SGOTM 10 - Team CFR

[OT4E]

What do we see now?
We lack huge ammount of production. Settlers cost very much, 374 hammers, as far as I know. We need at least 3 more cities early. We need libraries and universities on which we dont have any discount.
And you seriously purpose to waste hammers skipping organized religion and settling several extra specialist to grow Great People instead of spending hammers into further development. I totally disagree with you and I am ready to prove it once test map will be ready.

It is not normal conquest. We dont need to get into the space now and we can stop technology after teching nukes and turn into slavery and universal sufferage to make fast conquest. In this case I think Kremlin will be very useful.

 

[OT4E]

Almost completely agree, just not sure if we have to build the boat first. Maybe the worker in both cities?

Согласен почти во всём, только не уверен, что нужно строить лодку сначала. Может быть рабочих в обоих городах?

Of course boat start is much slower than worker. We will need to build em while growing.

 

[Obormot]

Better chop wood 1E from worker to irrigate resources, while cottaging the lands of the capital

Yes, you are right about chopping. But do we really want any cottages?

Almost completely agree, just not sure if we have to build the boat first. Maybe the worker in both cities?

You are probably right, I didn't think about the build sequence yet.

What do we see now?
We lack huge ammount of production. Settlers cost very much, 374 hammers, as far as I know. We need at least 3 more cities early. We need libraries and universities on which we dont have any discount.
And you seriously purpose to waste hammers skipping organized religion and settling several extra specialist to grow Great People instead of spending hammers into further development. I totally disagree with you and I am ready to prove it once test map will be ready.

OR won't help us with those settlers. It will save about 36 hammers on each university and 16 on each library. That is roughly equal to the cost of a missionary that is required to spread religion. With pacifism we can skip missionaries, since we will only need religion in the 2nd city, which will get it automaticaly. Of course, missionaries also give culture & happiness, and this way our bigger cities "help" our smaller cities allowing better Oxford synchronisation. So testing to figure out which option is better should be best. Hhawk posted a test map already, it doesn't have any new info, but modifiing it shouldn't be hard.

Kremlin may be a good idea. Communism is not required for fission though. We'll need to calculate whether it has enough time to pay off or not when the time is right.

 

[Obormot]

So far I think we can make the switch to mercantilism & bureaucracy. IIRC everyone is OK with those two civics. Then we can play one more turn, maybe we'll find something interesting.

 

[Lexad]

We won't be able to switch other civics for 5 turns then - I think we'd better decide first. There's no rush, and there were no tests so far.

I believe cottages are OK for the capital with bureau. Not necessary for other cities, yes.

 

[Obormot]

We won't be able to switch other civics for 5 turns then - I think we'd better decide first. There's no rush, and there were no tests so far.

I believe cottages are OK for the capital with bureau. Not necessary for other cities, yes.

You are right, of course. I forgot about the 5 turn rule. Then it would be best to play some test games now that we more or less know our city placement. OR vs pacifism is the big question that is still undecided, as well as the exact MM & worker sequence. OR would be a very conventional approach, and I am sure it will work OK. Can pacifism do better? I am not sure.

Our capital has so many great tiles (food, gold hills, etc) that I doubt that we'll ever get to working cottages. We should get representation soon, and then there will be no reason to work cottages. Maybe only 3 river tiles, and even there I am not sure.

If anyone plays a test game, please post your saves here, so that those who don't have enough time for testing can also see how the game is going to develop.

 

[akots]

Second Obormot/CB on city placement and immediate plan (building workers).

IMO, we need slavery and bureaucracy right from the start. May be mercantilism and may be Org Religion can be considered and we can try to get HR as well, depends on how many turns it is going to be. If it is going to be Mercantilism, it is better to be coupled with Pacifism. I'm not sure how beneficial Org. Religions is going to be.

Cottages might be good for the time being, when there is not enough tiles to work although it does not look like an important factor for this map. But cottages might be a very low priority improvements. There seems to be enough food to grow the population, enough to whip a few settlers if coupled with forest chops.

 

[Lexad]

As the distance is quite long - longer than diplo - and settlers are expensive, maxing city size is a logical step. And then cottages will definitely pay out in the capital. The 2nd city is for GP.

Поскольку дистанция длинная - длиннее дипло - а сеттлеры дороги, логично иметь относительно мало больших городов. И тогда коттеджи в столице окупятся. Второй город - для Великих.

 

[akots]

Then, if aiming for maximal city size, HR might be required. There is probably enough health with seafood/harbors. Another thing are corporations. Do we want to try to found one (Sid's Sushi, Mining Inc.)? Then, may be top priority is economics to get a Great Merchant? Or get a Great Engineer? Or run to Representation and aim to get a Great Scientist for bulb Education? Academy is apparently top priority however at the beginning.

 

[Obormot]

Then, if aiming for maximal city size, HR might be required. There is probably enough health with seafood/harbors.

We can switch 4 civics for free (that will take exactly 2 turns that we'll need to move the settler), but 5th will cost a turn. So far I thought that we want bureau, slavery, merc and either OR or pacifism, skipping HR. Of course we could as well skip the religious civic and use HR, but I doubt we'll need that happiness really early. And later we'll be in representation.

Another thing are corporations. Do we want to try to found one (Sid's Sushi, Mining Inc.)? Then, may be top priority is economics to get a Great Merchant? Or get a Great Engineer?

I doubt that will be usefull. And without factories + coal plants (& courthouses) the cost of mining inc will be higher then the hammer bonus. Sushi is even worse as it requires an extra tech. Also the numer of resources we control will be very limited.

Or run to Representation and aim to get a Great Scientist for bulb Education? Academy is apparently top priority however at the beginning.

I think education should be our first tech target. With pacifism we should be able to get two GSs: one for academy, and one for bulbing. With OR or nothing we'll probably I am not sure, but maybe only one (academy) is OK. Before academy we can set the slider to 0% (and then again 0% between education & Oxford). Then with accumulated money we can quickly get nationalism & constitution (probably with liberalism). Constitution will enable representation, and Taj (nationalism) will allow us to switch civics for free. After getting constitution we'll probably beeline biology, bulbing several techs on the way to it, this will allow us to quickly grow our cities and increase their beaker output, also we might build NPark if we find a good place for that. After biology we have two options: we either make another sidetrack to assembly line for factories & coal plants, or tech directly to fission & satellites if we think it is better to build nukes simply by whipping.

 

[Dynamic]

Pacifism has zero cost so if effect is equal it's better choice.

P.S. And I always prefer Factories on the long way...

 

[akots]

Any progress with the turns?

 

[Obormot]

I am currently experimenting with hhawk's test save. I am going to post my suggestions about the starting moves and civic choices as soon as I reach some conclusion.

 

[akots]

 

[Obormot]

OK, I finally found some time to run several test games. Sorry for the long delay.

I came to conclusion that pacifism is a stronger option then OR. There is no way we can get two GSs by the time we want to start building univercities with OR. Of course with OR we can research education or delay the academy, but I think we want both bulbing education and academy (bulbing education is much more efficent then bulbing any other tech, because GS value doesn't depend on multipliers). After Oxford we can then run non stop 100% research rate to quickly get to Nationalism & Constitution.

So if there are no objections, I am going to play 2 more turns, settle the cities and make the switch to bureau/slavery/merc/pacifism. I also want to waste a worker-turn and send the worker to the forest 2S,1E of the settler (instead of the one 1S as was previously suggested). This has two advantages: it can be chopped into the capital with bureau giving more hammers (giving another worker instantly ) & it allows irrigating corn before rice, which is better. This way the capital can produce two workers very quickly (1 whipped, 1 chopped), giving us 3 workers on turn 5 after settling. I am not sure if we want to whip another worker ASAP in the 2nd city; we cannot use engineers there because we want it to produce a 100% pure scientists, so I think we want a library there ASAP to avoid running empty citizens. I think we can grow it to size 4 building a WB and then whip a library.

 

[akots]

Sounds good!

 

[Dynamic]

Obormot, you confuse Education with Astro. Only Astro has science coeff 1,0 and it's ideal for bulbing.
But it's no real matter now. Can we get 5 cities in time?

 

[Lexad]

The point with bulbing Edu is that later we wil have science multipliers (libs and unis-Oxford), so bulbing early is more efficient comparing to direct research.

The plan looks ok, but if we can delay until Sunday, I'd like to run one more test.

 

[Obormot]

The point with bulbing Edu is that later we wil have science multipliers (libs and unis-Oxford), so bulbing early is more efficient comparing to direct research.

Yes, that was the idea. Also education is the only tech that we can bulb on the way to constitution, so pacifism should bring us representation sooner.

[/quote]The plan looks ok, but if we can delay until Sunday, I'd like to run one more test.[/QUOTE]
I think we can wait, as long there is some discussion going.

 

[akots]

IMO, we should focus heavily on building 5 cities emphasizing food (good for whipping and in Representation also) as rapidly as possible so they can grow a bit to whip libraries and then universities after getting Education. This might require some unknowns to be considered such as need for a few military units just in case an AI or barbarians are around, more workers/boats, and may be happiness improvements as well (market ?? if time permits so that we have some margin before Representation). If there is no Org Religion, probably there is no rush to spread religion(s).