SGOTM 10 - Team Liz

[Paul#42]

Here the votes of the German jury:

No to waiting for someone to research CoL. Don't rely on AI in research (lesson learned in SGotm9).

Yes to Exploring more soon - we could use 1-2 luxuries now that our towns are growing. This might change a prio for next towns after ltblue. And of course after some trades, horses might show up.
Plus we might spot some barb camps to take out for some archer promotions and deficit research (although MP has high prio, too).

Yes to the trade-off: 1(-2) archers less from 'ham growing from 3 to 3 and then to 5 - minimize flip risks as long as we don't own enough archers to take back. Keep other towns at 3 by building workers where possible.
(Although joining the worker might be a tough decision...)

I fear we might get some severe (ordinary) barb issues soon...

 

[Andronicus]

Its 1675BC and I have decided to pause to ask the team a couple of questions

Turn log so far

Preturn
Hastings -> worker
Canterbury -> granary
Settler -> Lt B dot
Nott works irr plains
Lux -> 20
York warrior -> London
2nd London warrior -> Hastings
Hastings warrior -> explore
IBT
Nott rax -> archer

1870AD
Meet Mayans they are up at least 4 techs, no gold
W worker -> sheep
Just realise worker by Canterbury is fortified! -> wake and send to forest to chop
IBT
Incans are building collosus, so are barbarians

1830BC
York 2nd citizen moved to oysters, London takes irr plain
east work irr sheep

1790BC
Settler arrives at Lt B dot - it has gold hill plus at least 1 other hill - this will be a super city, but 3 jungle (1 goes with settling) and 6 marsh will require some work
York's worker -> sheep
IBT
London settler -> settler

1750BC
Settle Coventry at Lt B dot -> start worker
Settler -> red dot
IBT
York worker -> warrior
Hastings worker -> warrior
Dutch also building colossus

1725AD
Hastings worker connects road
York worker -> Coventry
Cant run 10% lux as Canterbury size 2 with no mp
Send Nott warrior to bust fog in NW
IBT
forest chop to Canterbury
Nottingham archer -> archer

1700BC
science to 50% and phil in 1

IBT
Learn philo
Trades via TBP
Phil to Maya for 46g, masonary, wheel + CB
Inca has monopoly on HBR - will not trade
Phil to Byz for 29g + myst
Phil to Dutch for 25g + BW
Phil + 2g to Incans for IW (they remani up HBR and have 27g)
Sumeria have only 2g so no trade
Free CoL -> commence Republic


Questions to team
Should we do min run to rep in 50 and accumulate some dough, or push science as hard as possible running down our bank account and maybe getting to rep about 5 turns earlier? I vote for min run.

Should we shift red dot 1 tile SE, still on river, saves forest, but loses BG by horse? I would like it to go 1 SE.

Note we have iron and horses handy - we may want to settle east of Canterbury fairly soon to secure horses. Whats the odds of Coventry being a iron works city in industrial ages (if we get that far)?


edit - I'll cont in the morning (plan to play to turn 60 to bring us back in line with usual save)
Next settler going to dark blue dot, then I would be keen to send a settler to claim horses to east of Canterbury - I plan to send Yorks's warrior there to bust fog in 3 turns. We must secure this area soon as it is close to Incans (even now we may find ourselves too late and have to fight for horses - at least we can have swords)

Another thought - if we are going to save pennies I could put Nott to 2 turn vet warriors and upgrade once we have 10 or 12 and iron connected?

 

[Paul#42]

Nice CoL-Slingshot!

Questions to team
Should we do min run to rep in 50 and accumulate some dough, or push science as hard as possible running down our bank account and maybe getting to rep about 5 turns earlier? I vote for min run.

What does CivAssist2 tell about tech cost for Rep? How many beakers do we make right now @100%
If we can win (with some prospected growth) more than 15 turns, go max, otherwise min. We could use some gold in Rep for unit support...

Should we shift red dot 1 tile SE, still on river, saves forest, but loses BG by horse? I would like it to go 1 SE.

I like the spot SE of red. The lost BG will fit some horse breeding farm.

Note we have iron and horses handy - we may want to settle east of Canterbury fairly soon to secure horses. Whats the odds of Coventry being a iron works city in industrial ages (if we get that far)?

Let's get those horses soon, with unit support costs threatening I'd like quality over quantity.

 

[Abegweit]

Good trading.

Would it be possible to post the save? Here perhaps? Like Paul, I'd like to see what's up. And I can't see what the situation is west of Nottingham.

I tend to be against minscis in C3C. Fifty turns is just too long. What happens is that after 35 turns, someone discovers it and you find you've lost all trade value. Then you have a choice of continuing for 15 more long turns or throwing it all away. So you're shut out of the trading at the beginning of the ME. Furthermore, massive upgrading is just too expensive too. I suggest instead that we go Math-Currency and come back to Republic when we are more productive. Poly is another possibility.

I don't like moving RedDot. First it loses the BG and this city should probably build our FP. Second, another city should probably go on the bend in the river 3 SE of RedDot. That gets quite crowded.

If we do go massive upgrade, I'd like to get some chariots. We could do this even if we don't go minsci. They are a lot cheaper to upgrade than warriors - and better value for the money too.

Thought: Should Horsetown come before Blue? We need to stake out that spot.

 

[AlanH]

Links to saves are on the SGOTM Progress page. The date under "Latest Save" links to your ... latest save It's actually safer to use them as they link to the definitive latest save, as recorded in the database.

 

[Paul#42]

I tend to be against minscis in C3C. Fifty turns is just too long. What happens is that after 35 turns, someone discovers it and you find you've lost all trade value. Then you have a choice of continuing for 15 more long turns or throwing it all away. So you're shut out of the trading at the beginning of the ME. Furthermore, massive upgrading is just too expensive too.

At least you got some money by then - but I feel similar. Yet, if it takes more than 40 turns (even at optimistic calculation) I suggest minsci. But I do not think it will take that long.

I suggest instead that we go Math-Currency and come back to Republic when we are more productive. Poly is another possibility.

No! That wastes too much time researching in Despotism! Republic is the way to go. If we are lucky we get Maths traded for CoL while researching Rep.

I don't like moving RedDot. First it loses the BG and this city should probably build our FP. Second, another city should probably go on the bend in the river 3 SE of RedDot. That gets quite crowded.

Good point about the "wounded knee". If 3SE of red dot is still on the river that would be a nice site we lose by moving. Although saving (not burning but chopping it ) the rainforest is always tempting...

If we do go massive upgrade, I'd like to get some chariots. We could do this even if we don't go minsci. They are a lot cheaper to upgrade than warriors - and better value for the money too.

Can't follow you here. You mean chariot --> knight (70-20s = 100g) is cheaper than warrior --> MI (40-10 = 60g)?
That's a bit like comparing apples and bananas, right?

 

[Andronicus]

I've posted the save on the server for those who wish to have a look - I'm off to sleep now - look forward to reading your comments in morning

Quick comment on points mentioned above
Settling horses next means guessing best site, but waiting 1 more setter (4 more turns) means warrior can check out area, but runs risk of just getting beaten. Thinking about it I favour getting horses with next settler and just wing it for position - if we dont like it later we can always move it, but getting horses is important IMO.

 

[Abegweit]

The upgrade is from chariot to horse.

As for research, I am against minscis. I am not against a flat out charge for Republic. If it can be done in 30 turns or so, let's go for it.

The advantage of the other route is to get stuff to trade while keeping Republic for ourselves. If we go Republic first, we may be shut out of the trade game altogether. We want to finish this continent with Knights and that will be very difficult to do if we have a big tech deficit.

I personally think that a charge is the way to go but we neeed more info before deciding. Incidently, the cost of Republic is 840 and, at the beginning of Andronicus' turns, we were making 19gpt after corruption. That's sounds pretty good to me. Already 44 turns and it can only get better.

Edit: Looked at the save. Economy now 27 after corruption (= 31 turns). I know which way I want to go.

 

[Paul#42]

Settling
I'm torn about the red dot. Slightly in favor of not moving further.
Finding the best site near horsies will be no problem even without previous exploration. The moment our settler climbs that horses hill, he will know where to go (or stay, if another settler is near). The tiles NW, S and SW are out of discussion, right? NE of horsie hill looks promissing although those Incan borders look scary. I smell culture

Research
Republic in 31 @max convinces me. That's our way.

horses or chariots
I won't artificially delay getting hbr in order to do some serious upgrading later. Even that small amount of money will be difficult to get while researching @max. But after getting horses we can of course tinker some carts before we learn how to not get unseated

factories
It's a long way to Coventry - Do we want to go through marsh or Iron hill? We will have to connect it to use it best.

shiny happy people
no luxuries in sight?
Did our rivals already detect some?

 

[Abegweit]

It's a long way to Coventry - Do we want to go through marsh or Iron hill? We will have to connect it to use it best.

The best way initially is probably through RedDot, the BG and the forest. Later we'll have more direct routes. One good thing: there's lots of forests in the area to get the granary up faster.

no luxuries in sight?
Did our rivals already detect some?

Only the Incas

 

[Redbad]

We should at this moment also answer the question if we want the AI to help us with research. It is pangea at emporer level so they can help us up until somewhat in MA. If we do want them to help us, then trading CoL for HBR is in order and seeing that everyone gets all these techs. That way they won't waste research on techs already known. I'm in favour of that, as I think knowledge is more to our advantage then it is to the barbs.

Fighting with horses is better I think then fighting with swordsmen. The loss rate isn't very different, they're faster and upgrade to knights/cavalry. So I would keep Nottingham on archers and connect the horses real soon. Then we can switch to horsemen. Btw for building horsemen we have different optimal productionnumbers for Nottingham.

I would settle at reddot. It is a very high productionsite. It would be a great aid in the wareffort and I believe it should be devoted to military as wel.
btw. I doub't if this city will be the logical choice for an FP. I think it's production will be quite high without an FP. The FP could imo best be build in a half-corrupt city in a productive environment. That way we would benefit most from the reduced corruption.

I'm in favour of doing a minimal on Republic. The AI can research the AA techs and we pointy stick it out of them. We'll be saving money for upgrades or for extreme research in the MA. And when on the warpath there's no need for trading value for Republic. If the AI beat us to it, we will beat it out of them or buy us the remaining turns.

At this point in time we are both expanding peacefully and preparing for war. Rushing to Republic isn't very advantageous now as it makes unit costs high due to our growing numbers of workers and military. And in the AA the emperor AI can easily research the rest. Our army will give us cities, techs, slaves and chances of MGLs. And of course it can handle a barb treat. Somewhat into the military campaign when our numbers of founded and captured cities are substantial we can switch to republic and start research for ourself again

 

[Abegweit]

Nice plan. You got me convinced.

Btw for building horsemen we have different optimal productionnumbers for Nottingham.

Which is yet another reason for skipping size 4.

 

[Paul#42]

I do not trust the AIs' research capabilities too much but I bow to the majority let's get Republic minsci.

If the AI is likely to prefer Maths over CoL we should wait, trade and spread both, if they prefer CoL we should spread it soon. Any AI research specialists around?

If they do not seize the chance we offer them,

 

[Abegweit]

They don't like math. It's one of the biggest problems with waiting for the AI to do the job.

 

[Andronicus]

I'd like to pause the game a little longer for further discussion

Missing the rep slingshot is a significant deviation on our plans. Even if we can research rep at max in 35 turns (which I think is overly optimistic, but ...) we will still be some 20 turns later at learning republic than if we got full slingshot.

This is not all bad

As mentioned, at least we did get a freebie and not miss out on getting to phily first. Further, earlier CoL and phil allows us to spread these to the AI earlier and reduce wasted research by them. I am keen to spread CoL as soon as other techs come in. I expect MM and poly to be researched in next 10 turns, maths - well .

If we go the line of minsci towards rep this gives us 50 turns for London to produce 13 settlers and for us to build up an army and aquire settlements from Incans. This would give us a large base when switching to rep and shifting focus to infrastructure as we then research any remaining AA techs quickly and move on to knights to take over our continent.
I suggest spending our gpt saved on minsci to speed AI research. This has added benefit of keeping AI off our backs as we push expansion and keeps others from joining Inca dude's side when we war against him.
We could even pay Incans gpt for 20 turns for HBR using thiose 20 turns to build horsies to take off him whatever techs he researches in the meantime. (Plus of course take his towns - is it hoping too much he might miss out on Oracle and slip into pyramids instead?)

Anyway these thoughts are very different to what we were discussing a few days ago so I would like some careful consideration first.

 

[Andronicus]

Paul asked the question

It's a long way to Coventry

which Abegweit replied correctly that access will initially be via the BG to east

however I misread the question as referring to its a long way to Coventry being ready for worker factory (it was listed under heading factory)
So I put together my suggestion of how to prepare it

The tiles needing improvement include (with worker turns in brackets)
N fish marsh - clear (16), mine (6), road (3) = 25 turns
S fish marsh - clear (16), mine (6), road (3) = 25
BG - mine (6), road (3) = 9
Thats 50 turns without roading, 59 with roading

Granary (worker completes in 5 turns)
starts size 1.02 works fish, 6 turns 1spt +2 growth -> 8 + chop =18
9 turns working forest + mBG 4spt ->36 =54
2 turn lake fish + mBG -> granary at size 2.15

Thats 22 turns from now, so requires 3 workers to improve the tiles. The BG will be mined soon by the worker near red dot, but we need that worker, the one to come from Coventry and 1 of the 2 connecting Hastings to prepare the fish marshes. I suggest the one to mine the BG should then chop the forest on their way (he has time to mine and road BG then chop forest well before granary due), Coventry's worker goes straight onto N fish marsh which worker from Hastings should start as soon as reaches.

 

[Abegweit]

Missing the rep slingshot is a significant deviation on our plans. Even if we can research rep at max in 35 turns (which I think is overly optimistic, but ...) we will still be some 20 turns later at learning republic than if we got full slingshot.

Missing the slingshot was a setback but we never would have switched to Republic immediately. We would have gotten it 10-15 turns from now and switched 10-15 turns later. A flat out run leads to a fairly similar time (and it would be far faster than 35 turns; however, as you say, but...). It's not the timing; it's the cost. Republic for free...

Redbad has suggested an alternative path. I'm not much of an expert on early war, preferring to do most of my fighting with knights and cavs. Maybe it's time that I learned something about it - and he is right that we have two good unit producers.

As mentioned, at least we did get a freebie and not miss out on getting to phily first. Further, earlier CoL and phil allows us to spread these to the AI earlier and reduce wasted research by them. I am keen to spread CoL as soon as other techs come in. I expect MM and poly to be researched in next 10 turns, maths - well .

CoL is an AI favourite, more popular than Poly. Don't count on it being monopoly for long. Furthermore, we could get extorted and would have to give in. I agree with Redbad. Sell it for whatever you can get - which probably isn't much.

I suggest spending our gpt saved on minsci to speed AI research. This has added benefit of keeping AI off our backs as we push expansion and keeps others from joining Inca dude's side when we war against him.
We could even pay Incans gpt for 20 turns for HBR using thiose 20 turns to build horsies to take off him whatever techs he researches in the meantime. (Plus of course take his towns - is it hoping too much he might miss out on Oracle and slip into pyramids instead?)

I am opposed to feeding the AI. Use the money for self-research once we finally get to Republic. We donot want to have to research cavs.That's two useless techs.

Anyway these thoughts are very different to what we were discussing a few days ago so I would like some careful consideration first.

Indeed.

 

[Redbad]

Anyway these thoughts are very different to what we were discussing a few days ago...

Yes, wasn't it some Douglas McArthur who said that the plan is the first to fall in contact with the enemy.

I suggest spending our gpt saved on minsci to speed AI research. This has added benefit of keeping AI off our backs as we push expansion and keeps others from joining Inca dude's side when we war against him.
We could even pay Incans gpt for 20 turns for HBR using thiose 20 turns to build horsies to take off him whatever techs he researches in the meantime.

I like this idea, though not for getting HBR. My objective too is to get AI research speed high. For ourselfs we're not interested in any tech specificly (the next relevant techs for us are IMO republic, feudalism (mark 3 defenders) and literature (libs)). We just want the research to be fast.

This is the time that the AI can still be helpfull in the research business. Because we're growing rapidly, we will be far faster in research in the MA then any AI. To maximise this effect we let the AI research and we only humbly offer our services in spreading the good news (while amassing troops ).
We need to avoid the AI researching techs already known. So we trade CoL for HBR and gift/sel these techs to everyone. When at any time some AI comes up with a tech we will try to get it for gpt. When we get it we sel/gift it around.

The fact that everybody is researching new techs as much as possible is an advantage of this. But also that the AIs who come with new techs (probably the best researchers) get rewarded by gpt. This will enhance their research capabilities and make them less hostile.

When our army is operational we take out the AI. Best to start with the weaker researchers. They're no loss to research and they don't destroy our gpt-for-tech reputation. With this strategy the fysical demise of the AI is in line with the demise of their usefulness for research.

If we push hard enough on building our horsies, most of the plan could be done with horsemen. When the AI starts to research feudalism we only need to knock out the iron. It is, I think, more economical to fight 20 shield spears with 30 shield horses, then to fight 30 shield pikes with 70 shield knights, apart from the required extra research.

Edit:
When I said that feudalism is a relevant tech as it makes mark3 defenders possible, I don't mean we should want it. But it is relevant if the AI has it, of course.

 

[Paul#42]

Heading for a further delay of forming a republic I come up with Abegweit's idea I had harshly rejected earlier: How about researching (and spreading) Maths at max before researching Republic minsci?
We would very likely be able to end the Ancient times by trading everything after finishing it and might be able to revolt via TBP then.

Otherwise I see us still researching maths and currency after getting republic

Getting Coventry running is quite an effort and we might want to think whether there are easier (yet less promissing) spots to develop first with a more immediate trade off.

 

[Redbad]

How about researching (and spreading) Maths at max before researching Republic minsci?

I'm not sure what problem will be solved by this. When we trade CoL for HBR the AI can choose researching:
mathematics, polytheism, map making, literature and republic.
With the exception of republic I don't really care which they choose to research. Best would be if each AI chose a different tech, but that we can't control I think. We just can do our best to spread it when a new tech is known.

I have no reason to think they detest mathematics to the point that they refuse to research it, so they will research it too. When it comes to selfresearch techs it's more efficient to do it as a republic then as a despot.