.
Use other caravels to explore (find that 5th AI) and escort Broberg workboat to southern crabs for Copperville. Don't send Broberg caravel very far--needed to escort workboat past Delhi.
Move new Woody2 mace to 1NE of Delhi and fortify.
Once most work around Silverton is complete, transport one worker back to mainland. Leave the other to road out east to the warrior in preparation for future settling (or maybe build a fort so boats can leave/enter Silverton from the west). Post the galley where he can be of help in fending off barb invasions if the caravel fails.

I'd like to have Broberg build a workboat for the to-be-city by the copper. It'll be a lot faster than having Copperville build it and we're not sure that a workboat could get around that southern peninsula anyway. The workboat will probably need an escort to get by Delhi.

I'm not sure what to do about including Pacifism with the Caste System revolt. In my not-identical test game (which had no units in enemy territory, but had similar population and number of units) the total maintenance was around 12 higher with Pacifism than with Paganism. The main differences were Civic Upkeep (around 8 lower with Pacifism--not sure what the diff would be here, sorry) and Unit Cost (higher with Pac, with an allowance of around 10 free units based on our population). It'll take us somewhere around 10 turns to research Nat'lism once we revolt to Caste System, so we're looking at somewhere around an extra 100 gold if we go to Pacifism before the Taj Golden Age starts. The benefit would be 1 extra turn with the +100% Pacifism/Confusion GP bonus since we'd only need to revolt to Confusion at the beginning of the GA. I'm not sure how to evaluate the pros and cons. Anyone? Revolt to Caste System but not Pacifism.

[Addition, worker plan:
Chain irrigate toward Horsey so we can run more specialists, especially during the Golden Age. Mine the two desert hills by Horsey. After Replaceable Parts we can windmill them, and after Chemistry we might convert a farm to a workshop. Protect workers from the barb mace with the fully healed Xbow (and probably another unit to be safe).

One of the "extra" Xbows in Moscow/St Pete will be needed to garrison Copperville. Have Moscow build a crossbow immediately after the settler.

I'm inclined to skip the early revolt to Pacifism and go for Caste System this turn. We don't want somebody to get Nationalism before us and start trading it around.

Re CB's post 318: Yeah, 6 weeks. :eek: We need to play. I'll try tomorrow if we get agreement on a plan.]
 
Here's a plan for the next 10+ turns. If OK, I might be able to play some tomorrow night (Mon). CB, if you'd like to do it, that's OK, too. I'm not sure when would be best to revolt to Caste System, but probably another turn or two.
...
I'm not sure what to do about including Pacifism with the Caste System revolt. In my not-identical test game (which had no units in enemy territory, but had similar population and number of units) the total maintenance was around 12 higher with Pacifism than with Paganism. The main differences were Civic Upkeep (around 8 lower with Pacifism--not sure what the diff would be here, sorry) and Unit Cost (higher with Pac, with an allowance of around 10 free units based on our population). It'll take us somewhere around 10 turns to research Nat'lism once we revolt to Caste System, so we're looking at somewhere around an extra 100 gold if we go to Pacifism before the Taj Golden Age starts. The benefit would be 1 extra turn with the +100% Pacifism/Confusion GP bonus since we'd only need to revolt to Confusion at the beginning of the GA. I'm not sure how to evaluate the pros and cons. Anyone?
Play away; it doesn't hurt my feelings any at all. If we knew when we wanted to revolt to Caste System, I could do that. However, it seems like it needs to be fuzzy logic decision to make that revolt, based more on a shifting set of parameters than an absolute yardstick of measurement.

EDIT:
We have about 6 weeks to go to December 7.
 
I'm thinking swap to CS now - we'll get the hammer bonus for Moscow and Seaside and we really don't need serfdom anymore.

Moscow builds: Work boat -> Crossbow -> settler. I maintain that we have more than enough units as it is, especially considering we're going 100% very soon.

St. Pete: Confucian Temple -> Confucian Missionary for Horsetropolis if Confucianism hasn't spread there on its own. If it has spread, then I'd probably have it start on a bank so when it completes the cottages are mature and chances are the treasury will have run out so we'd be back to 0%.

Seaside: It doesn't need the fifth work boat. We'll be at the happy cap soon enough with the food we have. I suppose Islamic Monastery -> Islamic Missionary, though with the plan to run specs asap it'll take a while. We're not going to be able to run a ton of specs out of here (one extra tops iirc), so while the city can still build things lets get the monastery done for the missionary.

Broberg: We're a long ways away from settling the copper site, so a work boat for the city now is not needed. Finish the library, build another longbow to get the other Gandhi longbow off the hill. Instead of using the worker by Broberg as the bait, ship one of the slaves over to be the sacrificial lamb. The caravel in Broberg can do some minimal scouting. It's going to be the escort for the future work boat out of Broberg for copper site. Instead, use the Caravel by Seaside for the scouting. A good bet to meet the last remaining contact is to look by Roosevelt - my guess is he's trading his spare dyes to that civ.

Horsetropolis: Culture -> library. Pretty straight forward here.

Silverton: Work boat -> library. It'll run specs too.

Once the caravel by Moscow/Horsetropolis is healed move him 1 E, 1 SE (it's an ocean tile iirc). It'll give us heads up if any more boats are sent from Parthian.

Hold on revolting to Pacifism. We'll use the GA for that.

Before tomorrow I'll run some rough numbers to see when exactly we go 100%. I originally considered timing the GE to coincide with finishing Nationalism, but I then realized we want as much of a head start on constitution as possible so representation can be opened up during the GA. Ideally, we stay in 100% through the GA, so I don't want to start 100% too soon and run the treasury out.
 
OK on the changes, but... We're going to need a unit for Copperville, which will be settled in around 14-15 turns. A crossbow in St Pete (after the temple) would arrive right around the same time. How important is it that Horsey have Confusion for the Golden Age/Pacifism bonus? It's only around 8 turns of extra GP points. Leaving it religionless would up the chances of us getting other religions that we can then spread for the Free Religion bonus (but only until SciMeth, since we won't be able to build monasteries after that). I agree that Broberg can squeeze in another longbow before the workboat to try to get our hill back--I was hoping to have the workboat do a little exploring farther south before it was needed for the crabs, but it's not necessary.
 
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