SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[Silu]

FWIW, I think:
- 'Mids at first opportunity so that we get a 100% GS for Academy
- GEs as Muti is saying, or so in a way that favors (not guarantees) GEs in Delhi, running an Engineer and Bureau cottages as priorities. This distinction is not urgent for the immediate future; not running an odd repr spec here and there to preserve GE purity is just dumb in the short term IMO before we get a Forge.

 

[mdy]

I've been looking at the various options and it looks like the earliest date we can build the Pyramids, compatible with a 100% chance of an academy, and getting 6 very early (by 1000B.C.) cities is T122 or 950B.C.

If we delay the last city by around 9 turns then we can bring it forward to T118, 1050B.C.

I favour the T122 date as I think the risks of losing the Pyramids at that date are negligable.

If the team can't reach a consensus perhaps we should take a vote?

 

[Silu]

T122 with early cities and 100% academy sounds good to me, followed by the T118 with slightly stifled growth. The main things I might disagree with are a later 'Mids than that or below 100% GS.

 

[LowtherCastle]

@mdy: I think you've misunderstood me. The only variation I posted with impure GS was the "fastest mids" on 1175bc. My 1075bc and 1050 bc variations were pure GS with 6 cities by 1000bc.

 

[mystyfly]

I'm sorry but I haven't followed that mids discussion so I won't take part in any vote, I just barely skimmed the posts. I am sure however that we'll find the best way I'd like to pass the virtual torch to mdy (according to the roster) as he has been actively taking part in that discussion.

 

[Mutineer]

Mids later then 1000BC is absolutely unacceptable.

To be true Mids 1100Bc is too risky in my book.

 

[babybluepants]

I'm for the fastest Pyramids that allow a 100% GS and 6 cities down by 1000 BC.

Spoiler :

Thx for all the testing, LC.

I think we're decided on 1NE of oasis? I'm a bit indifferent on that issue. Call me 50:50

The issue with the least consensus seems to be the tech path after Sailing, but we can play a 'Mids/GS/REX set without making that decision.

PS: Hoping for a mid-to-late-game GE with 20-ish% from capital and a forge Eng in, say, the clams city is fine with me. We obviously need a few relatively fast GS's in the short term, so that seems to be the best option.

 

[mushroomshirt]

Wow! Lots of discussion (as usual)

Like others have pointed out, we will have many shots at a GE, so I'm not so concerned with odds <100%.

On the other hand, we really really want to get a GS this time around. Any other result will be a very significant blow to us.

I really cannot comment on whether a 1000BC pyramids is early or late or risky or not.

I think we're at an impasse. I know of four ways to resolve it:
1. Captain unilaterally decides.
2. The turnset player decides.
3. We vote and democracy rules.
4. The biggest temper tantrum wins.

Any preferences?

My preference would be for #2 as long as both potential choices are well thought out, clearly explained and there is no consensus among other team members.

 

[mdy]

The only variation I posted with impure GS was the "fastest mids" on 1175bc. My 1075bc and 1050 bc variations were pure GS with 6 cities by 1000bc.

If we can get a T118/T117 Pyramids, without risking the academy, and get 6 very early cities at the same time I am all for it. I have had a look at your saves and I have not been able to see easily how to duplicate your results, could you post the necessary micromanagement?

 

[LowtherCastle]

If we can get a T118/T117 Pyramids, without risking the academy, and get 6 very early cities at the same time I am all for it. I have had a look at your saves and I have not been able to see easily how to duplicate your results, could you post the necessary micromanagement?

Sure, do you have a preference?

1) Delhi: Settler-mids-settler-mids; Bombay: worker-settler-wkr ("set over FINAL")
2) Delhi: Worker-mids-settler-mids; Bombay: settler-settler-wkr ("wkr over FINAL")

 

[LowtherCastle]

@Silu: Zara still has no metal. I know that the mechanics of AIs picking their next tech are complicated, but I was wondering it you know if not having a metal yet is a sizable factor in his tech choice. More important, what's the likelihood of him teching aplha next, if he finds iron?

 

[Silu]

Reveal desperation extras:

Copper value if NO Horse: 1.66x
Iron value if NO (Copper OR Horse): 3x
Iron value if Copper XOR Horse: 1.25x

About whether he'll likely go Alpha, I really can't say very accurately. AIs do generally put emphasis on it, but AFAICT Zara is not one of those. ZY is flavor (emphasis, basically) RELIGION:2 GROWTH:5 and Alpha is RELIGION:2 SCIENCE:8 GOLD:4, so not much help there (at least compared to dudes like Joao, Linc or Peter who have SCIENCE:5). Still as the choice is quite deterministic and he's going Alpha in the test save it's very possible (maybe even probable, don't really know) he's gunning for Alpha. Likely not before IW in any case, which is a big GROWTH tech.

Justin is MILITARY:2 RELIGION:5 for reference.

 

[babybluepants]

Silu,
Does isolation/semi-iso have nothing to do with it?

With a quick-rough calculation, I'm getting that Currency/Alphabet is slightly better than Alphabet/Currency (extra TR's vs. discount). Not sure how accurate it is (probably better to play through this one since there are too many variables). The only thing we'd want in trade right now is IW, and that's not super-pressing. Maybe we're better off giving Zara and Justinian more of a chance to research Alphabet, while we just head for Currency first?

 

[babybluepants]

Off-topic (slightly):
I thought I'd keep a game summary going this time, as it's a really nice feature in other teams' threads. And, it seems like too much of a PITA to do retroactively... Forgot all about it, but I started one today in post #2. Not quite up-to-date yet. Any thoughts / suggestions on format / info displayed / etc?

 

[mdy]

Sure, do you have a preference?

1) Delhi: Settler-mids-settler-mids; Bombay: worker-settler-wkr ("set over FINAL")
2) Delhi: Worker-mids-settler-mids; Bombay: settler-settler-wkr ("wkr over FINAL")

The worker over looks better developed, which is a bit of a mystery to me as we should get a worker 1T later on the settler over.

One thought that has just struck me: If we are going to be building workboats to start with in rice city perhaps we should found the crab city first? That way we could save the few chops available in rice city for infastructure. It should be possible to get another settler out shortly after 1000B.C.

 

[Mutineer]

Marble citi os priority in my book. We do not want to build Toa, but we can use fail gold.

 

[babybluepants]

Clams does get marble, as well.
That's an interesting idea, mdy... Honestly, I think the rice city is just too good to delay, though. It gets to grow a little bit, at least, and rice gets improved.
Worker overflow seems clearly better. I was for that option to begin with, but I'm surprised it's actually noticeably faster at this point.

 

[LowtherCastle]

The worker over looks better developed, which is a bit of a mystery to me as we should get a worker 1T later on the settler over.

Worker overflow seems clearly better. I was for that option to begin with, but I'm surprised it's actually noticeably faster at this point.

Imo, neither version is significantly "better" developed actually--they are differently developed because 1) I made certain choices and 2) settler-over gives our 2-fish worker more choices (Marble or Rice settled 4-5t sooner). It boils down to our priorities.

Here are some possible prioritizations:

Settler-over
1. Develop both 2-fish and marble asap for fastest reserach. After cows/pigs, worker goes to pasture Marble cows. Settler-over builds the Marble settler at the right time for this, worker-over is 5t later.
2. Get our western exploration wb out sooner. Settler-over gets it out 5t sooner.

Worker-over
3. Develop 2-Fish asap for faster research. After cows/pigs, the wkr 1-chops the granary. In this case, settler-over is worse because it builds Rice or Marble 4-5t too soon, before the worker is available.
4. Get the Pyramids 1t sooner. This is the worker-over version.



So...
1. Do we chop in 2-fish or save it for NE?
2. Do we start developing Marble asap? (It will develop much more slowly than 2-fish.)
3. Just how much do we prioritize wb exploration? (We won't have alpha for trade for a while, we will need at least a galley to spread Conf Misses...)
4. Should we settle Clams before Rice?

 

[LowtherCastle]

we might change FP city position depends what exploration discover.

Mutineer, could you explain your thinking a bit more, please? How might exploration make us want to settle FP (Rice) differently?

 

[Mutineer]

see island on left? near Crab?

If there some valuable resources there we might want to settle city there and give it Crabs.

In this case good city cite become riverside plains, in addition saving floodplain.