SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[LowtherCastle]

see island on left? near Crab?

If there some valuable resources there we might want to settle city there and give it Crabs.

In this case good city cite become riverside plains, in addition saving floodplain.

I get it. Hmmm... What I'm struggling with is this: 2-Fish needs 2 wbs asap and we don't want to build them in 2-Fish. Even if we 2pop the lh in 2-fish, it needs the first wb on T127, without fail.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Delhi: worker-first

T100
wkr1(stone): CANCEL action
Delhi: build worker
Delhi MM: work 2corn, silver

T101
wkr2 (Copper 1S): quarry stone
wkr1: quarry stone
wkr3: pasture horses
wkr4 (Delhi): mv to Delhi NW, forest hill
Delhi: build Mids
Delhi MM: work 2corn, silver

T102
wkr1/2/3: pasture horses
wkr4: chop forest hill
settle Vijayanagara (Viagra for short): build granary
Conf Miss: Nothing (give Viagra 1t for auto-spread of Conf)

T103
wkr1 mv 3NE to incense (going to chop Oasis City wbs)
IN SEQUENCE:
1) 2pop Bombay settler
2) revolt to caste systems
3) hire an artist in Viagra
spread Conf to Viagra

T104
wkr1 mv to forest hill N-NW of oasis (depending on where the barb is, of course)
Bombay settler mv to Oasis City
Bombay: build settler
wkr2/3 rd horses-1S
wkr2/3 CANCEL action

T105
wkr1 to oasis 2N and chops
wkr2/3 pasture cows
Delhi: pop4, work 2f1h

T106
wk4 finishes Delhi chop
Viagra: fire artist
Crab warrior can defog water tile from 2N or whatever

T107
Settle Pataliputra: Examine city: hire artist, build wb
Delhi: pop5, work 2corn, silver, 2sci

T108
wkr2/3 pasture pigs
wkr4 1S chop (Delhi E)

T109
wkr1 finish Patal chop

T110
wb1 explores
Patal: build wb
wkr1 1NE chops (wheat 1E)

T111
Sailing done. Set research slider to 0%.
wkr2 1W chop (Viagra N-NW)
wkr3 mv 3E (preparing to chop Delhi 2W-NW)
wkr4 finish Delhi 1E chop
Patal: fire artist
Revolt to slavery (to be sure we can revolt to Rep/Castes on T117)
Patal-W warrior free to move around

T112
wkr2 chop Delhi 2W-NW
wkr4 chop Delhi 1S

T113
Delhi: pop6 build mids 1 more turn, 6th citizen does whatever

T114
Delhi: build settler for 13h

T115
wkr1 (Patal): mv to forest hill
Delhi: 3pop settler
Delhi MM: citizens work 2corn, 1sci !!!
Patal: build wb3

T116
settler mv toward Marble city location
Delhi: build mids, keep working 2corn, 1sci

T117
GS done
Mids done

 

[babybluepants]

Nice. I'm happy to go with that.

I'm somehow getting Delhi growth and pasture-workers 1t behind your schedule, but I probably just missed something somewhere for a turn.
Edit: missed the "work 2f1h" on t104.

 

[mdy]

A couple of minor points about the plan:

1) I estimate that Delhi will grow to pop 4 on T105, but according to the plan it is T104, does this make any difference.

2) If we are hiring an artist in 2 fish to pop borders do we really need to spread religion there?



I agree that it would be a good idea to delay the crab site until we can scout the nearby island. If we saved the forests it could make a reasonable Maori city location if we saved the forests. If we did settle the island the rice city would be in a suboptimal position, but I can't see any way to avoid this without delaying significantly the rice city, our exploration efforts, and the development of the 2 fish site, so I think we will just have to take this risk.

 

[babybluepants]

So, I guess I'm not the only one 1t late with Delhi... Maybe we are missing some little thing.

The religion spread speeds it up by 1t, but it's probably not necessary since we stay in caste for a while after anyway? We could just save it for now, IMHO.

Edit: I don't particularly like the proposed rice city location, but I think it's understood we're doing it for the benefit of another early coastal city. It could be very important to have a spare spot for galley production later or something.

 

[Mutineer]

Planking suboptimal cities? No, we should not take the risk. Find other way.

there 2 cities position right now unclear this one and lake one, between as and fish,

Lake one we can scout now. (check is there any seafood down south.)

Consider put lake city first.

We really do not need to use missionary now. with 1 artist border expand in 4 turns.

 

[babybluepants]

I'm confused - how many cities are we talking about exactly? I thought we would just go for the OU 6 immediately (2 existing, Viagra, Oasis, N crab and rice). I prefer putting those down asap, so we have some flexibility with the necessary infra whips pre-Educ.

 

[LowtherCastle]

@mdy: Yes, pop4 T105. Sry, just an error in my notes. Yes, we can pop 2-fish culture in 4 turns no problem, if you prefer, which means we can use the Conf Miss as a scout to go down south and see if there's seafood down there. Good combination.

@Mutineer: Frankly, I like Rice on the fp 1S of the rice tile better than the river plains. It gets 6 river tiles instead of four. It gets the marble tile, which we don't want to work in Marble City when we're running specs. It can have 6hpt instead of 1 or 2, and it doesn't lose a forest by settling.

As for Lake City, mdy can send the Conf Miss to scout that area, good idea. But how will that help us build any wbs? I would think that in Lake City, we'd want to build granary-Moai possibly, because it's so short on hammers.

Btw, guys, there's also potential seafood north of the northern horses and to the W of the rice, we should defog that too asap.

 

[Mutineer]

@Mutineer: Frankly, I like Rice on the fp 1S of the rice tile better than the river plains. It gets 6 river tiles instead of four. It gets the marble tile, which we don't want to work in Marble City when we're running specs. It can have 6hpt instead of 1 or 2, and it doesn't lose a forest by settling.

What forests? I know of about 3 forest ties in test save that does not exist in real one, and I believe it is one of them.

 

[LowtherCastle]

In this case good city cite become riverside plains, in addition saving floodplain.

What forests? I know of about 3 forest ties in test save that does not exist in real one, and I believe it is one of them.

I see only two riverside plains near the rice and both have forests on them in the real save. I assume you meant the riverside plains tile to the SW of the axe, right? Settling there costs us a workboat chop.

Hey guys, forests and every other map detail are important. If you notice that I miss something when I update bbp's test save, pleeeeeeaaaasssseee tell me immediately, so we don't test with bad information.

---------------

Mutineer, I assume we want to build the Mausoleum eventually. Where do you think we should do that to avoid gene pollution? In Bombay?

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'm confused - how many cities are we talking about exactly? I thought we would just go for the OU 6 immediately (2 existing, Viagra, Oasis, N crab and rice). I prefer putting those down asap, so we have some flexibility with the necessary infra whips pre-Educ.

Good confusion question!

• We need the six Oxford cities.
• We need our GP cities producing only needed infrastructure. 2-fish/Marble?
• We need a production city for MoM (imo) other than Delhi. Bombay?
• We need cities capable of producing 6+ wbs asap. Oasis and Rice?
• We also need a galley asap to spread Confuciansim to Justy before he gets another religion.
• anything else urgent?

 

[mdy]

In the short term we need at least 6 good cities, our current 2 , 2 fish, wheat, rice, and clams. In the longer term we will want more, at the moment we have 4 potential city sites:

1) A city to grab the deer, however if there is no seafood down there we may prefer to wait for Delhi's culture to expand.

2) A city to grab the silver, which will be useful to trade for other resources, but this is not urgent at the moment.

3) A city to get the sugar on the Northern Island, though as we don't have calendar this city isn't urgent either unless it is close to Justin or there is something very good in the fog.

4) A city to get the crabs. The location depends on what we find around the island, but if we build it on the mainland and we want to use it for the Maori Statues we would want to found it soon after 1000 B.C in order to get the necessary infrastructure up.

If we build the M0M/Parthenon then Bombay is the only realistic possibility, unless we find a strong production site on a nearby island.

I think it would be worthwhile to chop out a galley amongst the workboats in wheat city, to enable us to settle on other island/carry a scout to explore a larger island, and to give us the option of spreading our religion to other AI's.

 

[Mutineer]

anything else urgent?

I really do not want to make an issue out of it, but it is possible to chop G Lighthouse somewhere?

It is probably too late, as I assume all ai have sailing and GL will be gone soon.
Personally i would forget about longer terms goals and concentrate pn short term, which seem are 2:

1) Build Mids as fast as possible.
2) get academy.

Personally I believe only first goal in essential, but majority think that academy matter.

So, my suggestion is:

Focus on this 2 goals.

If current sequence is right we will have only 2 settlers for start and 2 later.

we know 3 city site we are sure we want to settle.

1) Our GP farm with 2 fish and 2 other food resources.
2) North marble city with multiply crabs.
3) wheat city near Zara.

We have other possible sites, but we need to do some exploration to decide there exec location.

WE want to have 6 developed cities for oxvard.
so, I would not concentrate too mach on development first 2 additional cities in detriment our 2 main goals:
Mids and academy.

I think this is good summary of discussion, with my preferences.

 

[shyuhe]

Sorry been out of the loop for a few days and look at all this discussion

My thoughts on team flow first:

mdy is currently the player who's up, so I think we should defer to him for decisions that we are split on. We still have lots of time for this game so there's no big hurry obviously, but at some point I'm sure the discussion will become circular and less fruitful.

I think we're more or less in agreement that we need/want the pyramids and an academy in Delhi. I think we're also generally in agreement about our GE problem - i.e., we can't wait for a gE at 100% odds, so we should just hope for the best with Oxford pollution in Delhi and engineers in other cities as we can.

As for cities, have people shifted their positions from the original 2-fish -- coastal wheat plan? I don't think people have, so the only question remaining should be tech path. We need fishing--sailing, and after that, I think we need to figure out what tech we want after that. So as I see it, the things we need to figure out now are:

next 3 techs
next 2 cities
destination of Delhi hammer overflow
and use of missionary (or not) on 2-fish. So can everyone post their thoughts on those? I think we're fairly close in opinion, in which case LC's posted play plan should fit the glove.

Also, it may be better to stop the next set after sailing is in, so that we can re-analyze what Zara is researching (and we need to make sure we keep enough EP on him to maintain visibility). If he goes for alphabet, that obviously simplifies our tech choices.

Regarding extraneous wonders, I think GLH is out. It takes too many hammers and none of our coastal cities have good hammer sources except wheat/coast, which will be busy with boats. MoM, I'm ok with, but I don't want to tech calendar if possible so it may be difficult even with marble. Then again, we will probably not have more than one golden age (unless we grab the Taj) so MoM will probably not be worth the return.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Two good summaries.

If mdy's just playing to Sailing now, then I think he's good to go. Far better to use the Conf Miss as a southern scout than settle in 2-Fish.

 

[shyuhe]

I'm ok with him playing through sailing. I would also save the missionary - I'm ok with the extra 1% GA pollution it'll cause.

 

[babybluepants]

No on GLH. MoM is a really great wonder, but as shyuhe said, we don't wanna tech Calendar and it's hard to actually get. We're talking about potentially Libbing Radio, which means Parth would obsolete fast. I'm generally against it in this kind of game, unless we really have nothing to build somewhere for a while.

mdy can play a set until Sailing or until the third settler is built, I think, and then stop briefly for a discussion. I'm ok with just putting the spare 0% beakers into Currency, btw, as we'll almost certainly be researching that soon.

 

[Silu]

For me: 2Fish->OasisCoastWheat, Sailing->Currency (by the info we have now, might change), ½½ on Settler/Worker overflow, Worker as a tiebreaker. We can save the missionary, minipollution isn't bad with a surefire dump for 4 wrong GPs.

Libbing Radio on Emperor will require some serious windfalls. In general, I wouldn't plan that much on optimizing the MM path yet - we don't know what kind of hoops we need to jump through to get the resources, for all we know we might end up fighting through 50 Longbows to get them.

Something that I kind of just assumed - was it necessary to win either by Culture or UN? Or was the AP also an option?

 

[babybluepants]

No AP, ofc.

Libbing Radio or not, it's a pretty hard beeline we'll certainly follow. I think my point about Parthenon holds.

I thought Sailing was a strong consensus (or it should be). I was talking about spare beakers between Sailing and academy.

 

[Silu]

Yeah I wasn't opposing your point about Parth, or thinking you didn't want to go Sailing Was just some random musings about not relying on our win date being constrained by the date we get UN up, instead of diplo/war things.