SGOTM 10 - Team CFR

[Lexad]

If we want to pop-rush settlers, we should not grow to max - we should grow to max afterwards. Rush at pop 4 for two citizens, or in this expensive settlers' case and abundant food pop 6 might be the optimal point - need calcs.

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Если мы хотим рашить сеттлеров, расти до максимума не обязательно - расти надо будет потом. Можно рашить при населении 4 за 2, хотя при дорогих сеттлерах и обильной еде раш за 3 м.б. быстрее - надо сравнить.

 

[Obormot]

If we want to pop-rush settlers, we should not grow to max - we should grow to max afterwards. Rush at pop 4 for two citizens, or in this expensive settlers' case and abundant food pop 6 might be the optimal point - need calcs.

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Если мы хотим рашить сеттлеров, расти до максимума не обязательно - расти надо будет потом. Можно рашить при населении 4 за 2, хотя при дорогих сеттлерах и обильной еде раш за 3 м.б. быстрее - надо сравнить.

Even with bureau and forge settler cost is 5 population. When building settlers normaly we loose the bureau & forge bonus, so it is optimal to get the entire cost from whipping/chopping. Looks like the optimal size is 8 (then whip 4 citizens), maybe even 10 (whip 5 citizens). This gives plenty of time to build workboats, and enough population to work sea resources.

 

[Lexad]

Ok, so the first thing to do is to decide at which pop to rush settlers.

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Хорошо, значит, первым делом надо решить, при каком населении рашить сеттлеров

 

[Obormot]

It is an easy question, and I will find an answer as soon as I find some time to play with a spreadsheet and run some more test game. Choosing which city should be the capital is not that simple. Have we all agreed with Bemep, or does anyone still think that we should let our capital have the gold hills? And what about an early library? Sure we don't need libraries in both cities, but we need one to stop using citizens and start investing GPP.

 

[Lexad]

No, I'm still not sure as we can arrange resources so that both cities are food-rich. Needs tests.

 

[akots]

 

[Obormot]

I am sorry for the long delay. It was a very busy week for me, and on the weekend I was out of town. But it seems other people aren't actively testing our opening either. At least we are ahead of CRC who didn't play a single turn yet.

As I see it, we need to test the capital-in-place variant now, so that we can compare both options. I actually tried moving some pieces on the test maps, but didn't write any notes while doing so, so I don't have anything to upload for discussion. It looks like the optimum number of early workers is 4 or 5, this seems enough to both improve all the food resources, connect luxuries, and chop forest. We don't really have to worry about work boats, they get built automatically while growing. Northern capital is great for whipping settlers, and it does allow Oxford sooner. It is also a great science city after constitution, equal or better to the southern one. Southern city will be better as a research center between Oxford & constitution. So we need to know how quickly we can expect to get constitution with our capital in the north. If it is not too slow, I will vote for the northern capital. I still think we need a relatively fast library in the city #2.

 

[Obormot]

Here is the test game save.

 

[akots]

I think it is time to play probably. It is over a month and a half since the start. Otherwise, I'm afraid that the team will lose interest completely, well, whatever little interest still remains.

 

[Obormot]

We didn't come to a conclusion about our capital location, and I didn't have enough time to run any test games to compare our development in either case. Apparently other players on the team also lack time or interest to do these. So I guess I will have to take the decision on my own and without any test game data as backup. So far I think I am going to decide in favor of Bemep's suggestion to make the northern city our capital. Northern city will be a better science city long term and a better settler pump short term. The bureau bonus applied to gold is not that important, because the gold will be stockpiled in the early game, not used on important techs as with ancient starts. There is some time still needed to polish the micromanagement, but I think I can do it in 1-2 days and probably play on Saturday. Basic plan: pop-rush a worker in each of the two cities, chop two more workers ASAP for a total of 5 workers. Build work boats while growing and preparing to rush settlers.

 

[Lexad]

Will try to cough smth up on saturday as well regarding southern capital.

 

[Lexad]

Ok, after a bit more testing looks like going for northern capital will gve us faster settlers (max +20 food vs +15 at Southern site), so we can even get all settlers in the North from slavery, while the Southern grows on remaining tiles and gold, builds library and starts GS.

 

[Obormot]

Ok, after a bit more testing looks like going for northern capital will gve us faster settlers (max +20 food vs +15 at Southern site), so we can even get all settlers in the North from slavery, while the Southern grows on remaining tiles and gold, builds library and starts GS.

Yes, either that or whip 1 settler in the southern city, then library & scientists. I am not sure which will be best.

Here is the approximate plan for my session:

Turn 2, 1295 AD - Settle capital in the north, work forest, hill forest, free specialist = engineer. Settle 2nd city in the south, work two forest tiles, free specialist = citizen. Both cities start workers. Worker starts chopping. Science: education at 0%.
Turn 3, 1300 - Rush worker in Moscow.
Turn 4, 1305 - Worker #2 built in Moscow, moves 1E. Start another worker.
Turn 5, 1310 - Worker #2 starts chopping
Turn 6, 1315 - Worker #1 done chopping. Rush worker in SPB. We should get a religion.
Turn 7, 1320 - Both cities build workers, start work boats next. Worker from Moscow moves 1E. Two workers start farm on the tile 1 SW of corn. Moscow works clams, SPB works rice.
Turn 8, 1325 - Moscow build work boat, which builds fish net, starts worker. Forest chopped into worker.
Turn 9, 1330 - Borders of SPB expand. Two workers that finished chopping start farming corn. Moscow builds worker, starts WB. New worker moves onto the gold hill (we will need it very soon for happiness).
Turn 10, 1335 - Farm 1 SW of corn done. 1 worker from that tile, that still has movement left joins the workers farming corn. Adopt religion this turn.
Turn 11, 1340 - Farm on corn ready, given to SPB. Two workers start pasture on cows.
Turn 12, 1345 - Two workers start farm on rice. Road on gold ready.
Turn 13, 1350 - Moscow builds WB, starts another. Worker from gold also farms rice. Pasture on cows done. SPB works cows, Moscow works corn.
Turn 14, 1355 - Fish net done, Moscow works fish. Farm on rice built, start road on rice. Workers from cows sent to forests 2E & 2E 1N of Moscow for chopping.
Turn 15, 1360 - Both cities grow to size 2. Moscow works fish, clams. SPB works cows, corn. 1 worker sent to the hill 1SW of Moscow to build road.
Turn 16, 1365 - 2 workers mine gold
Turn 17, 1370 - Moscow grows to size 3, works fish, clams, corn; SPB works cows, rice.
Turn 18, 1375 - Gold mine done; SPB grows to size 3, WB done -> library.
Turn 19, 1380 - Moscow grows to size 4, builds WB -> settler. Chop 2 forests into settler.

Worker actions after turn 19 will depend on what we discover. Probably we need a road to the new city. With two forests invested we can rush settler in Moscow for two citizens after two turns, or switch it to library, grow to 6 and rush it for 3 with some overflow for another worker. It will also depend on what we discover, I think.

So I am ready to play up to turn 15 or so. I wanted to post this plan yesterday, so that I could play now, but didn't find enough time. So now I have to wait for some comments. I am not sure if I will be able to play tomorrow. But Monday evening is almost 100% sure.

 

[Lexad]

Looks OK, I have no access to Civ now to check microtuning, but all points are logical:
- start chop and slave
- 2-worker improvement construction w/o losing movement
- road for trading routes, happiness and not losing movement on gold hill

If you do not start until ~9pm Moscow, I'll check the sequence at home.

However, overall Moscow location is not hammer-rich - maybe, save more forests for Uni and especially Oxford, while pop-rushing settlers?

 

[Obormot]

Looks OK, I have no access to Civ now to check microtuning, but all points are logical:
- start chop and slave
- 2-worker improvement construction w/o losing movement
- road for trading routes, happiness and not losing movement on gold hill

If you do not start until ~9pm Moscow, I'll check the sequence at home.

However, overall Moscow location is not hammer-rich - maybe, save more forests for Uni and especially Oxford, while pop-rushing settlers?

Moscow has iron, hill and ivory, and we are industrious, so it shouldn't be that hard. But we may leave some forests, of course. There will still be plenty of them left after this turnset. We should slow down chopping after we settle more cities and send workers there. But I think it would be nice to invest at least 1 forest per settler, this allows to rush them more conveniently.

 

[Obormot]

Played 1 turn. Met Gandhi's explorer right after settling Moscow. Didn't realize that we can sign open borders & trade maps at first, so did it one turn later, on turn 3. Gandhi is very close, and he didn't settle his 2nd city yet. Looks like choking wars will be essential to claim land for settling. I decided to turn back the northern longbow, the peninsula there is a dead end, and choking Gandhi seems more important then scouting those few coastal tiles. An early galley looks nice too to colonize the islands in the east. Do we need to make any changes to the opening plan?

 

[Lexad]

I guess not, except for moving all forces to Gandhi to steal workers. Either way we haven't yet planed settlers and now more than ever should prioritize settling the homeland.

 

[akots]

This game is suddenly becoming interesting.

We cannot capture Delhi but we can kill his settlers at the very least if he builds them. Also, try to deny him iron and elephants, and chopping. Since his culture is going to be huge either way, we would have to settle the surrounding areas rapidly. Doing five cities here will be quite challenging. Hopefully, his second settler went to the west and not to the south-east.

 

[Obormot]

In case there won't be an opportunity for a quick worker steal should we wait or DOW ASAP? I guess DOW ASAP as a single worker is not as valuable as with ancient starts, and preventing Gandhi from settling will be the key. On the other hand Gandhi knows calendar, so maybe waiting near silk makes some sense.

 

[Lexad]

We need not DOW ASAP as Gandhi's settlers are as expensive as ours, he will grow slower, he hadn't yet settled 2nd city, he won't pop-rush workers and settlers - so we have a solid lead over him and can procure locations between us peacefully.

Btw, what are his civics? If he doesn't have Slavery, no threat here.

Single worker is not that valuable for us, but stealing workers slows down Gandhi, makes him build defences, prevents from chopping and improving tiles. So I'm for waiting until we find the target and only then declare - otherwise he'll just be in war-building mode for first 10 turns and then stop if there is no threat.