SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Mitchum]

OK, here is the save. I didn't mess around with changing Louise to Zara (actually, I'm not sure how to do it). The tiles should be correct and the warrior is in place complete with hidden lions and a bear which may or may not be in the exact right place...

If you find a mistake, let me know and I'll fix it.

Note to Dhoomstriker: If I put carnivorous trees where there should be vegitarian trees, you're just going to have to live with it...

I noticed the total lack of happiness resources on the peninsula. Other than the silver, we're going to have to find happiness eastward... or within (thank you for four religions).

 

[unclethrill]

T18 Work two corns till grow, Set Espionage to 1 to Zara
T20 Delhi grows to 3, 1 turn left on warrior, Work 2 H + 1 food for 1 hammer overflow
T21 Finish warrior
Move NW (forest)-> NE(hill)-> N(hill) -> see what is up there (resources/settle locations)
T30 Get Agri and Start Masonry
T34 Borders should expand to include Silver.
T36 Finish Worker. Start Corn Farming to the North, Finish TS so that we can decide what to build next.




When safe bring warrior 1 back to explore south. He will be back in time to explore the southern coast to see what we have for settling well before we have a settler.


I think that the exploring warrior for 15 turns is more important than 1 more worker turn.

 

[BLubmuz]

Move NW (forest)-> NW(hill)-> N(hill) -> see what is up there (resources/settle locations)

I think that the exploring warrior for 15 turns is more important than 1 more worker turn.

We can delay to explore W, since with Zara E we need to block him.

I agree it's far better to have the warrior out than a worker 1 turn earlier.

We're bounded to settle the silver city, but otherwise i'd say "let's settle anywhere E" to block that guy.

We need to know what there's South to verify if the Silver city will go W of silver or E or else.

Since we grow to 3 before start the worker, i think we can go for settler after it.
Without the wheel a 2nd worker won't have much to do.
If we can grow to 4 fast enough, we can probably build a warrior before, but not a worker.

Tests needed, but mainly unfog the actual map is needed.

 

[unclethrill]

We can delay to explore W, since with Zara E we need to block him.

I agree it's far better to have the warrior out than a worker 1 turn earlier.

We're bounded to settle the silver city, but otherwise i'd say "let's settle anywhere E" to block that guy.

We need to know what there's South to verify if the Silver city will go W of silver or E or else.

Since we grow to 3 before start the worker, i think we can go for settler after it.
Without the wheel a 2nd worker won't have much to do.
If we can grow to 4 fast enough, we can probably build a warrior before, but not a worker.

Tests needed, but mainly unfog the actual map is needed.

I agree. I meant to say NE-> N on the warrior movement. The first warrior will head south to discover that area.


So do I have to wait 24 hours from when I posted the updated PPP with warrior movement or since no one seems to be commenting on the update, can I play tonight (in about 4 or 5 hours)? Or should I hold up for 3 or 4 days while we see what the difference 1 worker turn will make of the course of the next 100 turns or so?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Just so that you know, I'm running some mini-tests right now.

I'm also preparing a fog-busting screenshot, so you guys can better visualize what I mean by these 5x5 diametre fog-busting areas. Stay tuned...

 

[Mitchum]

I played a quick test game. I completed the warrior before starting the worker. Warrior #1 fogbusted NW. Warrior #2 explored the silver area and then fog busted west. I never saw a single barb to the west of our capital with these two fog busters. Warrior #3 scouted east.

Oracle T93.

Off to church...

 

[BLubmuz]

I agree. I meant to say NE-> N on the warrior movement. The first warrior will head south to discover that area.

So do I have to wait 24 hours from when I posted the updated PPP with warrior movement or since no one seems to be commenting on the update, can I play tonight (in about 4 or 5 hours)? Or should I hold up for 3 or 4 days while we see what the difference 1 worker turn will make of the course of the next 100 turns or so?

I suspected a typo, but you never know...
No, i don't think so. We decided to stop your TS once the worker is completed to know more of the land before start discuss.
I think you can go. In case i've seen Dhoom around, so he can complain, in case.

I played a quick test game. I completed the warrior before starting the warrior.
...
Off to church...

Ask the priest to bless you.

 

[unclethrill]

Okay just to be clear. Unless someone posts a STOP message, I will play in the next 3-4 hours andd stop when the worker is done. I will be sure to checkout Dhoom's mini tests before I play if he posts results.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

The Results: Scenario B is the clear winner (Grow to Size 3 then start on Worker 1 immediately)

The cost per turn of delaying the completion of the Worker
Each turn from now on that we delay in producing the Worker, we lose the following:
1 turn of worked Corn for 3 Food, 1 turn of worked Silver for 1 Hammer + 4 Commerce, and 1 turn of worked Mined Plains Hills River square for 2 Hammers

Thus, each turn that we delay building the Worker costs us:
3 Food, 3 Hammers, and 4 Commerce

After those improvements are made, our Workers won't have much to do, which is the only reason why the lost amount per turn isn't considerably higher. It is possible that we actually lose 1 MORE Food per turn delayed, if we can Irrigate the Grassland River square, but I am not COUNTING on being able to do so. A Forest might grow there, so it's not fair to count it.

After those squares, though, there won't be any useful improvements to make (we can Mine a random Hills square or Irrigate a random River square... perhaps just put our Workers in the "ideal places" or whatever... but no further impacts will occur on our cities' outputs, until Bronze Working comes in).


Testing Fairness
Now, I tried to be fair in the testing.

I tried to get maximum overflow into the Worker in the "Warrior first" test path. Unfortunately, even with maximum Hammer overflow (i.e. 0 Food in the bank at Size 3, with as many overflow Hammers into the Worker as possible), neither the Worker nor the next Settler comes out any faster, nor do the following two units, whether they are Worker 2 -> Settler 3 or Settler 3 -> Worker 2.

Spoiler How I tried to get maximum overflow into the Worker :

T18 Size 2 = Corn + Corn, still building the Warrior, Food Box = 28/36 + 4 Food at the end of this turn, Hammers box = 18/22 + 1 Hammer at the end of this turn
T19 Size 2 = Corn + Corn, still building the Warrior, Food Box = 32/36 + 4 Food at the end of this turn, Hammers box = 19/22 + 1 Hammer at the end of this turn
T20 Size 3 = one (2 Food + 1 Hammer) square + 2 (1 Food + 2 Hammers) squares, still building the Warrior, Food Box = 0/39 + 0 Food at the end of this turn, Hammers box = 20/22 + 6 Hammers at the end of this turn, for an overflow of 4 Hammers
T21 Size 3 = Corn + Corn + one (1 Food + 2 Hammers) square, start building the Worker, Food Box = 0/39 + 0 Food at the end of this turn, Hammers box = 0/90 + 10 Hammers (3 Food Surplus + 3 Hammers + 4 Overflow Hammers = 10 Hammers) at the end of this turn (Worker in 15 turns)
T22 Size 3 = Corn + Corn + one (1 Food + 2 Hammers) square, still building the Worker, Food Box = 0/39 + 0 Food at the end of this turn, Hammers box = 10/90 + 6 Hammers (3 Food Surplus + 3 Hammers = 6 Hammers) at the end of this turn (Worker in 14 turns)
As should be easy to calculate, we have 80 Hammers left to go. 78 divided by 6 = 13, leaving us 80 - 78 = 2 remainder. So, the Worker does not complete any faster due to have 4 overflow Hammers, as 4 Hammers will continue to overflow into the Settler.

Unfortunately, the Settler does not come out a turn faster due to those overflow Hammers, either.

So, no matter what we try and do, by completing the Warrior before the Worker, we will delay the Worker by 1 turn, which doesn't sound like a terrible thing before running the mathematics, but once you see the costs added up of what 1 turn of lost Worker improvements really means to the overall empire.

Thus, of our options:
B] Growing for 2 turns and building a Worker right away after growing to Size 3 without finishing the Warrior now. That method takes 17 turns from now to get the Worker. The Warrior will not lose any Hammers invested in this manner, as long as you keep him in the build queue.

Spoiler Queue info :

Note that leaving the Warriror in the queue is the default behaviour of the interface--you have to go out of your way to remove him from the build queue. So, don't manually remove the Warrior from the queue and he'll be there.

C] Growing for 2 turns and finishing the Warrior and then building a Worker takes 18 turns.

if we were to go with Scenario C, it would cost us:
3 (maybe 4) Food, 3 Hammers, and 4 Commerce = 10-11 Basic Inputs

My vote is that Scenario B is clearly far better. I think that it is plain to see that delaying the Worker for even 1 more turn is too costly of an affair.


The reason why Scenario B also beats Scenario A
The only reason not to start building the Worker immediately is because we actually gain 1 turn on building the Worker by first growing to Size 3. This happens because it only takes us 2 turns to grow to Size 3, while it takes 3 turns less to build the Worker at Size 3.


Let's get more detail in our PPPs and use this detail to make our turnsets easier
I don't want to make Irgy feel bad, because we all make mistakes, and he is forgiven for his as far as I am concerned. However, we should DO OUR BEST TO LEARN from the experience and thus all be aware that each turn the Worker was delayed, it cost us 10-11 Basic Inputs PER TURN. So, that's why I urge you to put in as much detail in your PPP as possible and to follow the PPP's details as much as possible, so as to make your own job of remembering all of the little details that much easier. Learn from our mistakes and improve; fail to learn from them and plan to repeat them over and over.


So, to summarize, here's what should be in your PPP (in addition to other things, such as the Espionage change for T18):
T18 Size 2 = Corn + Corn, still building the Warrior
T19 Size 2 = Corn + Corn, still building the Warrior
T20 Size 3 = Corn + Corn + a (1 Food + 2 Hammers) square*, Build a Worker and leave the Warrior in the queue

Spoiler Explaning the Asterisk "*" :

I ran some extensive tests to see if any of these things would make a difference:
1. Warrior before Worker maximizing Hammer overflow
2. Worker before Warrior maximizing Hammer overflow (you actually get the same amount of overflow)
3. Working the Corns when building the Warrior, to maximize Basic Inputs and not caring about overflow

Nothing mattered. Settlers 2 and 3, as well as Worker 2 all came out at the same time. Regardless of whether we built Worker 2 before or after Settler 3, no savings were made due to overflow.

Thus, for the turn that we complete the Warrior, we are best served by working the same squares that we are working on T20, since we maximize Basic Inputs this way (netting us 2 extra Commerce). It is even possible that if we work a 2 Food + 1 Hammers square, the results will be the same, but I did not try this scenario, while I checked that having that extra Food will NOT help us to grow any faster (8 Food per turn from 2 Corns + a Plains Hills River Mined square takes us 6 turns to grow, regardless of whether we have anywhere from 0 through 4 Food overflow--the only options available to us). So, just in case that extra Hammer would potentially throw off the calculations (I doubt that it would), we'll go with a 1 Food + 2 Hammers square until the Plains Hills River square is Mined. One the Hills square is mined, we'll obviously want to switch to the Mined square ASAP.

 

[BLubmuz]

T20 Size 3 = Corn + Corn + a (1 Food + 2 Hammers) square*, Build a Worker and leave the Warrior in the queue

I strongly disagree with this. To gain 1 worker turn you give away 16 or more turns of exploration.

I understand your reasoning about H-F-C lost, which gives us the size of that mistake (for which i don't want crucify Irgy).
Let's put in this way: we buy 16 turns of exploration with the H-F-C we lose.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Here's a map that uses Mitchum's latest Test Saved Game.

I played out the game building the Worker immediately after growing to Size 3. The Worker was just completed and has started irrigating the northern Corn.

During this time, Hinduism expanded our borders to what you see in the screenshot.

In this game, I "goofed around" with Warrior 1 and he died to a Lion. Far better would be to keep him in place, ending his turn (by pressing the Spacebar at the end of each turn), which, by the way, gains you the Fortification bonus but has the bonus over Fortifying of centering the screen on the Warrior on each turn, so that you can respond to Barb threats.


Those big 5x5 squares that you see are the areas that a Warrior can fog-bust. The teal 5x5 square represents what our Warrior remaining in place can fog-bust. Along with the Lions and the Bear, by remaining out there, we're doing a great job of preventing new units from spawning.

After Turn 50 is when the "fun" begins. Animals slowly start to disappear from the map. The immediate effect is that the Animals stop fog-busting. If we don't have fog-busters in place, then Barb Archers start appearing.


The lands to the WEST are not going to be fog-busted by any AIs. The lands to the north and east MAY get some fog-busting by roving AI units.


I have placed PINK SQUARES to indicate "passive fog-busting" performed by our Cultural Borders. It is possible that we may get a couple MORE squares fog-busted, depending upon the currently-hidden terrain, but we should get at a minimum all of the pink squares that I marked.


With just 2 Warriors in the west, we will hardly ever spawn a Barb unit. Without those 2 Warriors in the west, somewhere between 3-4 Barb Archers will appear by turn 60. We will have NO AI units on that side of us to take out those Barb Archers.


Where the Warrior is located now, and possibly in the Plains Forest square to the east of him (which is daring to move to with the Lions roaming around), he can do an acceptable job of fog-busting the area. Preferably, we'll get 2 Warriors out there to do the job properly, as my pink squares indicate.


However, WE NEED to be in that area on or just before Turn 50. Can we honestly justify sending Warrior 1 away and then back again? Can we get him back to there safely past Lions in flatland terrain? It's unlikely. If we have to get him there past Archers, due to having to dodge the Lions, it won't even happen.

So, my recommendation is to keep Warrior 1 out there, partially fog-busting for new Animals, while preparing to eventually go to the FOG BUSTING 1 location.


I have also mapped out my suggestion for moving Warrior 2. I would strongly push to have Warrior 2 come out after the Worker, but just in case I am overruled, I put up a suggested movement path for him now.


Warrior 2 should check out the BLUE SQUARES for a potential Seafood Resource. We need someone to do that before Settler 2 is ready, and I strongly suggest that this "someone" not be Warrior 1, unless you want to whip away our cities, throwing away units against hordes of Barb Archers, possibly throwing away The Oracle or at least killing our economy while doing so.


I didn't map out ALL of the arrows to get to the BLUE SQUARES' area, as it will depend upon what's in the hidden squares as to which direction the Warrior will need to explore down there. Just make sure that whoever sends the Warrior down there, they uncover all of the BLUE SQUARES.


The ORANGE SQUARES will hopefully be revealed for free via a cultural expansion. If not, then we can consider sending our Warrior that went to the BLUE SQUARES to finish off exploring the ORANGE SQUARES as his next task, before going west to fog-bust.


Yes, exploration to the north and east will be ideal, but let's do it safely with a later Warrior 3 (possibly inserted into our build order before Settler 3 is complete), as even 1 Archer appearing to the west can cost us 3-10 Warriors in sacrifice (due to dying and then more Archers spawning due to not having more fog-busters out there, possibly allowing Axes to spawn as a result)--not worth it.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I strongly disagree with this. To gain 1 worker turn you give away 16 or more turns of exploration.

I understand your reasoning about H-F-C lost, which gives us the size of that mistake (for which i don't want crucify Irgy).
Let's put in this way: we buy 16 turns of exploration with the H-F-C we lose.

The cost of that, 11* Basic Inputs, is half of the cost of another full Warrior!

Wouldn't it be better just to put the other half of the Warrior into our build queue immediately after Settler 2, gaining us half of a Warrior at a time when we will soon need one (for eastward exploration and fog-busting) instead of now, when exploration gained that can't be done later will be minimal?

* 10 if a Forest grows on the Grassland River square

Certainly, we need a vote for this issue.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Another reason why Judaism in our capitol is a Good Thing. EDIT: This plan is unworkable, since the Silver City will be founded well before we learn Monotheism, so forget this message.
Judaism in the capitol gets us another border expansion in the capitol on turn 95, assuming that we don't switch to a single religion.

Assuming that we get The Oracle around that time, we should still get cultural border expansion around that time, as the couple of turns of Oracle culture should make up for the missing turns of only expanding borders due to 1 religion instead of 2 religions.


So, that's another reason, besides the reasons of saving a Missionary (or possibly more Missionaries, for every time that spreading fails) in order to get our State Religion in two cities.


We hardly need border expansion in the south:
- The Silver is already available for use, no matter whether we settle next to it or 1 square away from it
- City 2's borders themselves, without expansion, will still do most or all of the fog-busting needed down there, depending upon where we place the city
- Even if some fog-busting is missed, there's very little room for a Barb Person (Archer) to spawn there
- Border expansion will happen soon enough, anyway, as with 2 Holy Cities within a few squares, religious spread will take only a couple of turns, then only 15 more turns to expand the borders. Any additional border expansion will be wasted down there
- Our capitol, which will be building a Great Prophet Wonder, will be a Double Holy City--Holy Shrines also produce Great Prophets, thus helping to generate more Great Prophets for more Great Shrines

 

[unclethrill]

PPP#1

T18 Work two corns till grow, Set Espionage to 1 to Zara
T20 Delhi grows to 3, 1 turn left on warrior, Work 2 H + 1 food for 1 hammer overflow
T21 Finish warrior
Move NE (forest)-> NE(hill)-> N(hill) -> see what is up there (resources/settle locations)
T30 Get Agri and Start Masonry
T34 Borders should expand to include Silver.
T36 Finish Worker. Start Corn Farming to the North, Finish TS so that we can decide what to build next.




When safe bring warrior 1 back to explore south. He will be back in time to explore the southern coast to see what we have for settling well before we have a settler.


I think that the exploring warrior for 15 turns is more important than 1 more worker turn.

The Results: Scenario B is the clear winner (Grow to Size 3 then start on Worker 1 immediately)

The cost per turn of delaying the completion of the Worker
Each turn from now on that we delay in producing the Worker, we lose the following:
1 turn of worked Corn for 3 Food, 1 turn of worked Silver for 1 Hammer + 4 Commerce, and 1 turn of worked Mined Plains Hills River square for 2 Hammers

Thus, each turn that we delay building the Worker costs us:
3 Food, 3 Hammers, and 4 Commerce

I strongly disagree with this. To gain 1 worker turn you give away 16 or more turns of exploration.

I understand your reasoning about H-F-C lost, which gives us the size of that mistake (for which i don't want crucify Irgy).
Let's put in this way: we buy 16 turns of exploration with the H-F-C we lose.

PPP#2

T18 Work two corns till grow, Set Espionage to 1 to Zara
T20 Delhi grows to 3, Start, Start Worker, Work 2 H + 1 food.
T30 Get Agri and Start Masonry
T34 Borders should expand to include Silver.
T35 Finish Worker. Start Corn Farming to the North, Finish TS so that we can decide what to build next.




Okay, I updated based on what Dhoom's tests showed. I know that the extra worker turn is important but I really think that the knowledge of the map we can get from that warrior shouldn't be discounted. Knowing how big our landmass is, where Zara is, if there are other neighbors, where possible settle locations are and possible choke points to slow down Zara's expansion are all extremely important and may well be worth the 10 units of food/commerce/production.

I also think that your calculations are skewed. We can count one turn on each corn for 3 extra food. That's 6 food. And then the PH Mine for 2 hammers. The silver is a moot point since it is outside our BFC so we can't work it from the capital and since it will be inside our culture by T34 the worker will have plenty of time to improve it before we get city 2 down. The improvements will take a total of 18 turns to complete so the way I see it:

By delaying the warrior and starting the worker as soon as we grow, we gain 6 F and 2H, a total of 8 not 11 and we lose 15 turns of exploration that could find us a better city site that is positioned to get us all the things we need like the silver site and also block Zara's expansion.

So I agree that we need to vote:

The choices are
A) Finish Warrior then start worker (Following PPP#1)
B) Stop warrior as soon as we grow and Start worker (Following PPP#2)


I believe that the rules require a 24 hour voting period unless all weigh-in earlier. So The timer has started and I will plan to play Monday night instead of tonight.

 

[unclethrill]

I vote A

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I strongly disagree with this. To gain 1 worker turn you give away 16 or more turns of exploration.

Just to make you feel better, it's only 15 turns of exploration.

Turn 21 Warrior vs Turn 36 Warrior, either possibility coming in time to either:
- Scout out the Silver area and fog-bust west
- Scout out the Silver area and explore for a nearby city site to the east

I much prefer delaying Settler 3 slightly in order to pump out another Warrior using the cost-savings.


COMPROMISE: A third possibility--greater empire efficiency and additional exploration combined into one path. EDIT: My testing proved that we don't have that many turns of leeway. A better Compromise would be to build a Warrior in our capitol immediately after Settler 2 is built, which also has the benefit of growing us to Size 4 in about the same number of turns.
Or, optionally, in the Worker-first scenario, we build another Warrior immediately after Warrior 2, as we have a few turns of leeway there where City 2 will be settled but won't have a Mined Silver to work, as the Silver will just have been started on getting a Mine improvement around the time that we are ready to settle City 2. That way, we'd have a fog-buster for the west and an explorer + fog-buster for the east, potentially saving us from an Archer attack when we least expect it.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I also think that your calculations are skewed. We can count one turn on each corn for 3 extra food. That's 6 food. And then the PH Mine for 2 hammers. The silver is a moot point since it is outside our BFC so we can't work it from the capital and since it will be inside our culture by T34 the worker will have plenty of time to improve it before we get city 2 down. The improvements will take a total of 18 turns to complete so the way I see it:

By delaying the warrior and starting the worker as soon as we grow, we gain 6 F and 2H, a total of 8 not 11 and we lose 15 turns of exploration that could find us a better city site that is positioned to get us all the things we need like the silver site and also block Zara's expansion.

I assure you that my calculations are accurate, although you are right that I may have missed something.

We Irrigate the north Corn 1 turn sooner.
That's 1 more turn of 6 Food + 1 Commerce versus 1 more turn of 3 Food + 1 Commerce = 3 Food

We also Irrigate the west Corn 1 turn sooner.
That's 1 more turn of 6 Food + 1 Commerce versus 1 more turn of 3 Food + 1 Commerce = 3 Food

City 2 will be settled before we complete the Silver Mine, so it will be working an unworked Silver Mine or else another square that equivalently provides 4 Basic Inputs, such as a Lake for 2 Food + 2 Commerce.
That's 1 more turn of 3 Hammers + 6 Commerce versus 1 more turn of 2 Hammers + 2 Commerce (or, if you prefer, 2 Food + 2 Commerce).

City 3 will be working a 3 (Food + Hammers) square before the Plains Hills River square is mined.
That's 1 more turn of 4 Hammers + 1 Commerce, instead of 3 Food+Hammers (or, 2 Hammers + 1 Commerce, if you compare it to the unmined Plains Hills River square).

3 Food + 3 Food + (1 Hammer + 4 Commerce) + 2 Hammers = 13 Basic Inputs.
If we grow to Size 4 by the time that we Irrigate the Grassland River square (which was in our original plan), then that would be 14 Basic Inputs.


You CAN calculate these values in this way because we have the citizens ALREADY WORKING those undeveloped squares. You CANNOT add up bonuses this way if you do not have the population to support citizens that could work said squares.

So, for an empire that builds a Worker first and improves 2 Resources before growing to Size 2, only 1 of those Resources can be worked, thus the extra Worker turn has a smaller impact. FOR AN EMPIRE LIKE OURS, where we have CITIZENS WORKING MULTIPLE UNDEVELOPED SQUARES, there is a GREAT OPPORTUNITY COST for each Worker turn delayed.


Please ask further questions if you don't understand why the math works the way that it does, but the math is right.

 

[unclethrill]

where City 2 will be settled but won't have a Mined Silver to work, as the Silver will just have been started on getting a Mine improvement around the time that we are ready to settle City 2. That way, we'd have a fog-buster for the west and an explorer + fog-buster for the east, potentially saving us from an Archer attack when we least expect it.

I don't understand this. We finish the worker on T35 or T36 (depending on vote) He has 18 turns of improvements (2 farms, 1 mine :6 turns each) Add 2 turns for movement and then 6 more turns for the silver mine= Total of 26 turns to improve all 4. The improved silver will be in the BFC of city 2 immediately due to capitals border pops. That means we have All 4 done including silver mine by T55 (or 56). It will be at least T60 before we finish Mono and we don't want city 2 down until after we found Judaism.

Therefore, the silver will be completed well before city 2 is even founded much less before it can work it and still grow.

And I'm still holding out the hope that we can find an acceptable commerce square to work to the east towards Zara and save the silver for a later city.

 

[BLubmuz]

1) a unit fogbusting a 5x5 area without being on a hill? I always thought a unit fogbusts the area he can see.

2) you can be right about the need to scout E. But don't try to dupe me with that 11 something thing. A warrior costs hammers, not food or commerce.

3) we must test if it will be better to grow 4 building warriors before squeeze 2 settlers in a row: i understand the need to settle the Silver city, but we must settle in the best possible spot East to block Zara. For best possible, i mean not optimal, just not terrible.

4) then we need to quickly plan another city NE, for the same reason. Without OBs we can settle the West in best possible spots. Well, in the less horrible ones.
BTW, on the diplomatic side, what if we refuse OB to Zara? Just until our REX is almost done, not forever, i mean.

5) While it's a good thing to reveal possible resources to the South, i think 2W of silver is the best placement for that city, unless there's something interesting hidden E.
It has fresh water and with a LH those 4 fresh water tiles will be better than a seafood. Build Moai there, and it will be a decent city.

 

[unclethrill]

I assure you that my calculations are accurate, although you are right that I may have missed something.

We Irrigate the north Corn 1 turn sooner.
That's 1 more turn of 6 Food + 1 Commerce versus 1 more turn of 3 Food + 1 Commerce = 3 Food

We also Irrigate the west Corn 1 turn sooner.
That's 1 more turn of 6 Food + 1 Commerce versus 1 more turn of 3 Food + 1 Commerce = 3 Food

City 2 will be settled before we complete the Silver Mine, so it will be working an unworked Silver Mine or else another square that equivalently provides 4 Basic Inputs, such as a Lake for 2 Food + 2 Commerce.
That's 1 more turn of 3 Hammers + 6 Commerce versus 1 more turn of 2 Hammers + 2 Commerce (or, if you prefer, 2 Food + 2 Commerce).

City 3 will be working a 3 (Food + Hammers) square before the Plains Hills River square is mined.
That's 1 more turn of 4 Hammers + 1 Commerce, instead of 3 Food+Hammers (or, 2 Hammers + 1 Commerce, if you compare it to the unmined Plains Hills River square).

3 Food + 3 Food + (1 Hammer + 4 Commerce) + 2 Hammers = 13 Basic Inputs.
If we grow to Size 4 by the time that we Irrigate the Grassland River square (which was in our original plan), then that would be 14 Basic Inputs.


You CAN calculate these values in this way because we have the citizens ALREADY WORKING those undeveloped squares. You CANNOT add up bonuses this way if you do not have the population to support citizens that could work said squares.

So, for an empire that builds a Worker first and improves 2 Resources before growing to Size 2, only 1 of those Resources can be worked, thus the extra Worker turn has a smaller impact. FOR AN EMPIRE LIKE OURS, where we have CITIZENS WORKING MULTIPLE UNDEVELOPED SQUARES, there is a GREAT OPPORTUNITY COST for each Worker turn delayed.


Please ask further questions if you don't understand why the math works the way that it does, but the math is right.

I still disagree that the silver can count in this calculations. See my previous post for why the mine will be done before we settle city 2.