SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[mystyfly]

@bbp: My preference regarding aest doesn't seem to be the consensus

@ltc: I'm not sure about your post #974 I'm not looking at it properly now (pre-squash-tournament-beers) but I'm quite sure that only multiples of 8 prevent any rounding losses as commerce is multiplied by 1.5 and research is AFTERWARDS multiplied by 1.75.

you know my opinion, there is no harry to develop cities, we are NOT technically backward.

...compared to the AIs. However we're being compared to the other teams in this game so we don't know how we're doing relative to them. I say this just to keep in mind.


Set looks fine, love our score graph on the progress page

More useful comments tmr, after looking at the save...

 

[babybluepants]

As for the current save, I don't think this has been discussed before but is there any way to get currency in two turns instead of three? Because of the number of oversea trade routes, currency alone should give us around 12-15 coins across the empire. Is it worth re-arranging some city builds to make it possible to get it in two turns?

It's possible with some tile switching and/or building research in Delhi and/or Bombay... Not sure it's worthwhile. Probably a wash: a turn of suboptimal assignments in top cities for a turn of TR's.

Gold: it's nice to have, but 1SE is the only site and it's not really a great city. We can still get crab from our island... IMHO, Sugar is a much better city and I'd be more inclined to chase dye than gold actually. How would we get an extra settler out? All the submitted 110BC saves seem too fast on tech, so maybe Education can afford to wait a bit.

@LC,
It actually seems that Oasis may be ready for a Uni build ahead of another city? Are you thinking of doing that maybe?

 

[Mutineer]

...compared to the AIs. However we're being compared to the other teams in this game so we don't know how we're doing relative to them. I say this just to keep in mind.

It is absolutely does not matter what other team are doing, thought I do not believe any of them doing better then us. There is sertan balance in the game, if you tech too fast you can not trade mach and have to tech more.. but if you expand, you guaranty ability to react on game situations and you will tech faster. Right now expansion is very cheap and we have opportunities..

 

[LowtherCastle]

There is sertan balance in the game, if you tech too fast you can not trade mach and have to tech more..

No truer words were ever spoken.

There's a logistical problem with settling sugar, gold and dyes: We only have one galley. How do you propose we deal with that?

And there's another problem with Dyes: Protecting it from barb axes. In my tests, my exploring warrior gets eaten by a barb axe about 10 turns from now.

 

[Mutineer]

we have one axe, we probably should have send it there. Clearly for sugar and west we will need second Galey. One galey needed to stay near ivory. for example, if buddism spread there we would want to make missionary.. if we want to make friends with Isa. workers need to be moved, et.
We clearly need 2 galeys.

If we grow 2 fish to size 6 and whip settler there for max overflow we probably could build galey from that.

 

[shyuhe]

I'd rather build the second galley elsewhere, for example in rice or oasis. 2fish really needs to get started on GPP production.

@mutineer - good point about having tech trades available. Unfortunately for us though, I'm not sure how smart the AI are in this game at emperor level. Is there any tech in particular that you think we'll be able to trade for? Monarchy comes to mind but I can't think of anything else right now.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Suppose we say that Delhi has already spawned a civ with 6 cities and 1 settler. Now it's job is growing, building aque+HG+forge+market+uni+Oxford and spamming and working cottages. Two Fish's job is growing and spamming GSes. Let's supose that new settlers and the galley come from somewhere else. Where?

Bombay already has a library, so all it has to provide is a uni later on. We can chop settlers there.
Ivory is not scheduled as a uni city, so it could actually start out building a galley rather than the granary. The axe needs about 15 turns to board the galley at Aksum, so if the galley is done by then, along with a dyes settler, then that would work. (not tested)

MAI and Izzy are both very close to the dyes, so they could be gone next turn or not for a long time, we don't know. All we can do is try for it.

--------------

Anyway, for my turnset, I need to decide three things, basically:
1. Bombay: build worker or settler next?
2. Civics: switch to Caste or Castes+OrgRel? OrgRel costs us a coin per turn and I doubt we're switching to Confucianism in the next 5t but maybe. We need a minimum of 10t to circumnavigate right now, so our wb should be through Toku's culture in less than 10t, but do we wan to bring that wb back to clams or crabs or have it continue exploring?
3. Ivory: granary or galley?

 

[babybluepants]

1) This is the settler we'd need for Sugar, right? I've been doing that, and I assumed you were. I think we are short one worker at least, but that settler needs to be out soon to beat Zara.
2) Since we need to switch to Caste, are we settled on Two Fish's build order? mdy was missing a WB, you're not building LH. Neither seems ideal on the surface...
3) Ideally we could get WB (clam), Granary and LH there first, but if we're not gonna be in Slavery for next while, maybe galley's ok. This is also probably the place to build the dye settler? I thought we had actually decided on this being the sixth Oxford city instead of Oasis, but it seems best to use for other things.

Barb galleys do show up by 110 BC in testing, as well. That really depends on how well Saladin fogbusts, I guess.

 

[mystyfly]

Ivory is not scheduled as a uni city

Which cities are, then? I thought it was Delhi, bombay, 2fish, rice, marble and ivory... You're not talking of oasis, are you... That city is crap compared to all the others.

1. Settler. Get those cities out and ensure we get that land. We can manage without the workers by working seafood, oasis can be whipping out WBs now. One worker will have to accompany the settler to sugar though as this city otherwise is paralyzed for like 20 turns. I'm still against chasing dyes, even more so now as there's another civ. I'm not sure how strong we'll be until we start any conquests but I'm sure we can't withstand 2 AI attacks at once before we have a proper army. Plus that city would load aggression and dislike of 2 AIs (-> no trades).

2. I don't see us switching to any religion in the next 5 turns so OR is just wasted money. I don't mind switching to caste in 1t but not for too long...

3. Granary. I don't see the need for a second galley given our drought of production if we don't settle a gold city and for that we neither have the settler nor a good site to settle.


Regarding currency, we're at 665/936 and making +96bpt. If I switch 2fish to work one more coast tile (+2c) we get currency in 2t. 2t * 98bpt = 196b, 665 + 196 = 861 != 936...

Next turn the fish is fishnetted at 2fish crazyeye getting us +2C there.

Running a scientist or even citizen in any city next turn should give us enough beakers to finish currency somehow, I'd do that. Definitely worth it. We'll just have to lower the slider to 90% most likely...

 

[LowtherCastle]

It actually seems that Oasis may be ready for a Uni build ahead of another city? Are you thinking of doing that maybe?

Yes. mdy showed that Oasis works fine for uni. He had it producing 14hpt and he saved one chop.

1) This is the settler we'd need for Sugar, right? I've been doing that, and I assumed you were. I think we are short one worker at least, but that settler needs to be out soon to beat Zara.
2) Since we need to switch to Caste, are we settled on Two Fish's build order? mdy was missing a WB, you're not building LH. Neither seems ideal on the surface...
3) Ideally we could get WB (clam), Granary and LH there first, but if we're not gonna be in Slavery for next while, maybe galley's ok. This is also probably the place to build the dye settler? I thought we had actually decided on this being the sixth Oxford city instead of Oasis, but it seems best to use for other things.

Barb galleys do show up by 110 BC in testing, as well. That really depends on how well Saladin fogbusts, I guess.

1. Yes. If we want the wkr, rather now than later. It slows the settler down and probably forces us to close borders with Zara, which I think is risky business. How do we get the Ivory wkr back to the mainland? How do we anything to the east?

2. The Two Fish lh gives us less than the wb if we want to max our gpps, because the only tiles we work are the 4 resources. Hence the lh only gives us +2fpt at a cost of 90h. The wb gives us +3fpt at a cost of 45h. Obviously, this is a short-term solution, meant to get the GS for Philo asap. Later, when our happy cap is higher, we'll need and poprush the lh.

3. Ideally, Ivory builds granary, then Moai, if we want it there. Under the circumstances, it might be better to view Ivory as a workhorse, getting our galley. I don't know really. If we never get the dyes city, then it's probably the wrong solution.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Which cities are, then? I thought it was Delhi, bombay, 2fish, rice, marble and ivory... You're not talking of oasis, are you... That city is crap compared to all the others.

1. Settler. Get those cities out and ensure we get that land. We can manage without the workers by working seafood, oasis can be whipping out WBs now. One worker will have to accompany the settler to sugar though as this city otherwise is paralyzed for like 20 turns. I'm still against chasing dyes, even more so now as there's another civ. I'm not sure how strong we'll be until we start any conquests but I'm sure we can't withstand 2 AI attacks at once before we have a proper army. Plus that city would load aggression and dislike of 2 AIs (-> no trades).

2. I don't see us switching to any religion in the next 5 turns so OR is just wasted money. I don't mind switching to caste in 1t but not for too long...

3. Granary. I don't see the need for a second galley given our drought of production if we don't settle a gold city and for that we neither have the settler nor a good site to settle.


Regarding currency, we're at 665/936 and making +96bpt. If I switch 2fish to work one more coast tile (+2c) we get currency in 2t. 2t * 98bpt = 196b, 665 + 196 = 861 != 936...

Next turn the fish is fishnetted at 2fish crazyeye getting us +2C there.

Running a scientist or even citizen in any city next turn should give us enough beakers to finish currency somehow, I'd do that. Definitely worth it. We'll just have to lower the slider to 90% most likely...

mdy's save showed that Oasis will do fine for a uni.

1. If we can get by without another Bombay worker then it can go settler-settler and chop them fairly quickly. Then the question is, send it to Gold or Dyes? BUt that for the next turnset.

2. Okay.

3. Settling Gold City means no galley to transport the Ivory worker to the mainland when he's done. That's a seroius problem. As Mutineer says, we'll need a second galley anyway. I hate postponing Ivory's development, but I think we simply have to view Ivory as a workhorse for the time being. Oasis makes a couple wbs, Ivory makes a galley. So it goes sometimes. Ivory will speed up later on anyway.

I'll try to get currency in 2t.

 

[mystyfly]

I'm definitely against settling both gold and dyes. Gold city is not a good city (unless you find some more seafood) and dyes draws a bullseye on our back for both izzy and MAI. I'm curious to see who the AI is... While having (more) border tension means we might provoce DOWs it also means we have worse relations and less trade opportunities, more demands, etc etc.

Thinking about demands, this might not be too bad unless the demands are big monopoly techs, they speed up AI teching and avoid them from teching techs we know anyway...

 

[babybluepants]

1. If we can get by without another Bombay worker then it can go settler-settler and chop them fairly quickly.

If we send one of the Delhi workers to Ivory and use the new Bombay one to chop, how do we keep up with Delhi's growth (mines, cottages)? I've been wondering about this...

 

[mystyfly]

IIRC delhi is 3 pop (or 4?) away from -cap atm. We should get 2 mines or 1 mine and 1 cottage done by the time it grows another 2 pop I think, if we need to stagnate growth we can either employ a scientist or we can partbuild a worker. Not sure what is more preferable, depends on how we want delhi regarding GPs... if we employ a scientist we reduce chances of GE however we speed up it's GPP-generation...

 

[LowtherCastle]

If we send one of the Delhi workers to Ivory and use the new Bombay one to chop, how do we keep up with Delhi's growth (mines, cottages)? I've been wondering about this...

We can't. Precisely what I was checking just now. Here's an alternative workout:

1. Delhi/Two Fish do their thing.
2. Bombay: settler-settler
3. Ivory: worker

This delays the need for worker transport at Ivory by about 13t.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'm definitely against settling both gold and dyes. Gold city is not a good city (unless you find some more seafood) and dyes draws a bullseye on our back for both izzy and MAI. I'm curious to see who the AI is... While having (more) border tension means we might provoce DOWs it also means we have worse relations and less trade opportunities, more demands, etc etc.

Thinking about demands, this might not be too bad unless the demands are big monopoly techs, they speed up AI teching and avoid them from teching techs we know anyway...

Joao (99.44% sure MAI) won't DoW at Pleased. I'm more concerned about the barbs, but I guess we could upgrade a warrior to axe. Imo, both gold and dyes are completely worth having, especially dyes for the VC. Gold can just build a lh and work coastal tiles, no probs. The question is, how long before Sal will try to settle it? It's pretty close to his capital, I think, so pretty soon.

IIRC delhi is 3 pop (or 4?) away from -cap atm. We should get 2 mines or 1 mine and 1 cottage done by the time it grows another 2 pop I think, if we need to stagnate growth we can either employ a scientist or we can partbuild a worker. Not sure what is more preferable, depends on how we want delhi regarding GPs... if we employ a scientist we reduce chances of GE however we speed up it's GPP-generation...

I think working both mines slows down the growth enough all the way to pop12 or so, assuming we are in Conf and that was testing without the gold +1(+1forge).

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay, guys, I made up my mind as per post #995 and I'm playing on now. Thanks for the patience and discussion. Sorry it's taken me so long. I just coudln't get my arms around this thing.

 

[mystyfly]

Well, cities "being worth" it, the question is how much building these settlers now slows down our current cities.
Joao not DOWing at pleased, well, how easy is it to have him on pleased when we get the close border and religion -ves? Knowing joao's religion would really help and imo justify switching to buddhism as our "main" religion. In that case it's much less risky to settle the dyes.

Slightly the same with gold, it costs a lot to build a settler and move him there now, we get additional -ves and have a city that will be very hard to defend.

Those cities surely have their benefits but I'm just unsure that they're worth it. If I had to pick either gold or dyes to settle, it would surely be dyes.


Agree with the mines slowing down delhi. I don't expect us to have to work scientists or build workers in delhi to avoid unhappiness.


edit: When will you stop? After meeting MAI? When you manage currency in 2t?

 

[babybluepants]

We can't. Precisely what I was checking just now. Here's an alternative workout:

1. Delhi/Two Fish do their thing.
2. Bombay: settler-settler
3. Ivory: worker

This delays the need for worker transport at Ivory by about 13t.

Not sure I like that. I think the worker transport to Ivory is easily worthwhile.
If we put just one chop into Bombay (the SSW one), we should get the first settler in time for the available galley transport to Sugar (assuming the planned drop off Izzy warrior -> transport worker plan). Maybe we can somehow get the next settler out of Ivory with some delay?

 

[babybluepants]

@mysty,
I'm also kinda against gold - it's just not a very good city. Dye? Not sure, frankly. Like I said before, I'd be perfectly ok without it, but it is a required resource. If we can get a settler/galley pair without sacrificing development towards Oxford, it's worth it, I think.

Edit: with this we hit 1000 posts (in just over a month)!