SGOTM 10 - Xteam

[ShannonCT]

"I'll post a dot map." CONSIDER NEXT TO THE HORSES AND ON THE ICY IRON.

There's no hurry to settle the icy iron. We can easily keep Gandhi away from it.

 

[Cactus Pete]

The wb is for exploring the island(s) to the east. Wouldn't a better immediate use be to fog bust the icy-iron island and perhaps further to the SW?

I'd like to contact the French quickly. If circum won't be affected, what is the need for speed?
The French map might extend farther to the west. By the time we can sail to France though, Gandhi will probably already have circumnavigated. Yes. Maybe we should sail toward London. We need to establish a trade route with Churchill, and maybe our caravel will see a French unit on land. Church won't give us open borders, so are you suggesting we gift him our map in a few turns?

He's not going to start sailing settlers anywhere while there is plenty of good territory at home.

Repeating: Any idea if being frustrated on land might make him more likely to expand by sea?

Gandhi's workers will probably hook ivory next. Let them, and then look to steal both workers the turn after, on the northern ivory, or western silk, or Bombay's cows. Build a warrior in Moscow to cover the cow possibility. We should be able to pillage the southern ivory before G can build an elephant. Okay, consider that in the plan.

We need to fogbust our continent or barbs will start appearing. Use the explorer if need be. Fogbusting should come before building libraries. Concur.

Whip settlers in Moscow at Pop8 and in St. Pete at Pop10. First two settlers should grab horse and probably copper/crab/fur. Obviously Horse City is first, but thinking your white city next would be more strategic, giving G only a narrow corridor of expansion that we might better be able to defend. Intend to build culture immediately to expand. Interested to know why you suggested the more western site.

 

[Cactus Pete]

The iron city is problematic because settling it may prohibit us from building more warrior MP's. No hurry to settle this city, as we don't need to to thwart G. Just mentioned as part of the plan to settle next to the horses. We may be able to trade it away but I think this requires that the AI doesn't have iron of their own. Clever idea, though. (At least, never would have occurred to me.) Where we have maps, could tell if AI have iron.

I suggest that St. Pete build library+NE after work boat. Extremely reluctant to do this. Think thwarting G and the barbs will initially require units built in both cities. That leaves Moscow responsible of building warrior MP's and Elephants. Whip settlers in both cities.

For how many turns do you need to build the settlers when whipping at 8/10 pop?

Haven't gotten to that. If someone knows, please save me the time.

BTW, am I correct that caravels can't pillage nets in BtS? Also, anyone know under what conditions G's caravel would attack ours, given his agressive nature in this game?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Note that G will be able to use caravel to escort settler in galley anywhere he wants to go. Should this be a contingency that we just concede?

Based on Petersburg, don't we have to presume that Bombay's culture will expand in just 11 turns?

Proposed worker actions:

1&3,after ivory improved and roaded: 1 to forest W of ivory to chop; 3 to gold to mine and road

2&4 after iron mined: send both to forest 2SW of Moscow, then have one chop that forest while the other immediately moves to forest 3SW and chops -- that second chop should be completed 10 turns from now.

 

[ShannonCT]

Wouldn't a better immediate use be to fog bust the icy-iron island and perhaps further to the SW?

Maybe after checking out the eastern island, to see if it's worth fogbusting. Also, horse city will need a wb.

If circum won't be affected, what is the need for speed?

So we can get open borders and trades going sooner. After circumnavigation goes, we can gift our maps to everyone for diplo points, and then consider adopting religion.

Church won't give us open borders, so are you suggesting we gift him our map in a few turns?

Caravels don't need open borders.

Repeating: Any idea if being frustrated on land might make him more likely to expand by sea?

If he has no openings to settle on nearby land, he will probably move a settler by galley. We can let him settle the iron site to the north so he doesn't try to sail the settler.

Obviously Horse City is first, but thinking your white city next would be more strategic, giving G only a narrow corridor of expansion that we might better be able to defend. Intend to build culture immediately to expand. Interested to know why you suggested the more western site.

The white city would have no food resources so it's pretty marginal. Bombay's borders will expand in ~7 turns, so it won't have many tiles to work with.

Extremely reluctant to do this. Think thwarting G and the barbs will initially require units built in both cities.

Agree. REXing fast is more important than getting to Bio a few turns sooner.

Haven't gotten to that. If someone knows, please save me the time.

Cities can whip settlers after 1-2 turns.

BTW, am I correct that caravels can't pillage nets in BtS? Also, anyone know under what conditions G's caravel would attack ours, given his agressive nature in this game?

Aggressive AI doesn't mean they are more risky. It just makes them build more units. Gandhi is inherently risk averse in attacking, so sticking to the coast for the defensive bonus will make him unlikely to attack 1 to 1. If he has 2 ships in the area, watch out. And no, caravels can't pillage nets. They can sit on them though and prevent their use.

 

[ShannonCT]

Note that G will be able to use caravel to escort settler in galley anywhere he wants to go. Should this be a contingency that we just concede?

I don't usually see the AI using caravels as escorts, but there's not much we can do if he does.

Based on Petersburg, don't we have to presume that Bombay's culture will expand in just 11 turns?

Proposed worker actions:

1&3,after ivory improved and roaded: 1 to forest W of ivory to chop; 3 to gold to mine and road

2&4 after iron mined: send both to forest 2SW of Moscow, then have one chop that forest while the other immediately moves to forest 3SW and chops -- that second chop should be completed 10 turns from now.

Sistine Chapel gives +2 culture per specialist. So he's already got 10 extra culture at least. If he has hired an extra specialist it could be more. Bombay should expand in 7 turns max. So I don't think you can get to the forests SE of Bombay in time. Go for the one north of Bombay, and use three workers to be safe. Maybe our culture will get the SE forests back later.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Maybe after checking out the eastern island, to see if it's worth fogbusting. That will take multiople turns, and isn't that fogbusting much less important than the island where we want to eventually settle? Also, planning to delay completing the Moscow workboat a turn to complete a warrior and send toward the cows and eventually onward to fogbust. Also, horse city will need a wb. Noted

So we can get open borders and trades going sooner. After circumnavigation goes, we can gift our maps to everyone for diplo points, and then consider adopting religion. Sure would like to get the caravel west of Delphi to potentially monitor Delhi and deny him the clams and/or to help fogbust SW of the city. Do you feel strongly that this is a lesser priority (or can be delayed without much risk) than speeding the opening of trade routes or the slim chance of contacting a French unit?

Caravels don't need open borders. But trading does.

If he has no openings to settle on nearby land, he will probably move a settler by galley. We can let him settle the iron site to the north so he doesn't try to sail the settler. Might be the lesser of two evils, and less evil the further we are along in our own expansion. Thinking will try to deny iron city to G as long as can do so without jeopardizing thwarting of other expansion.

The white city would have no food resources so it's pretty marginal. No doubt it's a lousy city site, but its strategic advantage might be key to us successfully thwarting G or it might allow us to build fewer units and thereby develop key cities more quickly. Probably need to revisit this when second settler comes available. How damaging would conceding the site to G be?

Aggressive AI doesn't mean they are more risky. It just makes them build more units. Gandhi is inherently risk averse in attacking, so sticking to the coast for the defensive bonus will make him unlikely to attack 1 to 1. Will he attack at 50/50? If he has 2 ships in the area, watch out. Yes, concerned if his caravel comes home after circum and either his galley turns back east or he builds another ship. We might need to build one ourselves.And no, caravels can't pillage nets. They can sit on them though and prevent their use.

Understood.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I don't usually see the AI using caravels as escorts, but there's not much we can do if he does. We could build, or likely we'd need to whip, another caravel.

Sistine Chapel gives +2 culture per specialist. So he's already got 10 extra culture at least. If he has hired an extra specialist it could be more. Bombay should expand in 7 turns max. So I don't think you can get to the forests SE of Bombay in time. Go for the one north of Bombay, and use three workers to be safe. Maybe our culture will get the SE forests back later.

SC is in Delphi. Given 11 turns, looking for confirmation or better idea re worker actions. Hadn't even considered his employing an artist specialist or, for that matter, building culture in Bombay. Inclined to bet he won't, but interested in other opinions or experience with AI doing this.

 

[ShannonCT]

That will take multiople turns, and isn't that fogbusting much less important than the island where we want to eventually settle? Also, planning to delay completing the Moscow workboat a turn to complete a warrior and send toward the cows and eventually onward to fogbust.

We may want to settle both islands, but yes, the silver is something we definitely want to secure.

Sure would like to get the caravel west of Delphi to potentially monitor Delhi and deny him the clams and/or to help fogbust SW of the city. Do you feel strongly that this is a lesser priority (or can be delayed without much risk) than speeding the opening of trade routes or the slim chance of contacting a French unit?

The clams aren't even netted yet (I checked with the explorer). And if you leave the path to the north open, G should send his settler that way rather than try to sail him somewhere. I would say quick contact of French is quite important.

Delhi's borders will expand in a few turns. That will fogbust some of the coast to the west.

Caravels don't need open borders. But trading does.

We can get Churchill back to Cautious by gifting our map soon.

No doubt it's a lousy city site, but its strategic advantage might be key to us successfully thwarting G or it might allow us to build fewer units and thereby develop key cities more quickly. Probably need to revisit this when second settler comes available. How damaging would conceding the site to G be?

If we go for that site before the two more western sites, will still have to use units to deny his settlers. I don't see how the white city blocks him in.

Will he attack at 50/50?

Probably not since the caravel should have EXPLORE orders.

Yes, concerned if his caravel comes home after circum and either his galley turns back east or he builds another ship. We might need to build one ourselves.

If you see another ship, by the time you could build another caravel and move it, the war may be nearly over. Denying the clams is only marginally useful.

SC is in Delphi. Given 11 turns, looking for confirmation or better idea re worker actions. Hadn't even considered his employing an artist specialist or, for that matter, building culture in Bombay. Inclined to bet he won't, but interested in other opinions or experience with AI doing this.

Yes SC is in Delhi (not Delphi) but SC gives +2 culture to each specialist in every city. So expect to see Bombay border pop in no more than 7 turns. I think Bombay built culture for a couple turns when it was founded because its borders popped faster than St. Pete's.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Will try to get Horse City settled quickly and horses hooked up. Thinking that, especially if G has cat(s), a horse archer might be cost effective to build and then hook the iron and a knight.

Memory is fading regarding research. Is plan to continue researching at 0% until at least one library is built and then staying on PP, waiting for GE to bulb gunpowder?

Move explorer SW to fogbust, but keeping him close enough to protect lb it has to capture worker on silk, then will try to encourage an attack from cat while on forest, ideally with another of our units nearby to kill cat in unlikely event that lb loses. If explorer is badly injured, fogbust him while he heals. If he is not, then pair him with lb to pillage.

First warrior from SP moves to back up lb if it has to worker steal on ivory, ideally to capture second worker but at least to be able to keep stolen worker from capture after a counter attack by G on our lb.

Proposed city builds:

SP: workboat>warrior>warrior>warrior>?(will consider advanced unit, library,settler with chop, plus suggestions)

MOSCOW: warrior>workboat>WE>settler

 

[ShannonCT]

Will try to get Horse City settled quickly and horses hooked up. Thinking that, especially if G has cat(s), a horse archer might be cost effective to build and then hook the iron and a knight.

If you prebuild a HA, it will become a knight build when iron is hooked.

Memory is fading regarding research. Is plan to continue researching at 0% until at least one library is built and then staying on PP, waiting for GE to bulb gunpowder?

That sounds like a good plan.

Move explorer SW to fogbust, but keeping him close enough to protect lb it has to capture worker on silk, then will try to encourage an attack from cat while on forest, ideally with another of our units nearby to kill cat in unlikely event that lb loses. If explorer is badly injured, fogbust him while he heals. If he is not, then pair him with lb to pillage.

Remember cats can't kill.

First warrior from SP moves to back up lb if it has to worker steal on ivory, ideally to capture second worker but at least to be able to keep stolen worker from capture after a counter attack by G on our lb.

One unit can capture multiple workers on the same tile.

 

[Cactus Pete]

We may want to settle both islands, but yes, the silver is something we definitely want to secure.

The clams aren't even netted yet (I checked with the explorer). And if you leave the path to the north open, G should send his settler that way rather than try to sail him somewhere. I would say quick contact of French is quite important. I'm convinced. Are you in favor of heading toward England first and then, if no French unit is sited, sailing SW and then NW to France?

Delhi's borders will expand in a few turns. That will fogbust some of the coast to the west. Noted.

If we go for that site before the two more western sites, will still have to use units to deny his settlers. I don't see how the white city blocks him in. It's not that it literally blocks him. It's that he will not send a settler in a direction where there is no good place to settle. If we settle the copper site, he could still send a settler in any southerly direction, which would be harder to anticipate and therefore harder to defend against. With the white city settled, I think we can anticipate that G will send his settler through one of the five tiles now adjacent to Delhi's southern border, which a knight on the plains hill by the wheat could monitor and probably discourage. Given a copper city, the three tiles south of Bombay are also in play for a settler heading towards the furs. (Any reason to think he has fogbusted the fish and iron?)

Probably not since the caravel should have EXPLORE orders. Makes sense.

If you see another ship, by the time you could build another caravel and move it, the war may be nearly over. Denying the clams is only marginally useful. Okay.

Yes SC is in Delhi (not Delphi All them furain city names are Greek to me.) but SC gives +2 culture to each specialist in every city. So expect to see Bombay border pop in no more than 7 turns. Ah, yes. Slow on that. Thanks for your patience. I think Bombay built culture for a couple turns when it was founded because its borders popped faster than St. Pete's.

Not just a function of delaying SP for 2 turns?

Will revise worker actions accordingly.

 

[Cactus Pete]

If you prebuild a HA, it will become a knight build when iron is hooked. Noted. Might be able to take advantage of that. Still think a HA could be cost effective.

Remember cats can't kill. But, according to Fred, they will foolishly attack explorers on a forest. Just need to have a counter-attacking unit available.

One unit can capture multiple workers on the same tile.

Really? Know that has not always been the case. Is it just for BtS, or was the change made years ago and I've remained ignorant?

 

[ShannonCT]

I'm convinced. Are you in favor of heading toward England first and then, if no French unit is sited, sailing SW and then NW to France?

I guess just beeline to France. We could just as likely meet a French unit on one of those peninsulas.

It's not that it literally blocks him. It's that he will not send a settler in a direction where there is no good place to settle. If we settle the copper site, he could still send a settler in any southerly direction, which would be harder to anticipate and therefore harder to defend against. With the white city settled, I think we can anticipate that G will send his settler through one of the five tiles now adjacent to Delhi's southern border, which a knight on the plains hill by the wheat could monitor and probably discourage. Given a copper city, the three tiles south of Bombay are also in play for a settler heading towards the furs. (Any reason to think he has fogbusted the fish and iron?)

I don't know that the white city is worth the fight. The copper/fur city is pretty strong and I'd like to get it developed sooner rather than later.

Not just a function of delaying SP for 2 turns?

No, St. Pete was founded earlier than Bombay.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Revised worker actions:

Workers 1&3 finish improving and roading the ivory, then move W onto the forest and chop it. (That will complete in 6 turns. Reluctant to bring in another worker. SCT, how big a risk do you think a 6-turns-to-chop would run?)

Workers 2&4 mine iron, then one moves to mine and road gold while the other chops and roads forest SW of Moscow.

 

[ShannonCT]

Really? Know that has not always been the case. Is it just for BtS, or was the change made years ago and I've remained ignorant?

I think it has always been this way. I remember in GOTM10 (my first victory on Immortal when I had never won a game above Monarch) I stole two workers in one shot. I think it couldn't be otherwise, since your unit has to occupy the tile where the worker was.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I guess just beeline to France. We could just as likely meet a French unit on one of those peninsulas. Okay, caravel will peruse the peninsula coasts in route to France.

I don't know that the white city is worth the fight. The copper/fur city is pretty strong and I'd like to get it developed sooner rather than later. Don't hold a strong opinion on this, so that is the plan unless further discussion is initiated.

No, St. Pete was founded earlier than Bombay.

Then please respond to query in earlier post re 6-turn chop.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I think it has always been this way. I remember in GOTM10 (my first victory on Immortal when I had never won a game above Monarch) I stole two workers in one shot. I think it couldn't be otherwise, since your unit has to occupy the tile where the worker was.

Attacking unit used to remain on tile where he attacked from and single worker would join him there. Got a feeling that may have been back in CIVII. Wonder if leif remembers?

RL confronts me. I will monitor thread as time permits and hope to post a plan adjusted for intervening discusion Monday night.

 

[ShannonCT]

Then please respond to query in earlier post re 6-turn chop.

Assume Bombay got an extra 10 culture in its first few turns and 10 extra culture from 5 turns of Sistine. It would have 105 culture now. 6 more turns at 7 culture per turn would give it 147. So it might be ok to chop with 2 workers. However, I'm looking back at the 1380AD and 1385AD saves and it seems that Bombay is working only 2 tiles at Pop4. If he was running scientists for several turns, he may have 8-16 extra culture and only be 5-6 turns from popping borders.

Edit: Looking at the culture graph, I guess he ran 2 scientists for 4 turns, giving him 16 extra culture.

 

[leif erikson]

Attacking unit used to remain on tile where he attacked from and single worker would join him there. Got a feeling that may have been back in CIVII. Wonder if leif remembers?

Played a lot of the original Civ.
Wasn't a big Civ II fan but I think it may have worked as you describe. Gettin' kind of old and the memory fades a bit. Still got the disks, but not too much desire to load them up.
In both Civ III and Civ IV, if you win the tile, you get whatever is in it.

Great working discussion. Seems like an awful lot to get done, but I'm sure you'll manage it.

I'm getting a bit concerned about the length of time we are staying in zero research. I understand that waiting for a Library benefits us, but it is getting to be a rather long interval. Especially as we are preparing for war. I'm hoping an AI will research PP so that we can trade for it before we need it for Scientific Method. Then it becomes a non-issue.

EDIT - Murky's score fell off a bit. Looks like they lost some tiles to Bombay, perhaps?
Also, their culture is heading up, must have gotten their Library built early?