SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[LowtherCastle]

The Pyramids!!! Well done, mdy!

Now we can breathe a bit easier, while we stamp on the gas pedal, of course.

You guys have already done lots of analysis...

Ivory island looks like a great place for Moai Statues. If we settle on the plains ivory, we can have 10hpt and 13 coastal tiles, but slow to access the fish. On the grasshill means 9hpt, 10 coastal tiles, but immediate fish.

If Izzy has a settler on the galley then wouldn't she have gone around to the north? 'Twould have been faster.

Toku has Judaism, but didn't found it. He also has close borders with Justinian, so it looks like there are at least three AIs on the same landmass.

We need to spread our religion to Justinian asap.

Izzy is the ideal opponent in the UN elections. Toku would be fine too, especially if he's expanding like mad.

 

[LowtherCastle]

That sounds fine. I'm going to be completely out of pocket the next few days but should have civ access next week (finally ). I'm sure you guys can manage fine without me LC - you're more than welcome to take a set after mdy if you want.

Shall I take the next turnset to keep the flow going? This is most likely the only one I'll be able to take as within the next month I'll be moving and will have forum but no CIV access.

 

[babybluepants]

Yeah, you should. The lurking thing didn't really work out for you, huh?

 

[Silu]

GJ on the turnset and bringing 'Mids home

I dont think we can do anything if isa settles there but i see no big problem as she'll have 2 sources of ivory and thus trade one away, we must make sure we get it. Should try to gift her techs to stop being WE and have OB, not sure retreating WB is good.

Going to NSR will bring us up to Cautious, removing us as her WE next turn. Should have done that right away when she was met and scout far enough to get trade routes. Even (especially) at this point those would give a big, big boost, we're even TR blocked to Ethiopia, partly using domestic ones. Bad, bad.

I call shenanigans on this AI settle pace. Japan probably started with a couple of settlers. Maybe he's a big big baddie guarding the Fur and the others are relig zealots?

And yeah, definitely should settle the Ivory island _ASAP_. For the record I'm for the plains Ivory. Less border clashing for diplo, if nothing else.

 

[babybluepants]

In my experience Toku actually always expands like mad. Don't find it that surprising.

Where to put the city... I like plains ivory better. We should probably do at least a spell of Caste soon for border pops, so the distance to fish is irrelevant.

 

[mdy]

I have attached a couple of screenshots.

If we can get both Zara and Justinian into Confunicism the diplo should work out. If we can take over 1 more civ by war that should be enough to get us the votes.

The plains ivory looks like the best site, though we will probably lose one of the hills to Zara.

 

[LowtherCastle]

The lurking thing didn't really work out for you, huh?

Touche.

I owe you one for that...

 

[Mutineer]

I look on save in more details and consider some opinions..

1) Oasis should change to galley(chop/whip) and one of settler should run there. Conf missionary too.
2) Revolt to representation/non state religion.
3) Open borders with isy, WB after checking what Isy galley doing should continue explore east.
3) 2 fish should finish granary and whip WB on size 3, WB should go exploring west.
4) WB which is now near north should go explore north.
5) We should use our probably temporal open borders to Isy to send our current missionary to her to explore her land and spread conf to her. If she has our religion we can force her into it, gives as additional diplomatic options for the future.

6) Spread conf to Zara is debatable. we might want to keep zara and isy non-hostile, so she declare on as(In case if she monopolize ivory).

7) is we or Isa settle ivory the only available settling site for zara would be horse/fish. We should turn second settler around and settle house fish now, in order to keep zara small. That will open easy vassal him option for as, Voluntary or other, as he will be below 50% of our land and reduce border tension.

8) I am in favor of working 2 cottages instead of silver, so we grow and can whip next settler faster. It is possible our exploration North or west will discover other sites we want to settle.

9) We need to investigate possibility of gifting city to Toky, So we can befriend him.
so exploration is paramount. I believe our first priority now exploration, second expansion.

Note, Toky and Justian have open borders.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Throw all your ideas at me, guys, and I'll draft a turnset proposal.

 

[babybluepants]

If we could agree on chop-whipping a galley and detouring with a current settler (not at all sure we do yet), it might be good to play a mini-set and see if she settles the island or not. That would obviously affect the TS quite a bit.

 

[mdy]

I think it would be best to save our missionary to spread confunicism to either Zara, or Justinian, whichever one it does not spread to naturally first. Spreading it to Spain is useless, she won't switch naturally, and we won't be able to bribe her into it because she won't have it in enough cities, and even if we spread it to all her cities she will switck back to buddism very quickly. If we want to explore Spain's island we could use the warrior in Askum instead.

I agree with chop/whipping a galley in oasis and turning a settler around. The other should probably go to the rice to support 2 fish/explore to the west. I think we will just have to take the risk that Zara will beat us to the horse/incense, the other sites are much more important. If we put 2chops into a settler we could have it built on T125 without whipping the capital, I don't think whipping can beat this, so we may as well work the silver.

 

[LowtherCastle]

test save updated

fyi, Viagra has +1f and -1h. not sure when that happened.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Do we know if Justy and Toku came from the west or the north? Maybe the northern area is uninhabited except for barbs.

 

[Silu]

1) Oasis should change to galley(chop/whip) and one of settler should run there. Conf missionary too.

Agree otherwise but not the Conf missionary. Useless to spread it to Spain as others pointed out.

2) Revolt to representation/non state religion.

Agree.

3) Open borders with isy, WB after checking what Isy galley doing should continue explore east.

Agree.

4) WB which is now near north should go explore north.

Agree.

5) We should use our probably temporal open borders to Isy to send our current missionary to her to explore her land and spread conf to her. If she has our religion we can force her into it, gives as additional diplomatic options for the future.

Disagree with this, one spread is 1) not certain to succeed 2) will not enable us to bribe him ("not enough of our people follow that faith") as she will be sure to have spread her own religion everywhere.

3) 2 fish should finish granary and whip WB on size 3, WB should go exploring west.

Agree. Exploration is premium, and we need one westwards as the Oasis is stuck building a Galley next so the north WB must scout north.

7) is we or Isa settle ivory the only available settling site for zara would be horse/fish. We should turn second settler around and settle house fish now, in order to keep zara small. That will open easy vassal him option for as, Voluntary or other, as he will be below 50% of our land and reduce border tension.

Hmm. I don't think we need to use our other current Settler for the Horsie Fish, and can use it on the better Rice city. It will take a minimum of 6 turns for Zara's Settler to run into a place it can settle, so we probably get the next one out in time. If he doesn't build one during the next 11 turns we are safe since Bombay's borders will pop before his Settler reaches its destination.

6) Spread conf to Zara is debatable. we might want to keep zara and isy non-hostile, so she declare on as(In case if she monopolize ivory).

This is out of our hands. I agree about not actively spreading Confu to ZY, but it's just a matter of whose autospread rolls the right die first.

8) I am in favor of working 2 cottages instead of silver, so we grow and can whip next settler faster. It is possible our exploration North or west will discover other sites we want to settle.

I can't really say about this, passing up a river silver in Bureu cap is tough. Dunno.

9) We need to investigate possibility of gifting city to Toky, So we can befriend him.
so exploration is paramount. I believe our first priority now exploration, second expansion.

Agree.

Delhi isn't going to build an Aqueduct next, right? What's it going to build? Dump overflow into Settler and grow with a Monastery or Barracks?

Tiny detail, test save has an extra forest 1SW1E of Rice spot. In the real deal the BFC there only has 2 forests. Still I think it could chop one of those for a Fish WB.

BTW, should also move the buster Axe a bit southwest to bust more galley spots. SESE if we settle the Rice now, SE otherwise.

 

[Mutineer]

****5) We should use our probably temporal open borders to Isy to send our current missionary to her to explore her land and spread conf to her. If she has our religion we can force her into it, gives as additional diplomatic options for the future. *****
Disagree with this, one spread is 1) not certain to succeed 2) will not enable us to bribe him ("not enough of our people follow that faith") as she will be sure to have spread her own religion everywhere.

Well, I do not believe Isy spread her religion to all her cities yet. So, most likely it will succeed. She is not in Org religion.
Yes, it will not lest as bribe Isy, but it will let as use spy to achieve same effect.
(that what I mean when I sad diplomatic options, we will have means to force her into our religion). So, I disagree with disagreement, as it based on wrong assumption.

Actually I do believe we should build Aqueduct next in capital, and then HG..

Trowing overflow into settler is bad, as it prevent 3 pop settler whip. All 3 pop settlers whips should go into production. Until we improve capital to we can grow it and make her productive naturally we better to continue 3 pop whips.

we want HG health, engineers points and population to use in all our cities, which would be a lot when we build it.

 

[Silu]

Well, I do not believe Isy spread her religion to all her cities yet. So, most likely it will succeed. She is not in Org religion.
Yes, it will not lest as bribe Isy, but it will let as use spy to achieve same effect.
(that what I mean when I sad diplomatic options, we will have means to force her into our religion). So, I disagree with disagreement, as it based on wrong assumption

You're talking about spychanging Izzy's religion... When we don't have the EP for it... Or a reason for it... Or the tech to build spies... And considering moving the missionary without a replacement buster is a big no-no as it's busting like 10 potential barb Galley spawn tiles... What would we bring there at this point? Using the missionary as a scout might be an useful idea but spreading Confu there is just a huge waste at this point. We can effortlessly spread Confu there at any point later on without sacrificing our now meager resources.

 

[Mutineer]

You're talking about spychanging Izzy's religion... When we don't have the EP for it... Or a reason for it... Or the tech to build spies... And considering moving the missionary without a replacement buster is a big no-no as it's busting like 10 potential barb Galley spawn tiles... What would we bring there at this point? Using the missionary as a scout might be an useful idea but spreading Confu there is just a huge waste at this point. We can effortlessly spread Confu there at any point later on without sacrificing our now meager resources.

Yes, I am talking about using spy, But do not pretend not to understand that I do not mean right now, potentially in the future, remote future. Really, what the point of this useless tirade, do you apply that I am an idiot?

I disagree about effortlessly. Spreading conf later could be very problematic, as Isa will do her thin. Cost of achieving open borders again later could be huge. Same reason apply to Toky. Need to open border to him and spread religion..

 

[Silu]

What's this "thing" that Isabella will do that prevents us from getting OB? Could you be more specific? We will basically always be able to get OB with her, even if she DoWs us, with some SPI shenanigans. Toku is entirely a different matter as you need Pleased instead of Cautious with him for OB.

 

[Mutineer]

I would thin it is evident, she will become the most hated AI.
Usually she is avoiding that by spreading her religion.. but this time Look like she is isolated and very far away from all other AI's. I do not believe Buddhism will get mach spread, as spreading it by galeys try Zara and as and far away... No way!
Isa may be spread it to zara and us and that's it.
I suspect we will have to designate her a punching bag, so we will fall down in her opinion.
I suspect we will close borders ourself from demand of others AI's. We should use this opportunity now, before it is gone or become too complicated!

 

[mushroomshirt]

Wow! As usual there are about 1,000 posts here. Great job, mdy!

I don't have a lot to add other than to say I'm all for doing what it takes to get OB with Izzy temporarily so we can continue exploring. Getting a galley built and diverting a settler to the ivory island seems smart too. There seems to be a growing consensus on these points.

Is there any way to work a monestary into our build plans? OR seems a ways off and it seems like we really would like to get missionaries both to izzy and to just and probably to Zara, too. Perhaps we should have bombay build a monestary for missionaries (there is no commerce there to speak of) while Delhi builds the aqueduct and HG.