SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[shyuhe]

@Mutineer - yes sorry about. I know we had agreed to a clockwise scouting pattern but the peninsula urged me to scout it out a bit more before heading east. On the upside, that coastal site is amazing. I think the warrior should just head east from here.

@mysty - yes culture may actually be able to produce a decent time on this map with this much food to the west. But there's still the issue of finding the 4 resources.

Given the proximity of Zara, BW seems to be the better move here. I'd have to try doing a test on it, but I think growing Delhi to size 4 on warriors then chopping out a settler (combined with a 2 pop whip) will yield the fastest settler. It will also give our scouting warrior plenty of time to head east to go look around for a good site. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if we'll be able to see Zara's capital before his borders pop.

 

[babybluepants]

Random thoughts...

• The FP site is actually a bit problematic for culture, since it seems to completely lack production. Getting a cathedral up there would be like pulling teeth. Similarly, the GP farm site has no production whatsoever (not even any forests to chop). In the kind of culture game that can contend for laurels here (300 turns roughly), we'd need NE up in the BC's. There's essentials: 2 WB's at least (assuming we can get exploring units out elsewhere), granary, LH, library; and then there's other stuff: settler/worker pump in lieu of capital chasing wonders, mainly. And, we're probably not settling it 'till fourth city? ... Anyway, I'm not sure this changes much in terms of desired VC. Seeing marble still might, but it's doubtful.
• Zara's second border pop happens on turn 38, and it seems to me like our initial warrior can get to his capital circa turn 28 if we move east every turn. I'd definitely do that immediately, since we could always get hit by a wolf or lion and have to heal for 5t or something.
• Zara does appear to be coastal, most likely (F8 screen land area). One possible scenario I could imagine here is that we're on the ass-end of some pangaea-like setup, and that Zara will block us off with his second border pop. If our warrior gets to him and there's evidence of something like this, I'd be inclined to slip by and do some early exploring further afield.
• Note: we should farm the 2W corn first. We get silver mine up on the same turn regardless of which corn goes first, but an extra turn of 6f this way.
• Off the top of my head, I prefer BW here. Silver is insta-connected, and I think an early chop or two will go a long way. Also, we need to chop/mine a river GH or two to get some conventional production going (it sucks that we don't benefit from fast workers on forest hills). Something like: corn, GH, GH, silver and two scientists at pop 6 would be nice to have fairly early... We should, however, run some tests. I wouldn't commit to anything before.
• I wouldn't be inclined to whip the capital too hard, beyond (maybe) the first two-pop whip settler. Silver is good. Hopefully, we'll get a second city capable of whipping towards expansion quickly...
• I was already worried about how moving the settler on turn 0 might force us into suboptimal 2nd and 3rd city placement. If we gave up copper on that grass tile, there doesn't seem to be a good site to pick it up before the capital's second border pop. We'll also probably wanna rush to settle in Zara's direction. Otherwise, the GP farm would be awesome early, but what can you do?

Looking at the culture progress diagram makes it look like chokos moved their settler for several turns

No. They settled on turn 1 (they have 52c on turn 27).

Does anyone happen know what the Emp starting units are for AI's? There's 5 - is its settler, 2 scouts and 2 archers? I'll try and make a new test map tonight.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Couldn't help but break out my spreadsheet to analyze this BW or TW question and optimizing the settler build. This is why I didn't want to get involved in another SG...

Imo, BW first is better. I didn't try bulding a second worker before the settler. Here's my analysis:

1. TW-BW-3 more warriors ==> Settler finished on T48, 1st warrior on T25.
2. TW-BW-2 more warriors ==> Settler finished on T47 2pop & BW 1t sooner. 1st War T28.
3. BW-TW-2 more warriors ==> Settler finished on T45 but no road so loses 1t
Edit: corn-corn-mine-chop
4. BW-TW-2 more warriors ==> Settler finished on T43 but no road so loses 1t
Edit: corn-corn-chop-mine

NOTE: For BW first, these are calculated with the first corn farm coming a turn later than possible according to bbp.

Solution 4 finishes Pottery 1t after pop4 so good timing for a granary poprush. Turns out delaying the silver ine does not hurt research if were going to 2pop the settler in both cases. It also means our next poprush can come thatmuch sooner. I vote for Solution 4.

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Let's think carefully about our warrior scouts. Our next warrior will still have 12 turns to peak into Aksum plus several more to explore that area. Do we really want to send our current warrior over there, especially if we're not roading? Personally, I'd rather send him NW and scout thoroughly.

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xpost with bbp

 

[babybluepants]

What are the sequences in each case, LC? (3) corn-corn-chop-whip (4) corn-corn-mine-whip? Can you post the spreadsheets?

 

[mdy]

It looks like option (4) is the best then in view of the need to block Zara. As long as our second warrior can scout him before the border pop I would send our existing warrior north. We need to know weather that peninsular connects with anything.

 

[shyuhe]

The only risk I see with option 4 is that if there is no suitable city site to the east, then we won't have a warrior to escort the settler to the GP farm site.

 

[LowtherCastle]

We build either 2 or 3 warriors in all scenarios.

 

[babybluepants]

I wasn't thinking of the PH producing faster warriors. I agree that we can leave Zara scouting to the second warrior, and just scout the north with the initial. The third could fogbust our chosen second city site ahead of the settler.

 

[mushroomshirt]

I took a look at the save - here are my initial thoughts. Please comment!

1) scout with first warrior to the north - 2nd warrior will go east to find Zara's capital
2) tech BW - I'll stop after this is in
3) worker irrigates corn, irrigates corn, chops (for settler) then mines silver
4) finish worker, build warrior, warrior - this is probably as far as I'll get since I'll be working the corn, but I will put a chop into a settler if I can

PS congrats on 4,000 posts shyuhe (Wow!)

 

[Mutineer]

Personally I am in favor of Grow to size 3 before starting settler. yes, it delay settler for a bit, but it gives opportunity to speed up reseach and keep worker bizy with improvements.
I am really do not want to spend forests on settlers/workers. and hammers would be precious.

All this is subject to scouting, as we need to know where Zara is and how we best block/limit his development.

 

[babybluepants]

I did a quick test map. Too lazy to even finish all the land we scouted so far.
There's a T43 settler, with chopping the GH, test, as well.
Zara is halfway through building his first settler - I gave him PH city tile, two irrigated rice and clam.

 

[mushroomshirt]

Personally I am in favor of Grow to size 3 before starting settler. yes, it delay settler for a bit, but it gives opportunity to speed up reseach and keep worker bizy with improvements.
I am really do not want to spend forests on settlers/workers. and hammers would be precious.

All this is subject to scouting, as we need to know where Zara is and how we best block/limit his development.

I think by chopping wisely we can continue to grow while building settlers - only using chops until size 3 then a combo of chops / straight build. It is the best of both worlds, no?

Why the reluctance to use chops on settlers? Getting a second city faster allows for REX and exponential growth.

 

[babybluepants]

1) scout with first warrior to the north - 2nd warrior will go east to find Zara's capital

I'm still dubious about this after all. The first warrior can get to Aksum before the second is even built...

@Mutineer,
What do you mean? We were proposing growing to 4, so we can 2-pop whip the settler. You wanna start building it sooner?
Committing to a chop loses 1 turn of silver, I think. We whip down to 2, so wouldn't re-grow until 1t from mine complete. And, this is with chopping the GH, which I think is better so we can mine it later. If we chop the grass forest 1N of capital, we should be able to work silver a.s.a. re-growth to pop 3.

 

[shyuhe]

I had always assumed we were going to chop a flat grass, as it's one turn faster. With irrigate-irrigate-chop, does the chop coincide with Delhi at size 4 building a settler? I need to go look at LC's spreadsheet again...

I think sending the warrior NW to check out the peninsula there first is fine before scouting east along the coast. As pointed out by LC, a second warrior will have plenty of time to go scout east before Aksum's borders pop (11 turns to build one I think?).

 

[mushroomshirt]

I had always assumed we were going to chop a flat grass, as it's one turn faster. With irrigate-irrigate-chop, does the chop coincide with Delhi at size 4 building a settler? I need to go look at LC's spreadsheet again...

Does this really matter? If not at size 4 yet, we should switch build for 1 turn so the chop goes to a settler, no?

 

[babybluepants]

Chopping flat forest, I get settler on T42.

 

[shyuhe]

I'll test when I get home too.

 

[shyuhe]

Does this really matter? If not at size 4 yet, we should switch build for 1 turn so the chop goes to a settler, no?

We should build warriors until size 4 - we can use them either as scouts, spawnbusters, or as the 4 warriors we'll eventually need. It's hard to beat a 2 pop whip off of double wet corn.

 

[mushroomshirt]

We should build warriors until size 4 - we can use them either as scouts, spawnbusters, or as the 4 warriors we'll eventually need. It's hard to beat a 2 pop whip off of double wet corn.

Agreed. However we can still put the chop into a settler for one turn while at all other times building warriors when pop <4.

So my point is I don't think we need to let population dictate when we chop. We can irrigate irrigate chop and if <pop4 build settler for one turn so the chop goes there then return to warrior build.

 

[babybluepants]

I think you guys are misunderstanding each other slightly...

Chopping one into settler seems really strong here. The difference between chopping flat grass and GH is 1t off settler, but re-growth and working silver happen on the same turn.

BTW, in my test file (with 2x wet rice + clam), Zara completes his settler on T50. It would presumably be a couple of turns faster with 2 corn + seafood.