SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[babybluepants]

Boys! I was away for 4 days, and there isn't even a new page in this thread. What's going on?

shyuhe, I guess it's either me or Mutineer. I can take it. Will have a look at the save tonight and post something.

@Mutineer, I don't get your plan for GE. If we actually want one, I think we should go for the best odds. Otherwise, just run an Eng in Two Fish and hope for some blind luck. Building forges in Marble and Rice will be tough without Slavery/OR and it won't even give us any kind of odds. Also, I can't imagine pushing GP's out of all those cities working with as many as possible in Two Fish.

 

[babybluepants]

Looks like Plastic Ducks had their whipping spree some 20t later than us? They've probably grabbed a bit more land, though...

 

[shyuhe]

Maybe the Ducks managed to grab the silk/dyes on the eastern continent?

I think whoever can pick it up should go and post a PPP - we're short handed right now

edit: No, the Ducks used the draft. Their power just shot up a LOT over the last set. Looks like they're going to use military for something.

 

[mdy]

If we actually want one, I think we should go for the best odds. Otherwise, just run an Eng in Two Fish and hope for some blind luck. Building forges in Marble and Rice will be tough without Slavery/OR and it won't even give us any kind of odds.

I agree, generating an extra GP in the capital will more than make up for losing a couple of pop.

Let's focus EPs on japan for now to see his demos. Are we going to steal anything from zara? We have some 500 EPs on him or so.

I don't think we are going to be able to steal anything worthwhile, so we may as well focus them on Japan.

Remember the UN has a +300% rush cost penalty.

I thought wonders only had a 100% cost penalty for rushing, so we would "only" need 9000 gold.

Are we planning to finish the shweda paya? I Don't Think So. But wanna check anyway

This depends on whether we can take the fur city without building too many units there. If we can we may as well complete it, if not more units are more important.

 

[Silu]

I thought wonders only had a 100% cost penalty for rushing, so we would "only" need 9000 gold.

Rush cost penalties are building dependent. No non-wonder has a penalty at all, national wonders have +50%, early wonders +100%, late wonders +200% and "game winning wonders" (AP, UN and the Space Elevator) have +300%.

 

[babybluepants]

Do we want the incense city or the deer city first?

Do we want peace between Toku and Zara? Toku wants CS right now. Once we complete the GM trade mission we can pay him in cash, but I don't know how much we'd wanna play.

 

[mystyfly]

I don't like giving away cash and don't wanna partly unlock samurais. I'd hold off with bribing for peace for now until we get a better opportunity.

Thanks for that clarification silu

Who is going to play next?

 

[mdy]

Do we want the incense city or the deer city first?

Deer first should get us more extra pop.

Do we want peace between Toku and Zara? Toku wants CS right now. Once we complete the GM trade mission we can pay him in cash, but I don't know how much we'd wanna play.

I think that we do need peace with Zara. Unlocking Samurai for him would not be so bad as it would allow him to conquer more cities quicker. My only concern about this is that it would put him one tech closer to liberalism. An alternative would be to bribe him with literature+compass+ gold (provided he does not want too much).

 

[babybluepants]

Deer first should get us more extra pop.

Ok.

I think that we do need peace with Zara. Unlocking Samurai for him would not be so bad as it would allow him to conquer more cities quicker. My only concern about this is that it would put him one tech closer to liberalism. An alternative would be to bribe him with literature+compass+ gold (provided he does not want too much).

That sounds like a good alternative. We'll get Compass in 2t, so I'll try it. He's currently willing to give 80g with CS, so we might not need to spend any/much cash with Compass+Lit.

I'm also more worried about getting him closer to Lib. Samurai wouldn't be so bad.

 

[babybluepants]

I think we need a clear plan for gpp. Not sure if we had anything more up to date than shyuhe's from a while back. Issues:

• Are we getting a GS for bulbing or another GM from Two Fish?
• Grow Rice to size 14 asap or run scientists right away?
• Delhi tile / spec assignments.

I'll farm the desert @ Rice next, but I'm not sure we wanna farm over that cottage. We get even number food as it is (7 specialists @ size 14).

Should we use the next missionary on Gondar? The ETA on the one after is 7t, and Zara looks like he's getting Theo in 6. That would delay getting Buddhist spread to Rice.

Do we want a forge in Ivory? It looks like it would pay off in approximately 50t, but it would delay Buddhist spread substantially.

 

[Mutineer]

1) We now on should produce only Merchants with chance of GE from 2 fish. Hopefully previous people finished Market there? Some scientists pollution is fine, but main focus should be on producing GM's.

It really upset me when people build wealth and ignore previous builds there. You all accuse me in not follow team strategy, But in each in every of my save I finished all queued items and all queued GP's.


2) Other potential GP producing city should run scientists with chance of GE.
IN order to that we need to spread appropriate religion there and revolt to org rel/slavery for 5 turns to whip forges. Short revolt to org religion will now slow as down. 2 Fish has +200% even with out pacifism and it still can run 3 specialists (5 with Market if it is build).

3) let Zara be in war with Toky, we will be switching to Buddhism and if he is in war we are safe from wardec from him. It will be embracing to loose city to Zara surprise attack before we switch him to Buddhism.

4) we should stop attempts to produce GP in capital and make use of Oxford strategy. If you actually do calculation you will see that we will have to stagnate capital for the rest of game in order to produce GP there or slow down our total GP generation. I would rather have 2 more gp's, in form of GM's, then 50% chance to get GE. Working only 3-4 cottages and silver mine is ridiculous. Each unit of population = 300 gold from GM mission and actual use of oxford.

Please make calculations by yourself before dismissing that! How mach research would be lost?
What will be production capacity of capital at the end of the game? NO, attempts to produce GP in capital are ridiculous. it would have only 50% chance to be GE and you giving up too mach just for 50% chance to fail again.
Capital should work all river site ties cottages, silver mine and food ties. It might even be a good idea to farm 1-2 non river ties to let it grow more, as we will benefit from it size at the end of game. (GM missions yield, GE production depends on capital/city GE used size).

 

[LowtherCastle]

Each unit of population = 300 gold from GM mission

No. Not even close. To get 2850 gold, we need something like this:

Mecca pop16 ... Delhi pop18​

The next jump to 3150g will be very difficult, iirc.

I agree we should go for the GE in every city possible. We should go for max possibility in Delhi. No brainer.

 

[LowtherCastle]

IF we decide to run slavery for 5t, would it be possible to poprush either granary or lh in Deer City?

 

[babybluepants]

As far as I know, this is our last GP estimate:

750 GPP - Delhi (GE)
900 GPP - 2-fish (GM)
1050 GPP - 2-fish (GS) -- PP
1300 GPP - marble (GS) --astro (self-tech rest)
1500 GPP - 2-fish (GS) -- SM (self-tech rest)
1800 GPP - 2-fish (GS) -- physics
2100 GPP - Delhi (GE/GS) -- expect to use him as the VC GPP
2400 GPP - marble (GS) -- physics
2700 GPP - 2-fish (GS) -- electricity (and use physics GS as well); born T+94 or so.

We have another 35730b to Lib-Radio. 5 GS bulbs (the last two of these GP's may be too slow) would reduce that to 23k. At 100% research, we should be able to do that in approximately 30t. Our current gpt loss is 110. That will increase with more cities, pop and inflation, ofc. Still, 30t shouldn't be more than 4000g? A GM mission right now is 2550g. Maybe someone else can check the math, 'cause I do have a tendency to make mistakes. We could also probably take in 1k from tech trades (Compass, Optics...) easily, if we wanted to.

I was assuming we'd want another GM but no more. It would be good for contingency, research through MM and starting a rush-buy fund.

I am strongly for another shot at GE from Delhi, as I argued before.

Also, I just thought of this: if we're planning to run 100% science from here with cash-bombs, do we even need a market in Delhi.

 

[babybluepants]

I looked at the graphs again. Ducks seem to have actually whipped up an army. Their power went up by 166k soldiers in 15t. That would be about 10 maces and 10 cats, as a for instance.

 

[Silu]

I assume you (general you ) do, but just to make sure: I guess your GPP calculations include a switch from Paci to Theo when the end nears to get the extra diplo?

 

[mdy]

As far as I know, this is our last GP estimate:
Quote:
Originally Posted by shyuhe
750 GPP - Delhi (GE)
900 GPP - 2-fish (GM)
1050 GPP - 2-fish (GS) -- PP
1300 GPP - marble (GS) --astro (self-tech rest)
1500 GPP - 2-fish (GS) -- SM (self-tech rest)
1800 GPP - 2-fish (GS) -- physics
2100 GPP - Delhi (GE/GS) -- expect to use him as the VC GPP
2400 GPP - marble (GS) -- physics
2700 GPP - 2-fish (GS) -- electricity (and use physics GS as well); born T+94 or so.

This does not take into account the fact that we need 4 extra GP's on the fur. If we take account of this I get:

Immediately hire 2 scientists in the capital. Beakerwise this should be more efficient due to the extra GP, but reduce the capitals population by about 2 around T55-60. Also fire scientists in 2 fish and hire merchants.

T+8: First GP generated in 2 fish. If it is a merchant fire merchants in favour of scientists. If it is anything else fire engineer and hire merchants.

T+16: Second GP in marble

T+22: Third GP in 2 fish . If the first GP was an enginner hire 8 scientists. Otherwise 7 scientists and one engineer.

T+33: Fourth GP generated in the capital. If we get a GE and are still running an engineer in 2 fish hire another scientist there instead. We may need to delay the GP in rice city to generate the 4th GP here depending when we spread Budhism there.

around T39: Fifth GP in rice city (may need to delay 2 fish slightly depending on when buddishm spreads.)

around T43: sixth GP generated in 2 fish.

We already have an artist, scientist, and will get another scientist with physics for 9 in total. The last will probably be too late to do anything except to start a golden age or to build the U.N. if it is an engineer. 4 GP's will go on the fur, and there type is irrelevant. Of the remaining 4, 1 should be an engineer, 1 should be a merchant for deficit research, and the other 2 would ideally be scientists for bulbing. As we already have 1, and will get another with physics this is guaranteed. 1 Can bulb astronomy, the other electricity. We will then need around 40T to do the remainder of our research.

 

[mdy]

1) We now on should produce only Merchants with chance of GE from 2 fish. Hopefully previous people finished Market there? Some scientists pollution is fine, but main focus should be on producing GM's.

It really upset me when people build wealth and ignore previous builds there. You all accuse me in not follow team strategy, But in each in every of my save I finished all queued items and all queued GP's.

I agree with running merchants there till we get a GM, however we have not finished building a market there as it would be almost worthless - The GM's+ AI trades should give us all the gold we need. We have been building wealth there to help keep the slider up, there will be no point in doing this after the trade mission so I think we should start building a mace there.

3) let Zara be in war with Toky, we will be switching to Buddhism and if he is in war we are safe from wardec from him. It will be embracing to loose city to Zara surprise attack before we switch him to Buddhism.

This shouldn't be a problem, Buddishm should be spread to Zara's last city on T+3, which is also the turn that we will have spread buddishm to 2 fish. We will theefore revolt within a turn or two of each other. Our power is also higher than Zara's, so the risk of war is effectively zero.

If you actually do calculation you will see that we will have to stagnate capital for the rest of game in order to produce GP there or slow down our total GP generation.

I have done the calculation and estimate that if we hire 3 specialists until the GP is generated, the capital will be at size 16 on T+55, and 18 if we don't hire any specialists. Giving up a GP for a pop gain of two does not seem sensible to me. In the 3 specialist scenario we would still be able to work 7 riverside cottages. We do not have to sacrifice any GP's in any other cities to do it. The rice GP might need to be delayed by a few turns, but as that will be sent to the fur, this does not matter.

IN order to that we need to spread appropriate religion there and revolt to org rel/slavery for 5 turns to whip forges. Short revolt to org religion will now slow as down. 2 Fish has +200% even with out pacifism and it still can run 3 specialists (5 with Market if it is build).

We have a 66% chance of an engineer without doing this, Even with an immediate revolt to slavery/organised religion this would only rise to about 73%. I'm not sure if this is worth the cost.

 

[babybluepants]

Does bribing Toku out of the war cause a WE trade minus?

 

[mdy]

Does bribing Toku out of the war cause a WE trade minus?

silsily get

Doesn't matter. With the same religion we will easily get Zara's voted regardless.