SGOTM 10 - Xteam

I think Fred's point was that if we built the city north of Delhi, then we could probably get peace with G and still found the other cities. Not sure I'm particular either way atm.

Trying to get a feel for how many more Settlers we want in the REX phase to think about a good time to change to Caste. It is probably too early now, but asking anyway... :)

Didn't think we'd concluded that two cities south of Bombay was out, and wouldn't even one of them be better done while still at war?
Yes, I guess I'm asking more than saying... :mischief:

We can run two scientists here now without Caste.
Yes, and we should once the second GE pops.

Also, shouldn't we change research to Gunpowder as the GE doesn't bulb all of the tech?
 
In my opinion the cities we should definitely settle are iron/cow, fish city and the ice island city.

I have serious doubts regarding settling any cities south of Bombay since they have no resources and they are also under cultural pressure.

There are a couple of possible sites on nearby islands: The sheep island to the west and a single tile island to the east with two fish resources. None of them are fantastic but we may consider settling.

Finally we may find more islands both to the east and the west. What we would really like is some grassland with at least one strong food tile.

If we agree not to settle south we have the option of making peace as soon as the iron/cow city is settled because Gandhi will likely go for the wheat with his first settler and that gives us time to settle the fish city. However, if Gandhi is not threatening anything we may as well continue the war until he finally decides to go for our fishing nets or our cities.

We can safely gift the iron because Gandhi can't possibly cook up a land invasion before our settler has reached the iron/cow spot. Thus we have no use for more knights or any other metal based unit.

I think St. Pete should be MM'ed for hammers so that we get the NE ASAP. We need both the culture and the GP points. Caste must wait until we are done building settlers.
 
Cactus Pete said:
Let's play this as it goes. Be nice, but hardly critical, to capture G's new worker (he was mighty careless with the last one), and the knight would have the best chance of doing that.


Do you have any suggestions for how we could lure the Indian worker into the open?
 
Do you have any suggestions for how we could lure the Indian worker into the open?
Last time a worker was sent out without escort, but I'd anticipate he'll be accompanied by two lb's this time, so we might be able to wait until he works a plain or grassland and have 3 units available to attack. This could happen just after he chops a forest, for instance.
 
Last time a worker was sent out without escort, but I'd anticipate he'll be accompanied by two lb's this time, so we might be able to wait until he works a plain or grassland and have 3 units available to attack. This could happen just after he chops a forest, for instance.
Any idea which way he might send him? Has he been chopping somewhere in particular before now. The AI seems pretty stubborn in its choices... ;)
 
Any idea which way he might send him? Has he been chopping somewhere in particular before now. The AI seems pretty stubborn in its choices... ;)
No. I've positioned our forces centrally precisely because I can't predict AI behavior very well, and, since chopping is what I'd predict he won't do, that remains a possibility. The only trend, and it's weak, is to road a tile next to the city the worker exits from. He might, then, road the cow and then pasture it. If so, that will give us five or six turns to get into position to attack (and we would need all units to attack adjacent to Delhi with its excess of lb's). That might mean accompanying our settler with the lb in Moscow.
 
I have observed in my games that once the AI builds a few units, chances of worker steals drop dramatically. I've seen workers accompanied by three or four units after a while. I think if Gandhi has a couple of units around he doesn't have city defense jobs for, his workers will be well covered in the future!
 
I'm leaning towards settling also the single tile island at some point because it can be used as a secondary GP farm. With two fish tiles it should be able to support 5 scientists. Using Caste and Pacifism it will produce 5*3*2=30 GPP per turn. This should be enough to produce a GS at some point thus taking some of the load off St. Pete.
 
I was sort of waiting to hear from SCT. Hope he is OK.

Here is a rough plan for comments for the next turn set:

Research:
A Great Engineer is due in two turns and will be used to bulb Gunpowder. He will make up 1557 beakers of the 1814 needed. At 100% research, currently providing 83 Beakers per turn, we would need three turns to achieve Gunpowder, so we could switch to it now for the two turns waiting for the GE and then have it next turn.

Once we have Gunpowder, switch back to Printing Press. And continue research at 100%.

Civics:
With the coming of the Great Engineer in Moscow, we change to Pacifism.
At what point do we want to change to Caste? Perhaps we should wait and see how many cities we decide to build?

Great People:
Do we contaminate the gene pool in St. Pete to include a Scientist to speed the, hopefully, Engineer?
Once we complete National Epic, the gene pool gets contaminated with an Artist.

Cities:
Moscow – change build to a Work Boat., then another Settler. Would it be worth considering a Barracks and then Heroic Epic here?
St. Petersburg – complete Settler and then National Epic.
Horse City – change production to Wealth until pop 4, back to Worker and pop-rush it.
Novgorod – culture for 3-turns then a LB.
Orange City – continues Caravel.

Priority of founding cities:
1. North of Delhi, 1-tile north of Iron.
2. NW of St. Pete, on the Grass Hill 2-tiles north of Crab.
3. Ice City, 1-tile SE of Iron.
Unclear if this should be the plan? Would like to discuss this more, along with city sites south of Delhi and Bombay, as well as sites on islands to the east.
EDIT - I think this ties in with the timing of when we change to Caste as we will no longer be able to pop-rush Settlers and Workers.

Worker actions:
Worker4, south of Bombay, heads for the new city north of Delhi to Pasture the Cows and then mine the Iron.
Moscow area – send a Worker from Horse City to build a Water Mill on the plains tile west of the city and then a Windmill on the Desert Hill. (CP wanted a farm on the Plains tile, reasoning?)
St. Petersburg – build roads on the forests in preparation of getting to Scientific Method to build Forest Preserves.
Horse City – Mine the Grass Hill and then build Workshops on the grass tiles.
Orange City – cut forest NW of the city, build a Camp on the Fur tile east of the city and then begin building Water Mills on the grass tiles along the river and Workshops on the grass tiles away from the river.
Novgorod – pasture the Cow tile once the borders expand, then build Windmills on the Plains and Grass Hills and then Workshops on grass tiles.

Unit orders.
Land the LB off of the Galley onto the Silver Hill south of the mountain tile.
Use the Knight to cover the Settler headed for the area north of Delhi.
LB in Moscow heads for the new city site north of Delhi, accompanying the Worker part of the way.
Our Caravel remains in the St. Pete area to protect the nets there.

Trades.
Mao has Gunpowder already, but no chance for a trade.
Trade for Maps with Mao, De Gaulle and Roosevelt, they cost 5-gold each.
Once we have both Fur hooked, we can look for further resource trades.
Watch for other techs coming onto the market.
 
I was sort of waiting to hear from SCT. No hurry. We're ahead of most, if not all, of the other teams. Hope he is OK. Indeed.

Here is a rough plan for comments for the next turn set:

Research:
A Great Engineer is due in two turns and will be used to bulb Gunpowder. Unless we're going to research Chemistry next, why not hold off on bulbing. We might get lucky and have other civs research Gunpowder.
Once we have Gunpowder, switch back to Printing Press. And continue research at 100%.

Civics:
With the coming of the Great Engineer in Moscow, we change to Pacifism.
At what point do we want to change to Caste? Perhaps we should wait and see how many cities we decide to build? Yes, and that may include some exporation time.

Great People:
Do we contaminate the gene pool in St. Pete to include a Scientist to speed the, hopefully, Engineer? Once we complete National Epic, the gene pool gets contaminated with an Artist. Once we complete NE, the tripling of GP production rate (as opposed to just doubling) may tip the balance in favor of slowing settler production in favor of GP production. Until we have NE, suggest we don't run scientist(s). Forgotten the relevant discussion . . . Isn't a GS pretty valuable to us at this stage?

Cities:
Moscow – change build to a Work Boat. Not sure I agree with this. We can't keep the Indain caravel from negating the growth benefits of at least one of our nets without another ship, and if G brings his galley into play (which admittedly seems a bit unlikely at this late date), we would probably have to accept peace. Moreover, we will have later use for a galley, perhaps upgraded to a galleon, to explore and/or transport settler(s) and eventually to transport troops. If we don't build a galley in Moscow, then we might choose to immediately risk our caravel in a fight with G's. I think G's will attack if we defend a net with it. Alternatively, we could concede the loss of food production and send the caravel to either Delhi's harbor or to explore. , then another Settler. Would it be worth considering a Barracks and then Heroic Epic here? Whether we build HE in Moscow or not, it will have some hammers for unit production and eventually 2 forests to chop, so a barracks makes sense.
St. Petersburg – complete Settler and then National Epic.
Horse City – change production to Wealth until pop 4, back to Worker and pop-rush it.
Novgorod – culture for 3-turns then a LB. Let's wait the three turns to decide if we need such an expensive MP.
Orange City – continues Caravel.

Priority of founding cities:
1. North of Delhi, 1-tile north of Iron.
2. NW of St. Pete, on the Grass Hill 2-tiles north of Crab.
3. Ice City, 1-tile SE of Iron. That site does not put the furs in the fat cross and should only be used in conjunction with a city 2W of the beavers, (which still has merit).

Worker actions:
Worker4, south of Bombay, heads for the new city north of Delhi to Pasture the Cows and then mine the Iron. Cows need to be pastured quickly. Suggest sending the worker now on the OC mine to the cows as soon as mine is completed.
Moscow area – send a Worker from Horse City to build a Water Mill on the plains tile west of the city and then a Windmill on the Desert Hill. (CP wanted a farm on the Plains tile, reasoning? Moscow has the potential to grow large fast once we stop whipping settlers. Putting citizens on a desert windmill and 2 grassland workshops will slow growth down. Think we ought to counter that a bit with a farm on the plains (which we can alter later). )
St. Petersburg – build roads on the forests in preparation of getting to Scientific Method to build Forest Preserves. Needs to be done, but don't see it as work for the next turn set.
Horse City – Mine the Grass Hill and then build Workshops on the grass tiles. The grassland WSW of HC could be farmed eventually, if we end up settling 2W of the beaver, and that extra food will be needed to work all the rest of the city's potential hammer tiles.
Orange City – cut forest NW of the city, build a Camp on the Fur tile east of the city and then begin building Water Mills on the grass tiles along the river and Workshops on the grass tiles away from the river. Same kind of situation here: need to farm for growth to quickly generate enough citizens to take advantage of the hammer (and fur/gold) tiles potentially available.
Novgorod – pasture the Cow tile once the borders expand, then build Windmills on the Plains and Grass Hills and then Workshops on grass tiles. Same logic: once you have farmed an OC grassland, you can farm one in N. BTW, aren't we going to get Biology before Replaceable Parts?

Unit orders.
Land the LB off of the Galley onto the Silver Hill south of the mountain tile. Object to this. We learn a great deal about the island at little risk if you unload him on the hill ESE of the galley.
Use the Knight to cover the Settler headed for the area north of Delhi. Let's see where the Indian worker goes before committing our knight.
LB in Moscow heads for the new city site north of Delhi, accompanying the Worker part of the way.
Our Caravel remains in the St. Pete area to protect the nets there. Don't think G will let him protect the nets, but will attack if able.

Trades.
Mao has Gunpowder already, but no chance for a trade.
Trade for Maps with Mao, De Gaulle and Roosevelt, they cost 5-gold each.
Once we have both Fur hooked, we can look for further resource trades.
Watch for other techs coming onto the market.
Watch for unwanted science specialist.
 
I was sort of waiting to hear from SCT. Hope he is OK.

Yes, such a silence is unusual. Hopefully all is well.

Research:
A Great Engineer is due in two turns and will be used to bulb Gunpowder. He will make up 1557 beakers of the 1814 needed. At 100% research, currently providing 83 Beakers per turn, we would need three turns to achieve Gunpowder, so we could switch to it now for the two turns waiting for the GE and then have it next turn.

Once we have Gunpowder, switch back to Printing Press. And continue research at 100%.

Pressing reasons to bulb now might be using Gunpowder to trade for other techs, going on to research Chemistry, wanting our power to increase from the simple fact of having the gunpowder tech, or wanting to use muskets. If none of these four is true, then we could wait to bulb to see who gets it and maybe get a few more beakers from the engineer later.

On the other hand, gunpowder is highly valued by the AI and trading for it may be expensive, and what would we give for it in any case?

I'd be inclined to just bulb now, but then others here could also beat me at this game...

Civics:
With the coming of the Great Engineer in Moscow, we change to Pacifism.
At what point do we want to change to Caste? Perhaps we should wait and see how many cities we decide to build?

Does changing both civics at once save us a turn of anarchy? If so that's something in favour of doing both at once.

I missed the implications of the number of cities for caste system. How does this effect when we swap to caste? Is it the building of settlers you are referring to?

Trades.
Mao has Gunpowder already, but no chance for a trade.
Trade for Maps with Mao, De Gaulle and Roosevelt, they cost 5-gold each.
Once we have both Fur hooked, we can look for further resource trades.
Watch for other techs coming onto the market.

Yes, yes, yes.
 
leif erikson said:
Civics:
With the coming of the Great Engineer in Moscow, we change to Pacifism.
At what point do we want to change to Caste? Perhaps we should wait and see how many cities we decide to build? Agree, we need Slavery for building the settlers efficiently

Great People:
Do we contaminate the gene pool in St. Pete to include a Scientist to speed the, hopefully, Engineer?
Once we complete National Epic, the gene pool gets contaminated with an Artist.

I think we can start hiring scientists once the 1st GE is born in Moscow. Make sure that St. Pete is working all resource tiles (3 seafood, iron and ivory) before hiring specialists. We don't want to reduce food/hammers too much

Cities:
Moscow – change build to a Work Boat., then another Settler. Would it be worth considering a Barracks and then Heroic Epic here? We can't build the HE I think (Need a level 4 unit) and the barracks is of little immediate use because the war should be over soon
St. Petersburg – complete Settler and then National Epic.
Horse City – change production to Wealth until pop 4, back to Worker and pop-rush it. Or work boat. the next 4 cities (including the one tile island) require 7 work boats in total so we might as well get busy building some
Novgorod – culture for 3-turns then a LB. Gift the iron and build a warrior instead. Saves some valuable hammers
Orange City – continues Caravel.

Priority of founding cities:
1. North of Delhi, 1-tile north of Iron.
2. NW of St. Pete, on the Grass Hill 2-tiles north of Crab.
3. Ice City, 1-tile SE of Iron. Settle on top of iron to grab both sea food
Unclear if this should be the plan? Would like to discuss this more, along with city sites south of Delhi and Bombay, as well as sites on islands to the east.
I think we have to forget about these sites because they have no immediate value and we can only get them by prolonging the war. I would rather go for a faster peace so that we can avoid building more military units (except warrior MP's) and can prevent any damage to our current or future fishing nets
EDIT - I think this ties in with the timing of when we change to Caste as we will no longer be able to pop-rush Settlers and Workers. Yes, settling those southern cities will delay the switch to Caste and I don't think we can afford this.

Worker actions:
Worker4, south of Bombay, heads for the new city north of Delhi to Pasture the Cows and then mine the Iron.
Moscow area – send a Worker from Horse City to build a Water Mill on the plains tile west of the city and then a Windmill on the Desert Hill. (CP wanted a farm on the Plains tile, reasoning?)
St. Petersburg – build roads on the forests in preparation of getting to Scientific Method to build Forest Preserves. This is good to have in mind if the workers run out of more important chores. Right now, I suspect that they have plenty to do improving tiles in our cities.
Horse City – Mine the Grass Hill and then build Workshops on the grass tiles.
Orange City – cut forest NW of the city, build a Camp on the Fur tile east of the city and then begin building Water Mills on the grass tiles along the river and Workshops on the grass tiles away from the river.
Novgorod – pasture the Cow tile once the borders expand, then build Windmills on the Plains and Grass Hills and then Workshops on grass tiles.

Unit orders.
Land the LB off of the Galley onto the Silver Hill south of the mountain tile.
Use the Knight to cover the Settler headed for the area north of Delhi. Perhaps just use the Knight to fog bust part of the way
LB in Moscow heads for the new city site north of Delhi, accompanying the Worker part of the way. Why not use the longbow outside Delhi?
Our Caravel remains in the St. Pete area to protect the nets there.

Trades.
Mao has Gunpowder already, but no chance for a trade.
Trade for Maps with Mao, De Gaulle and Roosevelt, they cost 5-gold each. I think these maps are close to worthless - better sell our map to them
Once we have both Fur hooked, we can look for further resource trades.
Watch for other techs coming onto the market.

Cactus Pete said:
Not sure I agree with this. We can't keep the Indain caravel from negating the growth benefits of at least one of our nets without another ship, and if G brings his galley into play (which admittedly seems a bit unlikely at this late date), we would probably have to accept peace. Moreover, we will have later use for a galley, perhaps upgraded to a galleon, to explore and/or transport settler(s) and eventually to transport troops. If we don't build a galley in Moscow, then we might choose to immediately risk our caravel in a fight with G's. I think G's will attack if we defend a net with it. Alternatively, we could concede the loss of food production and send the caravel to either Delhi's harbor or to explore.

I think accepting peace is not a problem provided that we have settled the iron/cow spot. Instead of building more military units (including galleys) we can focus on the peaceful development of our cities. We can't defend efficiently against Gandhi's promoted caravel and if he starts moving a stack against our cities we could also find ourselves in a position where we have to build additional units thus delaying work boats and other stuff we need in order to develop. Building a work boat in Moscow should have a nice timing with settling the iron/cow city and expanding it's border to include the sea food.
 
I think accepting peace is not a problem provided that we have settled the iron/cow spot.

Yes. Though this necessarily means war for several more turns while the settler makes its way to the spot...

Instead of building more military units (including galleys) we can focus on the peaceful development of our cities. We can't defend efficiently against Gandhi's promoted caravel and if he starts moving a stack against our cities we could also find ourselves in a position where we have to build additional units thus delaying work boats and other stuff we need in order to develop.

Yes. The war supposed to slow down Gandhi without slowing us down too. ;)

Agree, we need Slavery for building the settlers efficiently

Yes, two seconds thought after my last post answered my question for me in this way!

3. Ice City, 1-tile SE of Iron. Settle on top of iron to grab both sea food

1 tile SE of the iron will get both fish already, along with th iron and two silver in the fat cross. On the iron will miss the second silver out of the fat cross. It's a pity we can't get the crabs that are down the south in the same fat cross as the two fish - that would allow us to use both silver and the iron as well eventually... I'll settle for the two fish, two silver and iron though.

I think we have to forget about these sites because they have no immediate value and we can only get them by prolonging the war. I would rather go for a faster peace so that we can avoid building more military units (except warrior MP's) and can prevent any damage to our current or future fishing nets

I'm keen to get to Caste System, but how many turns would it delay Caste to get one more settler out? We're going to have to continue war several more turn to get the cow/iron settler through Indian territory (escorted by the knight I presume). Can we get another settler whipped in that time? Then get peace and go to Caste...? I got a little lost in the tech discussions a while back, but what I understand is that delaying caste slows the accumulation of GPP's and faster teching from the GS's (ouch - I just noticed Christianity has not spread!! That hurts the GPP side a little). So what is the pay off? Settle one more city after the cow/iron gains what and costs what?

We can do both the cities NW of St. Pete and the ice city without open borders with Gandhi - it's just getting the cow/iron settler through Indian territory that requires the access through Indian territory. So the question becomes how many turns do we need to hang onto slavery to whip two settlers? What is the GPP/beaker cost? Will settling those cities earlier pay that cost? I'm not real good at such calculations!
 
Mad Professor said:
Yes. Though this necessarily means war for several more turns while the settler makes its way to the spot...

5 turns to be exact. It's very limited what Gandhi can do within 5 turns. He certainly can't do any pillaging.


Mad Professor said:
1 tile SE of the iron will get both fish already, along with th iron and two silver in the fat cross. On the iron will miss the second silver out of the fat cross. It's a pity we can't get the crabs that are down the south in the same fat cross as the two fish - that would allow us to use both silver and the iron as well eventually... I'll settle for the two fish, two silver and iron though.

Yes, I apparently didn't remember correctly the placement of the fish. So moving 1S of iron we only loose one fur? And gain both iron and silver?

Mad Professor said:
I'm keen to get to Caste System, but how many turns would it delay Caste to get one more settler out?

We need more than just one more settler as far as I remember. We have 3 cities planned in leifs draft and possibly one or two more if we decide to settle one tile island and sheep island.
 
Yes, I apparently didn't remember correctly the placement of the fish. So moving 1S of iron we only loose one fur? And gain both iron and silver?

1S of the iron still gets the fur in the fat cross AND both silvers. Perhaps a better spot except for the greater overlap with HC. 1SE of the iron misses the fur in the fat cross but has less overlap. I'll put a screenie in below in case you're not at a computer with the save handy

Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

Edit: Hang on - 1S of the iron misses one of the fish, so going 1 SE of the iron is better because it gets both fish
 
"3. Ice City, 1-tile SE of Iron. Settle on top of iron to grab both sea food
Unclear if this should be the plan? Would like to discuss this more, along with city sites south of Delhi and Bombay, as well as sites on islands to the east.
I think we have to forget about these sites because they have no immediate value and we can only get them by prolonging the war. I would rather go for a faster peace so that we can avoid building more military units (except warrior MP's) and can prevent any damage to our current or future fishing nets If we want to risk our caravel by letting G's attack it on a coastal tile, then we might have the option of prolonging the war without building more units for some time. That is, if our caravel prevails. If it does, then consider that it's reasonably likely we'll be able to kill off two of G's longbows while capturing a worker. That would probably give us the option to settle south without building more units, and we could know about the caravel in one turn. Not advocating this so much as thinking it deserves consideration.
EDIT - I think this ties in with the timing of when we change to Caste as we will no longer be able to pop-rush Settlers and Workers. Yes, settling those southern cities will delay the switch to Caste and I don't think we can afford this." Running more than two scientists before NP doesn't on its face look to be a great advantage. Seems a question of whether additional city(s) is worth more in the long run than quicker GP in the shorter term.
 
Mad Professor said:
Edit: Hang on - 1S of the iron misses one of the fish, so going 1 SE of the iron is better because it gets both fish

Makes sense. I remembered that we had to settle on the iron to get both fish and both fur. I guess we should settle on top of the iron then to be able to work two fish, two fur and silver in this city. Overlap with HC is not that problematic because we probably don't want to work a lot of water tiles when we get Representation.

Cactus Pete said:
If we want to risk our caravel by letting G's attack it on a coastal tile, then we might have the option of prolonging the war without building more units for some time. That is, if our caravel prevails. If it does, then consider that it's reasonably likely we'll be able to kill off two of G's longbows while capturing a worker. That would probably give us the option to settle south without building more units, and we could know about the caravel in one turn. Not advocating this so much as thinking it deserves consideration.

Agree that a lot depends on how Gandhi behaves and what we may find in the fog to the east. Suggest that our galley goes east to scout for vacant land. We could revisit the issue of extending the war when we have settled the iron/cow city.

Cactus Pete said:
Running more than two scientists before NP doesn't on its face look to be a great advantage. Seems a question of whether additional city(s) is worth more in the long run than quicker GP in the shorter term.

We can switch to Pacifism in two turns and already then we can gain quite a lot of GPP by changing to Caste. It's very hard to evaluate the balance between founding more cities and faster research from bulbing. We should remember though, that we have already delayed Biology somewhat compared to our test games by delaying pacifism and NE. I'm not even sure if the single tile island and sheep island are worth settling. Would be nice to know if the sheep island has a sea food resource to the west.

Another issue for discussion. I read somewhere that when a city expands the inner tiles receive extra free culture. E.g when a city expands first time the inner 3x3 tiles receive 20 :culture: per turn in addition to the whatever culture the city produces. When it expands again the inner 3x3 receive 40 :culture: per turn as a bonus and the rest of the FC receives 20 :culture: per turn. We could use this mechanism to challenge Bombay's culture inside the FC of Moscow by building culture for 3 turns. We should then get 2nd expansion in 4 turns and would start generating 24 :culture: per turn in the FC.
 
Makes sense. I remembered that we had to settle on the iron to get both fish and both fur. I guess we should settle on top of the iron then to be able to work two fish, two fur and silver in this city. Overlap with HC is not that problematic because we probably don't want to work a lot of water tiles when we get Representation.
Curious why we would want to settle on the Iron? We have two Fur tiles in Orange City and we can claim the other two if we wish to build a city 2-tiles west of the northern Fur.

By building the city on the Iron, we sacrifice +3 hammers per turn (plus multipliers later). As we cannot build Workshops on ice, as far as I know, the city will have less hammers available. We get +2 hammers from each Silver Hill, and we would get +1 hammer each from the two Fur tiles. So, I guess the loss is only +1 hammer per turn? :hmm:

Plus with two silver resources, we can trade as needed to help relations?

Not too sure I like the one-tile island. The eastern Fish is too close to Roosie, and if he claims it, the city won't fair too well?

I'm thinking we want 4-more cities:
1. North of Delhi.
2. NW of St. Pete.
3. Ice City.
4. Fur city, 2-tiles west of the northern Fur tile. This is if we place the Ice City SE of the Iron.


Agree that a lot depends on how Gandhi behaves and what we may find in the fog to the east. Suggest that our galley goes east to scout for vacant land. We could revisit the issue of extending the war when we have settled the iron/cow city.
Perhaps when I begin, this would be the first stopping point, founding that city.

We can switch to Pacifism in two turns and already then we can gain quite a lot of GPP by changing to Caste. It's very hard to evaluate the balance between founding more cities and faster research from bulbing. We should remember though, that we have already delayed Biology somewhat compared to our test games by delaying pacifism and NE. I'm not even sure if the single tile island and sheep island are worth settling. Would be nice to know if the sheep island has a sea food resource to the west.
Are you advocating switching to Caste at the same time as Pacifism? :confused:

Another issue for discussion. I read somewhere that when a city expands the inner tiles receive extra free culture. E.g when a city expands first time the inner 3x3 tiles receive 20 :culture: per turn in addition to the whatever culture the city produces. When it expands again the inner 3x3 receive 40 :culture: per turn as a bonus and the rest of the FC receives 20 :culture: per turn. We could use this mechanism to challenge Bombay's culture inside the FC of Moscow by building culture for 3 turns. We should then get 2nd expansion in 4 turns and would start generating 24 :culture: per turn in the FC.
I think it is worth a try in Moscow. Be nice to have that grass hill back again. :)
 
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