SGOTM 10 - Team CFR

I think we can wait, as long there is some discussion going.

Can you play just a few turns to uncover more terrain and post some pictures? This would greatly help the discussion.

Just looking at what is revealed, there seems to be little urgency with Biology since there are quite a few food resources for the time being.
 
akots said:
Can you play just a few turns to uncover more terrain and post some pictures? This would greatly help the discussion.

If I understood what Lexad said correctly, he wants to run another test game before mkaing the choice about civics, and this choice should be done on the first turn.

akots said:
IMO, we should focus heavily on building 5 cities emphasizing food (good for whipping and in Representation also) as rapidly as possible so they can grow a bit to whip libraries and then universities after getting Education. This might require some unknowns to be considered such as need for a few military units just in case an AI or barbarians are around, more workers/boats, and may be happiness improvements as well (market ?? if time permits so that we have some margin before Representation). If there is no Org Religion, probably there is no rush to spread religion(s).
Yes, we need to build settlers & workers ASAP (2nd city needs a library before settler, but that's all). Based on my test game experience, with granary & forge new cities very quickly become usefull and the higher cost is reasonably well balanced.

The number of units we build will probably depend on whether we have neighbours or not. If we are isolated we'll probably build several warriors (before connecting iron) as cheap MP and use the starting longbows for protection against barbs. If we have nighbours we may want to build more and start limited wars to prevent them from settling.
 
About capital - i thing better bild it - when we start. I don t see better place. Second city on east with 2 gold and union food resurs.

Мое мнение - Столицу надо строить на месте, зачем куда то ходить. Лучше мест пока не видно по крайней мере в пределах 1 революционного хода. 2й город можно на востоке с общими ресурсами пищи и 2мя золотами.
 
As long as we're in anarchy for the starting 2 turns, we lose nothing while moving settlers, and southern site is much more suited for Bureau capital with 2 golds, while starting is an ideal GP farm.

Пока у нас 2 хода анархия будет, можем бегать сеттлерами бз потерь, а южный город с 2 золотами гораздо сильнее при бюро, чем северный, который будет мощной фабрикой Великих.
 
When yuo play from ansient and have rene how many part of yuo GNP give 2 gold mine? 2 gold mine with bureau and without bureau differnet on 8 gold. It is very few for rene-time. More impotant food resurse.
Когда ты играешь обычную игру и переходишь в ренессанс - большое значение в этот момент имеют 2 золотых шахты? Здесь их вес почти такой же. Золотые шахты с бюро это плюс 8 монет по сравнению с ними же без бюро - в ренессансе это копейки, ресурсы пищи гораздо важнее для развития.
 
Actually setlery far not so roads as seem - they always can srubit' and zasleyvit' even in new town in the flow of a few motions. New city of found with the heap of useful buildings, that obviously more advantageous what in old cities before setlers build libraries and other nonsense. Oxford is important - but in 5 cities are the beginning needed minimum. libraries / barracks / units it is possible to build in the moment of growth cities on necessary for sleyv number of habitants.
By the way, such question - as far as really rash all AI with that in the mode "always war" to stop them building new cities and engaged in expansion with that in budushem to build a minimum of bombs? To lock other variant their rapid expansion in bottlenecks limiting their number of cities.
На самом деле сетлеры далеко не так дороги как кажутся - их всегда можно срубить и заслейвить даже в новом городе в течении нескольких ходов. Новый город появляеться с кучей полезных построек, что явно выгодней чем в старых городах до сетлеров строить библиотеки и прочую ерунду. Важен Оксфорд - но вначале нужно минимум 5 городов. библиотеки / бараки / юниты можно строить в момент роста города на нужное для слейва число жителей.
Кстати, такой вопрос - насколько реально зарашить все АИ с тем чтобы в режиме "всегда война" не дать им построить новые города и заниматься экспансией с тем, чтобы в будушем строить минимум бомб? Другой вариант запереть их быстрой экспансией в узких местах ограничив их число городов.
 
However, bureaucracy + Oxford, factory of great - all of it then. In the beginning expansion - setlerspam. When it will leave off to depend on old cities, it is possible to engage in science in them.
Все же, бюрократия + Оксфорд, фабрика великих - все это потом. Вначале экспансия - сетлерспам. Когда она перестанет зависеть от старых городов, можно заняться наукой в них.
 
We still get food resurces, just different capital, and lose no production due to 2-turn anarchy. 2 gold mines with bureau = 3 gold mines, so south capital is a no-loss situation. We have a long tech path ahead, not just bulbing several techs as in online, and we need to use these resources optimally.

Так еда у нас все равно будет, просто другая столица, а мы ничео не теряем, т.к. анархия 2 хода. Две золотые шахты с бюро = 3 золотые шахты. Нам исследовать много, здесь игра не на раш великими нескольких военных тех, так что ресурсы надо использовать оптимально.

I've ran a couple of tests and tend to agree with Obormot on the starting civics and moves. Let's settle cities and look whast we get.
 
I agree we should prioritize stiffling AI to produce less nukes later - however, we do not know so far if we can do it. Definitely keep an eye on the opportunity.

Полностью согласен, при возможности очень важно не дать расселиться ИИ, но мы пока не знаем, можно ли это легко сделать. Будем посмотреть.
 
OK, I played two turns. Found nothing that could change our city placement decision. Civis switched, settlers are ready to found cities. I didn't actually do it yet, so that we can discuss which city will be the capital. Maybe Bemep has a point. Capital sttled in place will be a better science city in the late game, while the one with the gold hills will be better in the early game. Turn 2 save is uploaded.

abcdef.jpg
 
So we need to make another major decision: which of the two cities we want to be our capital. Then we can focus on micromanagement. There is another argument in favour of making the city at the starting spot our capital that I would add to what Bemep said: chopping. The city has a lot more forests in its FC = more hammer from chopping. It would be a better Oxford science city with representation and some happiness to enable a ton of specialists. The city with the gold hills will be better in the early game. There is also a 3rd option: make the gold city our capital, but still build Oxford in the 2nd city.

Here are some micromanagement ideas (with the capital near gold, didn't analyse the other option closely yet).

Spoiler :

1295 (2): Moscow settled near the gold hills (citizens: forest, plains gold, engineer), Begins worker. SPB settled at the starting spot (citizens: clams, forest, (not max food for the rounding bonus), citizen), begins workboat. Worker starts chopping. Research education @ 0%.
1300 (3): Pop-rush worker in Moscow (remaining citizen works forest).
1305 (4): New worker goes to the forest 1NW, Moscow begins another worker.
1310 (5): Workers chop the forest down.
1315 (6): Moscow builds worker #3, starts workboat. SPB gets a religion. All 3 workers begin farm 1NE of Moscow.
1320 (7):
1325 (8): Moscow builds WB, starts another WB. WB sails to clams. Citizen moved to farm. Workers finish the farm, invest two worker-turns into farming rice (pre-build).
1330 (9): SPB borders expand. All workers start farming corn. Citizen in Moscow moved back to forest.
1335 (10): SBP builds WB, WB from SPB sails to fish. Moscow borders expand, WB from moscow improves clams near Moscow. Adopt religion (I think it the best turn with 3 workers already built, but now bonus tiles improved yet & one of the workboats on the way to the fish tile).
1340 (11): Corn farm finished, two workers start pasture on cow. Fish net built. Out of anarchy. SPB works fish, cown, citizen, starts library. Moscow works clams, engineer.
1345 (12): Worker #3 starts farming rice. SPB grows to size 3, new citizen works forest.
1350 (13): Pasture on cows done.
1355 (14): One worker from cows goes N,NW. The other worker from cows goes to the green gold hill. SPB whips library, remaining citizens work corn, fish.
1360 (15): Citizen in SPB becomes scientist. Worker near iron begins mining iron. Worker on the gold hill begins mining it. Moscow grows to size 2, new citizen works cow.
1365 (16): Moscow builds WB, starts warrior (?). WB sails to SPB. Farm on rice finished. SPB grows to size 3, new citizen works rice.
1370 (17): SPB grows to size 4, new citizen becomes scientist. Begins worker. Worker from rice gows to the plains gold hill.
1375 (18): Moscow grows to size 4, new citizen takes corn from SPB. Citizen in SPB moved to plains forest.
1380 (19): Moscow builds warrior, starts another warrior.
1385 (20): Gold mine and iron mine finished. Moscow grows to size 4, new citizen works gold. Citizen in SPB moved from plains hill to iron.

This is far from perfect. Three workers seem to be enough to improve tiles at the same rate as the cities are growing, but no time left for chopping. I think we need to add a 4th early worker and chop more forests down. Also maybe we don't need to hurry so much with the library in SPB, citizen specialist is not that bad.


I attached the test save, corrected to match revealed terrain.
 
:( How yuo not understand - choping with buro it is more then 1 gold mine. And better if we chopping forest on hill where worker start - we have 2 worker on 2 turns before. in spoiler it is plan? very bad :) give me right test save!
 
when i am play multipleyer in rene - i am have 5-7 worker on 5 turn (quick speed) and bild revolution to serfdorm - then choping setler in capital about 8-10 turn...
In eras when we have matematics on start right MM choping many workers before connect food resurs.
on what building of Manhattan is planned motion?
Ну вы надеюсь поняли - молотки с бюро сразу, гораздо больше чем колбы с шахты в далеком будущем. очень зря ходили рабом вначале. Не надо обрабатывать пищу - вначале надо нарубить 6-9 рабов, паралелльно обрабатывая еду и постоянно дорубать их с появлением новых городов. Города не надо растить вначале, до некоего минимума рабов. Разве что дорастить до 4х строя деньги для быстрого производства сетлера. Совершенно не нужно вначале жителя ставить на золото - это торможение развития.
Такой вопрос - на каком ходу планируется постройка Манхеттена?
 
What will our science be on a finish? 1000 retorts? or even anymore. On this background superfluous 20 motions of the use of gold mine extremely little. Key tekhi or undertake great or in any case study in time. For example Oxford depends not so much from speed of education how many from speed of building 5 cities (or anymore? ) and libraries / universities in them - the last so much depends on the amount of workers.
Какой будет наша наука на финише? 1к колб? или даже больше. На этом фоне лишние 20 ходов использования золотой шахты крайне мало. Ключевые техи или берутся великими или в любом случае учатся вовремя. Например Оксфорд зависит не столько от скорости образования сколько от скорости постройки 5 городов (или больше? ) и библиотек/университетов в них - последнее очень сильно зависит от кол-ва рабочих.
 
There is 9 forests in the starting position and only 3 near the gold mines. 6 forests = 45 * 1.75 * 6 = 472.5 which is about 1 and a half settler (340 each). Also, this is one-time bonus. IMO, we are better off in slavery and working food-rich resources than chopping. Of course, we should chop as soon as possible but this does not justify serfdom. I'm not sure about the capital any longer since it might be able to grow more rapidly to larger size at the starting position and whipping there would also have a bureaucracy bonus.
 
Bemep speaks very true things, and thank him for moving the discussion from the starting point!

Short notes on start:
- borders should expand ~the same whichever city is the capital (Holy city should expand 1 turn earlier)
- Northern city has 2 land food resources and has to build 3 boats for using others, or otherwise it will deny Southern city its food - only cow and clams available non-shared, none for the first 7 or 8 turns
- as Southern has no food in 1st radius, Northern can pop-rush a boat and work clams in its 1st radius, while the Southern works rice
This would of course matter little if we start from pop-rushing workers :)

Now as for which city should be capital. As we do not have serfdom for chopping to play major role, slavery comes forth as the primary source of hammers. This means food. Southern city has access to all land-based grain and more - green cow. Everything else requires additional investments in boats which will slow down the growth of respective city. Thus Southern will grow faster on 3 foods - yes, it will work gold only at pop 4 while making a settler, but neither it will work it if it isn't capital, so not much loss here. So we get faster growth – faster settlers AND higher commerce with capital and food at Southern city, while Northern build boats; Southern can build 1 boat while growing to spare 1 grain to Northern.

As akots said, forest chopping difference (which 6 forests * 50% bureau = 132 hammers on Epic) is not extreme, and will be compensated soon enough by bureau bonus to hammers and commerce in Southern capital.
Should we attempt using the culture-building fore border expansion?

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Ветер обращает внимание на очень верные вещи, отдельное спасибо за оживление обсуждения :)

Короткие заметки насчет старта:
- границы расширятся на 7-8 ходу независимо от того, какой город – столица (Святой вроде на ход раньше)
- у Северного города 2 еды на земле, для остальных ему надо 3 лодки, иначе он заморит Южный, у которого свои только корова и ракушки
- т.к. у Южного еды в первом радиусе нет, Северный может отдать ему рис. А сам рашнуть лодку и расти на ракушках
Последнее не важно, если мы начнем с раша рабов :)

Теперь по кандидатуре столицы. Т.к. крепостного права у нас нет, чтобы рубка леса достаточно влияла, скорость сеттлеров определять будет рабство. Т.е. еда. У Южного есть доступ к обоим зернам (как и у Северного) и еще зеленой корове, а все остальные ресурсы требуют доп. инвестиций в лодки, что затормозит соотв. город. Так, Южный будет расти на 3 едах до 4, после чего сеттлера и рашить за 2 (примерно), и только тогда будет работать на золоте (как, впрочем, и если бы не был столицей) – выгода небольшая, но есть. Т.е. мы получим более быстрый рост – более ранние сеттлеры в случае, если еду отдать Южному, пока Северный строит/рубит лодки; Южный может во время роста сделать свою лодку и отдать 1 еду Северному.

Как сказал акотс, разница в рубке леса не мега (6 лесов на 50% бюро = 132 молотка на Эпике) и достаточно быстро скомпенсируется бюнусом бюро на золотые шахты.

Будем юзать строительство культуры в ход расширения границ?
 
One more point amiss – National Wonders. Northern will definitely have National Epic, and with pre-Bio pop of at least 17 (5 resources + farm + iron + 10 specialists), and up to 29 if we irrigate post-Bio all non-capital food. This calls for Globe and leaves no place for Oxford.
But to decide on where should Oxford be built, we must:
- compare its expected effect after Repr: how many scientists do we plan in Northern, and how would they stand against Southern's comemrce from gold, sea and cottages?
- will we be able to still be the first to Liber without early boost to commerce?

Intuitively I want to get both Hammer and Commerce boost from Bureau, so prefer South as a capital, but we should compare

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Еще один неучтенный пункт – НацЧуда. В Северный определенно пойдет НацЭпос, и с населением до Био минимум 17 (5 ресов + ирригационная ферма + железо + 10 спецов), а после Био до 29, если залить все, что не принадлежит Южному. В этой ситуации очень хоцца Глобус, и тогда для Оксфорда не будет места.
Но, чтобы решить, где строить Оксфорд, надо:
- сравнить ожидаемый выхлоп после представительства – спецы Северного против коммерции Южного с золота, моря и коттеджей
- понять, без раннего плюса к коммерции успеем ли мы к Либеру первыми

Интуитивно хочется получить разгон не только молотков, но и коммерции от Бюро, поэтому пока Южный греет больше.
 
... Intuitively I want to get both Hammer and Commerce boost from Bureau, so prefer South as a capital ...

Well, Civ4 is not an intuitive game. However, in this situation, it is very hard to compare the exact numbers. It would probably come out even in either case and if there is an advantage, it might be quite small. This is all just intuitive speculations and running an exact test to prove the point might be required. Just because the best solution can be counter-intuitive.

It again depends on what are the goals. Would it be OK to risk Liberalism but to ensure early expansion and early Oxford? Would it be OK to have early bonus to get Liberalism or to plan for later game with uber-capital and super-powerful empire risking to miss Liberalism (or not taking Constitution) by stagnating early research and Great Scientist farming?
 
I agree, that's why we should analyse deeper.
 
Lexad said:
Now as for which city should be capital. As we do not have serfdom for chopping to play major role, slavery comes forth as the primary source of hammers. This means food. Southern city has access to all land-based grain and more - green cow. Everything else requires additional investments in boats which will slow down the growth of respective city. Thus Southern will grow faster on 3 foods - yes, it will work gold only at pop 4 while making a settler, but neither it will work it if it isn't capital, so not much loss here. So we get faster growth – faster settlers AND higher commerce with capital and food at Southern city, while Northern build boats; Southern can build 1 boat while growing to spare 1 grain to Northern.
I think we want to grow to maximum possible size and then rush settlers for as many pop as possible, especially in the capital. Otherwise we are loosing the forge & bureau bonus. The best thing would be to chop some forest and then rush immidiately on the following turn. While growing to max size we should have enough time to build boats. Northern city has 1 more food resource, so it should whip settlers faster then the sothern one. If we don't work the gold, then the difference is insignificant, but if we do then the northern city will be far ahead.
 
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