SGOTM 10 - Xteam

Frederiksberg · Aug 21, 2009

Cactus Pete said:
Please be more specific re: "eventually start sending longbows towards our cities." Hope leif is able to have a go as well.

I think it took something like 10 turns from the DOW before Gandhi sent a couple of longbows in our direction. This may also be an argument in favor of delaying the DOW so that we have time to connect the iron and build 1-2 maces to prevent longbows from pillaging or even capturing our warrior defended cities. Spending hammers on maces is one of the down sides of declaring war since it will directly affect science negatively by delaying libraries, NE etc. Hopefully we can avoid building maces in St. Pete thus minimizing the damage.

Frederiksberg · Aug 21, 2009

Mad Professor said:
The results are very varied, to the point of bewildering. Sometimes the caravel wanders around aimlessly, and other times it seems to beeline either eastwards or westwards. I don't understand what directive is driving it other than a combination of random exploration plus fortunate or unfortunate land placement turning the caravel's nose.

I think you can safely assume that the caravel movements are always random in the sense that the AI objective is only to defog more tiles. When you say it's beelining east or west it's probably only your brain that's trying to make sense out of chaos like in a Rorschach test or when you see a cloud that resembles an animal.

ShannonCT · Aug 21, 2009

Frederiksberg said:
I think it took something like 10 turns from the DOW before Gandhi sent a couple of longbows in our direction. This may also be an argument in favor of delaying the DOW so that we have time to connect the iron and build 1-2 maces to prevent longbows from pillaging or even capturing our warrior defended cities. Spending hammers on maces is one of the down sides of declaring war since it will directly affect science negatively by delaying libraries, NE etc. Hopefully we can avoid building maces in St. Pete thus minimizing the damage.

We could build an elephant or two instead of maces so we can leave the iron unhooked. We still need cheap MPs and fogbusters. Elephants upgrade to cossacks later.

Frederiksberg said:
I think you can safely assume that the caravel movements are always random in the sense that the AI objective is only to defog more tiles. When you say it's beelining east or west it's probably only your brain that's trying to make sense out of chaos like in a Rorschach test or when you see a cloud that resembles an animal.

We're not talking about whether the caravel's path looks like a butterfly or an orchid, but whether the caravel is programmed to continue in one direction.

I think I've figured out the code in CvUnitAI.cpp. If a unit is designated as a sea explorer, it looks for fogged tiles within a certain range and is given preference to go toward fogged tiles. Then it checks for whether circumnavigation is available. If it is, it checks whether the world wrap is in the X direction or the Y direction or both. Then it is given preference to go in the direction that the world is wrapping. There is a variable that keeps track of in which direction the ship went the previous turn, so the ship doesn't backtrack. The only thing that I'm not sure about is whether the results of these calculations is deterministic or probabilistic. But either way, the AI does make some effort to get the circumnavigation bonus.

But here's the only question that matters for the actions we take. Does it make sense to contact the Americans next turn and then turn west to contact the other AI and try to circumnavigate? I say absolutely yes. Every American leader will sell his map. Waiting another 10 turns to contact the Americans by workboat could cost us circumnavigation, and there's no need for a workboat to explore land that will be reveled by the American map.

Frederiksberg · Aug 21, 2009

ShannonCT said:
We could build an elephant or two instead of maces so we can leave the iron unhooked. We still need cheap MPs and fogbusters. Elephants upgrade to cossacks later.

Elephants would do well also.

ShannonCT said:
But here's the only question that matters for the actions we take. Does it make sense to contact the Americans next turn and then turn west to contact the other AI and try to circumnavigate? I say absolutely yes. Every American leader will sell his map. Waiting another 10 turns to contact the Americans by workboat could cost us circumnavigation, and there's no need for a workboat to explore land that will be reveled by the American map.

Contacting the Americans is probably best since the work boat is very slow. Before buying the American map we should buy Gandhi's map again and compare against our previous map. This will give us some information on how his ship(s) are moving and perhaps tell us if we should continue east with the caravel or turn back and go west via China and England.

So perhaps you should play those two turns soon and then post saves after 1) Buying Gandhi's map again 2) After buying the American map. Also start preparing to hook the ivory and move the northern longbow next to the Indian ivory.

Cactus Pete · Aug 21, 2009

"We could build an elephant or two instead of maces so we can leave the iron unhooked. We still need cheap MPs and fogbusters. Elephants upgrade to cossacks later." For our short-term purposes WE are almost as good as maces, and the availabiltiy of very cheap units will also provide possible sacrifices to aid the war effort.

If we delay war until circum, would urge we set up to pillage G's ivory and get our own ivory improved and hooked ASAP. Don't need iron hooked until we have horses, as long as we deny G WEs.

ShannonCT · Aug 21, 2009

OK, good, so it seems I can proceed for a few turns. If every turn set takes this long, we'll never finish on time. :lol:

ShannonCT · Aug 21, 2009

Played to T20.

Gandhi's worker went 1N and is building a road. I still don't see a second worker. Buying Gandhi's map on T20 shows his caravel went 1E2SE and has spotted some barb borders on a landmass that isn't blocking his path so far. His map of the west didn't change. I met Roosevelt, opened borders with him, and bought his map for 50 gold. Unfortunately, it looks like he hasn't built any ships. He's done a good bit of exploration by land, and has revealed that the Americans, Chinese, and English are on a single large continent. It looks like that continent doesn't extend much farther east than Washington.

ShannonCT · Aug 21, 2009

I'm thinking I should end my turnset on T23 after paying a visit to the Chinese and English.

Cactus Pete · Aug 21, 2009

Looks good. Do you still thing G has another boat heading west? Need to keep track of what gets built in both cities if possible.

Mad Professor · Aug 21, 2009

Can't tell from the pics whether Gandhi extended his map in the west or not.

Good idea to pay a visit to the Chinese and English. We need a map that goes further west than Gandhi's so that if that caravel in the east continues east (like it did in that turn) we can still get circumnavigation before Gandhi by continuing to buy Gandhi's map.

Maybe the Chinese map will give us what we need? Do Chinese leaders like trading maps?

Mad Professor · Aug 21, 2009

Cactus Pete said:
If we delay war until circum, would urge we set up to pillage G's ivory and get our own ivory improved and hooked ASAP. Don't need iron hooked until we have horses, as long as we deny G WEs.

Hopefully we can catch a worker improving one of those ivories and so catch a worker then plunder any improvement with the same unit.

ShannonCT · Aug 21, 2009

Mad Professor said:
Maybe the Chinese map will give us what we need? Do Chinese leaders like trading maps?

Mao and Victoria will trade maps at Cautious. I guess the leaders we will find are Mao and Churchill since the three leaders in the game so far have been the 20th century ones: Stalin, Gandhi, and Roosevelt. De Gaulle is the only leader left from the 20th century. De Gaulle will trade maps at Cautious. I'll compile a list of details about the 5 modern AI.

ShannonCT · Aug 21, 2009

Gandhi:

Base attitude: 2 (hidden +2 diplo modifier)
Base Peaceweight: 10 (very peaceful)
Espionage Weight: 50 (very low espionage spending)
Tech Trade Known Percent: 20 (will trade techs easily)
Tech Refuse Attitude: None (will trade at any attitude if we aren't his worst enemy)
WFYABTA tech limit: 15
Build Unit Probability: 15 (very low)
Strategic Resource Trade: Cautious or above
Health/Happiness Resource Trade: Any Attitude
Map Trade: Any Attitude
Open Borders: Any Attitude
Favorite Civic: Universal Suffrage
Flavor: Culture
Declare War Probabilities: Friendly 0%, Pleased 0%, Cautious 30%, Annoyed 80%

Roosevelt:
Base Attitude: 1
Base Peaceweight: 8
Espionage Weight: 120
Tech Trade Known Percent: 30
Tech Trade Attitude: Cautious or above
WFYABTA tech limit: 15
Build Unit Probability: 20
Strategic Resource Trade: Pleased or above
Health/Happiness Resource Trade: Annoyed or above
Map Trade: Cautious or above
Open Borders: Cautious or above
Favorite Civic: Mercantilism
Flavor: Production and Gold
Declare War Probabilities: Friendly 0%, Pleased 10%, Cautious 50%, Annoyed 90%

Mao:
Base Attitude: 0
Base Peaceweight: 1
Espionage Weight: 130
Tech Trade Known Percent: 50
Tech Trade Attitude: Cautious or above
WFYABTA tech limit: 5
Build Unit Probability: 25
Strategic Resource Trade: Pleased or above
Health/Happiness Resource Trade: Cautious or above
Map Trade: Cautious or above
Open Borders: Cautious or above
Favorite Civic: State Property
Flavor: Production and Growth
Declare War Probabilities: Friendly 0%, Pleased 20%, Cautious 70%, Annoyed 100%

Churchill:
Base Attitude: 0
Base Peaceweight: 6
Espionage Weight: 120
Tech Trade Known Percent: 30
Tech Trade Attitude: Cautious or above
WFYABTA tech limit: 15
Build Unit Probability: 25
Strategic Resource Trade: Cautious or above
Health/Happiness Resource Trade: Annoyed or above
Map Trade: Pleased or above
Open Borders: Cautious or above
Favorite Civic: Nationhood
Flavor: Military and Gold
Declare War Probabilities: Friendly 0%, Pleased 0%, Cautious 30%, Annoyed 80%

De Gaulle:
Base Attitude: -1
Base Peaceweight: 0
Espionage Weight: 110
Tech Trade Known Percent: 40
Tech Trade Attitude: Cautious or above
WFYABTA tech limit: 10
Build Unit Probability: 25
Strategic Resource Trade: Cautious or above
Health/Happiness Resource Trade: Cautious or above
Map Trade: Cautious or above
Open Borders: Cautious or above
Favorite Civic: Nationhood
Flavor: Production and Growth
Declare War Probabilities: Friendly 0%, Pleased 0%, Cautious 30%, Annoyed 80%

Frederiksberg · Aug 21, 2009

How far are we behind Gandhi's caravel? If he spent two turns moving 1E2SE we may be able to catch him going east.

How many tiles in western direction do we need to uncover from the Chinese or English map in order to have information extending beyond Gandhi's current western fog limit? The lower the count the more likely that we can achieve this goal by heading west.

ShannonCT · Aug 21, 2009

Frederiksberg said:
How far are we behind Gandhi's caravel? If he spent two turns moving 1E2SE we may be able to catch him going east.

We're 9-10 tiles behind. So call that 3-4 turns. Last turn he went E-SE-SE. I still call that beelining east. I don't see much hope in catching him going east.

Frederiksberg said:
How many tiles in western direction do we need to uncover from the Chinese or English map in order to have information extending beyond Gandhi's current western fog limit? The lower the count the more likely that we can achieve this goal by heading west.

Gandhi's map extends 9 tiles further west than Roosevelt's map of the big continent. Roosevelt probably has one of his explorers going west on the big continent. He could get further west than Gandhi's map in as few as 5 turns if the continent is long enough. So could Mao. If Gandhi doesn't explore further west, his caravel will circumnavigate in as few as 9 turns.

Frederiksberg · Aug 21, 2009

ShannonCT said:
We're 9-10 tiles behind. So call that 3-4 turns. Last turn he went E-SE-SE. I still call that beelining east. I don't see much hope in catching him going east.

In addition to catching up we may also find the unknown civ in the eastern direction. If you are correct in your guessing and it is De Gaulle we could also win the race by buying his map.

ShannonCT said:
Gandhi's map extends 9 tiles further west than Roosevelt's map of the big continent. Roosevelt probably has one of his explorers going west on the big continent. He could get further west than Gandhi's map in as few as 5 turns if the continent is long enough. So could Mao. If Gandhi doesn't explore further west, his caravel will circumnavigate in as few as 9 turns.

So if the big continent doesn't stretch 10 or more tiles west (which is quite a bit) I guess we have lost our chances of circumnavigation. No extra chances here. The same is the case if Gandhi does indeed have a galley/caravel that can continue scouting west.

Either way it looks like we need some luck to achieve circumnavigation.

ShannonCT · Aug 21, 2009

I plan on finishing my turnset in about 3 hours. I'll contact the Chinese and English, buy maps from everyone I can, trade resources, spy on Gandhi. It'll give us enough information to go forward.

Cactus Pete · Aug 21, 2009

Good. I'll stay up. Please post if you have to delay until tomorrow.

leif erikson · Aug 21, 2009

ShannonCT said:
I plan on finishing my turnset in about 3 hours. I'll contact the Chinese and English, buy maps from everyone I can, trade resources, spy on Gandhi. It'll give us enough information to go forward.

Good Luck and Happy Hunting!

I'll be anxious to read all about it in the morning... :sleep:

ShannonCT · Aug 22, 2009

Save is up. France is the final Civ. We met Mao and Churchill. Gandhi continues toward circumnavigation but we have a good chance to steal it from him.

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