SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

[Bugg123]

I think which way we get culture will depend on how many religions we can get and what sites are available.

The GP farm doesn't neccessarily have to be a legendary city, but it could (or in jesusin's Vanilla games allways was.. but that was more on quicker speeds). Let's see what's in the fog.

You're definately right about theaters.

Found a thread that definately describes better than what I could the "new" way to get culture (I do realize it's not the same settings, and that it's deity and involves early warring) : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7538868&postcount=294

 

[dingding]

Some map analysis :

I know it’s not a regular map but it’s however interesting to look closer at it:

1) 35 turns, no AI to our west and neither to Zara’s east, that being said that we are probably – if it’s not a bad trick of the map creator – in a semi-isolated start.

=> 1) to settle a warrior on the coast to wait for other AIs’ exploring ship. To prioticize a coastal city and build 1 or 2 ships to explore.
=> 2) it implies a cross continental war to grab the fur.

2) No much space to the west of Zara. (to be confirmed)

=> he’ll probably settle the second city by the river (2W of the cow I imagine) and we don’t have a lot of interest settling the second city here. From this point, it’s valid to settle the 2nd city 1S or 2S of the stone, then 3rd one by the cow of the north if a blockage if needed.

3) No much space to our east.

=> good to fogbusting there especially by the river.

About wonders:
SH:
I doubt if we can really finish it with stone (it takes (9 +3) x 150% = 18 turns to build a quarry on a desert) and there are certainly two or more zealots on the map already so less chance to succeed. Maybe it’s good for money, but moreover:

1) To research two more techs and to put an amount of hammers on the SH will hurt our strategy (beeline the Oracle for CoL) and Rex.
2) Hard to deal with the GP.

Briefly speaking I’m against it. If a WE is needed, we can try it with TGW and mids, but I prefer stick to our strategy on a no-reload-allowed game. Or we can discuss changing our strategy now and forgetting the Oracle.

 

[Bugg123]

@kossin:

Sent a PM to AlanH about the getting of saves.

Got this reply:

As long as you have not made any moves or changes to the situation, and only looked at the game, there is no problem. You don't need to upload the game, as you have not changed it.

Just to end that part on my end.

Will try the testgame before commenting more on our situation.

 

[kossin]

^^Perfect.

Here's the test game.

I think I've replicated everything exactly how it ended up. I let the other AIs be random as we have not enough information on them.

EDIT: I forgot to delete Zara's original units however >.<

 

[kossin]

Here's my 15 turns take:

Since we moved to settle the Silver, we'll want to be working it ASAP. Also, since we're going for stone, we'll want extra workforce. It's 16 worker turns for quarry+road so extra worker > earlier settler.

iht = inherited turn

iht0 [t36 3100BC] worker moves 1S to plains forest and chops 1 turn, revolt to slavery, start on TW

iht1 [t37 3075BC] worker moves 2S to riverside grass and farms 1 turn

iht2 [t38 3050BC] Delhi size 4 [2F1H tile], warrior done, start on 2nd worker[7], first worker moves to silver and starts mine [6]

iht3 [t39 3025BC] n/a

iht4 [t40 3000BC] n/a

iht5 [t41 2975BC] n/a

iht6 [t42 2950BC] n/a

iht7 [t43 2925BC] silver mine done, switch citizen to it if not on governor

iht8 [t44 2900BC] send worker NE (1S of Delhi) and start chopping [5]

iht9 [t45 2875BC] 2nd worker done, move NW (forested plains) and start chopping [4 - we chopped it 1 turn so both forests will be done on same turn], start on settler, TW done > Masonry

iht10 [t46 2850BC] n/a

iht11 [t47 2825BC] n/a

iht12 [t48 2800BC] finish chops

iht13 [t49 2775BC] 2 turns left on settler - we can whip now or wait 1 more turn for max hammers into a 3rd worker, 2nd worker starts road on corn [3], 1st worker moves 1N then NE on grass mine to chop

iht14 [t50 2750BC] if settler done, start moving him, otherwise whip>worker, first worker chops [5]

iht15 [t51 2725BC] if we whipped settler on t13, start on warrior in Delhi to grow, it will be finished with chop from first worker in 4 turns.

iht13-14 if we whip settler on iht13 we gain 1 turn of growth but pay 1 more turn of upkeep and lose a bit of overflow. I have to play more times a bit further to make up my mind.

~~~

Also tried settler rather than worker but the second city is just not good enough unless we put copper in BFC which defeats the idea imo. I also vote for 1S of Stone as Delhi will need both corns to keep growing from the whip.

~~~
t49 vs t50 settler whip comparison -> to t60

t49 whip has 1 more beaker (145 vs 144 on Meditation, 2 turns to go), 3 more food in Bombay (24/33 vs 21/33) but 8 less hammers in Delhi.

Both have 2 gold in bank+1gpt, 3 extra warriors and 1 extra mine in Delhi, the quarry will be done in 2 turns, +2 turns for road

~~~
Tried another option:
whip 2nd worker with a chop rather than mining gold right away on t39 > overflow settler, then switch to warriors for growth

By t60: 131/186 beakers in Meditation 3 turns to go, 46 overflow hammers (92 into either SH,TGW or Myds), 0 gold and breaking even. No extra mine yet
Bombay 24/33 food

 

[Duckweed]

Regarding the stone site and SH attempt

As dingding told, we need 2 techs (TW and Masonry). However I don't think these two techs are extra, but necessary. TW is needed next to get the trade route regardless we want the stone or not. Hooking up the stone enables us the start stone wonders to get failed wonder cash and also we can put hammers on Mids as early as possible.

Culture from SH, it's 20 culture before 1000BC and will contribute for ~150 turns. That's 3500 even without multiplier. When count multiplier, it will contribute >6000 culture in total, that's almost an artist. But my main thought for attempting SH is for the free monuments. For 90 Hammers only, we get free monuments for every new cities, why not? The major reason we don't consider it in Deity is because we just have no chance and land grabbing is very tense in deity. But in emperor and especially in this map, those 2 hindrance do not exist. SH is very valuable to get. Moreover, even we fail to get it, we get the double failed cash to help our rexing. Hence it's a win win attempt. Last, I still think diplomatic win is probably a better choice because high possibility of war needed. Don't worry about the religious difference. We can adopt FR 5 turns before the UN resolution and then switch back to religious civic so that we are still qualify of the rule.

 

[Duckweed]

@ kossin, Thanks for the test map.

How about
1. 2 pop whip the worker immediately
2. let the overflow go to settler
3. start SH to let city grow to size 3
4. resume settler, (workers chop the settler and road to the stone site ? need test)

 

[kossin]

Yes war is most likely needed, however how much warring exactly do we need is the question. If we can capture the needed resources with Maces+Trebs, then culture is probably faster.
We'll just have to see this one out.

I'll try your suggested approach and post the results.

I didn't grow on SH in my attempts as warriors seemed better for fogbusting and to acquire the 4 we'd need for the victory. It's certainly possible to do it this way. I'll edit in the results in a bit.

EDIT:
Results on t60:
128 beakers on Meditation
Delhi size 5 on t60, can whip soon, silver mine and 3 chops in a forest (delay while growing to size 3 and waiting for TW)
Bombay 30/33 food Quarry done+roaded, fp farm done on t63
84 hammers on SH but no extra warriors beside the one in production at the start.
2 gold @ +1gpt

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Thanks for the test game, Kossin ! That's great !
Minor omission : a forest 1NW of Delhi's silver.

Duckweed, sure, the free monuments are nice and SH is cheap, but you make it sound there is no opportunity cost in using our *whole* working force during 10+ turns to acquire stone. At 3H, the tile is almost unusable, by the way. We could mine 2 forested hills in Delhi during that time.
I should have guessed you planned on teching Masonry next and not Pottery. Hahaha ! How naive of me


--> That makes some crucial debattable points :
- Stonehenge for completion or for cash. Cash appeals me more but I can't really argue with the culture points. My main argument is that cash is easier to get since we can also get some from the Great Wall. Also, between RExing, The Oracle and the Mids, I feel our agenda is already very charged. Could add that caste artists are almost as good as free monuments (they come later, granted).
- 2nd city placement. 1S of stone vs 2S. If we go for Stonehenge for real, 1S is obvious. If we want failure cash, then it would depend on how we could settle westwards. Foodwise, both sites are comparable. 1S is a bit better for commerce but 2S is up and running much faster (copper and more forests)
- Next tech after The Wheel. Masonry vs Pottery (overflow hammers in wonders earlier but w/out multipliers vs overflow in granary + possibility of floodplains cottage). With happy cap at 6 in Delhi, I value highly the granary.

 

[Duckweed]

I played an actual test run.

In brief. Can get SH in turn 64 with starvation in last turn or in turn 65 (2375BC, very decent date in emperor)

Turn 42 -- 1 pop whip of 2nd worker
43 -- start settler
46 -- Wheel in
49 -- settler out with 2 chops, start 3rd worker
51 -- Settled Bombay, start a warrior
54 -- Masonry in, road to stone done and 1 worker started quarry
55 -- 3rd worker out, send to the grassland hill, Delhi started 3rd settler
60 -- Stone connected, Delhi starts SH
65 -- SH done with 2 chops.

 

[Duckweed]

Yes war is most likely needed, however how much warring exactly do we need is the question. If we can capture the needed resources with Maces+Trebs, then culture is probably faster.

I checked the fastest date of culture and UN win in BOTMs, most of the culture win were after 1700AD, although one of the noble game was achieved in 1050AD. Your empire has to focus on monasteries, religious and culture building and GPs all from beginning. The teching usually stops after Lib to Nat. If war is involved, I doubt culture win is achievable before 1500 AD. If we can grab Oracle and mids as planned, I think we should be able to get OU online ~500AD and we should be no problem to build UN before 1500AD. I change my mind and prefer to cottage the capital since there are another 2 great GP farm sites spotted.

 

[kossin]

Did something similar but I can't seem to reproduce it now -_- SH was done by t62 with no chops.
Added a farm in Delhi to get it done but I can't seem to get the right micro now.

 

[Duckweed]

Could add that caste artists are almost as good as free monuments (they come later, granted).

Good point! I no longer insist on getting SH.

 

[kossin]

As I see it, the next big decision is:

1S of stone+Masonry vs. 2S of stone+Pottery

If we want cottages in Delhi then perhaps we shouldn't wait too long. Need to run longer tests I guess.

Tomorrow, that is.

 

[Duckweed]

Did something similar but I can't seem to reproduce it now -_- SH was done by t62 with no chops.
Added a farm in Delhi to get it done but I can't seem to get the right micro now.

Did you build SH before connecting the stone? I let Delhi kept on producing 3rd worker and 3rd settler before stone connected.

 

[Bugg123]

My take till T65 (and beyond)

Research path : The Wheel -> Polytheism -> Priesthood (should finish no later than T65)

Warriors: Our cornered warrior could easily not survive 2 lions on the same turn, so I'm dancing him around taking them on 1 at a time. Ends up fogbusting north. 2nd warrior moves SE then back up NW and fogbusts that area. 3rd warrior completes fogbust west. A couple more could bust the NE part, and we're pretty well covered.

Worker moves to mine silver (move, chop, move farm, move mine). I want to work this silver as much as possible.

Delhi starts (T39) and 2pop whips worker T40. Overflow into settler. Build Warrior.

Mine completes a turn before we can work it. Time Warrior to complete same turn Delhi reaches size 4. Start settler. 2 options on settler imo. Either 1 more chop into it or 1 pop whip. Would like to preserve forests for wonders, but idk. If we chop one more into it, we can start 2nd settler right away at size 4 (will finish ~T65).

2nd worker moves NW to hill and starts a mine (11 turns) -> Goes into settler.
1st worker completes road to city 2 (2S stone).

Both workers find their way to copper in time for city 2 (T54) and mine it. City 2 builds a combination of SH and military (need 5-6 military total for 100% fogbust in our area).

At T65 we have:
2 Workers, 3 settlers. Writing in 12-13, started Oracle Delhi, Building SH in Bombay (for cash). Researched TW, Poly, Priest, started Writing.

Playing on from there, I get oracle 1975BC and Pyramids 1350BC (T106). Time to build library in Delhi in between wonders if we want to, or worker/settler (Edit: I lean towards extra worker). Also getting a GS from Bombay by this time if we want it .. could be delayed. Point is to not really get a Priest from Delhi as our first (unless we want theo as well). Spread religion to Zara, and he'll be a happy camper (probably).

Techpath post T65: Writing -> Masonry (workers start on stone ASAP, borders have expanded from confu holy city) -> Monotheism (we can get judaism + OR helps .. decent option for culture) -> Fishing -> Pottery. No need earlier maybe since delhi can't work cottages while building wonders. (Could do Pottery->Mono->Fish) 3rd site could use it (if it's marble+stone+cow+floodplains), but this city could also build worker first, then WB to explore.

After that need AH before going Aest->Drama-Music maybe... unless we want alpha.

 

[Bugg123]

Played a bit more.. Not sure you actually need to go with Poly. Wonders go really late (at least in the testgame), and Mediation is more useful right away. Saves a few turns of research early allowing for Pottery->Mono.

Won't neccessarily give Oracle sooner, but do we need that?

 

[kossin]

Played a bit more.. Not sure you actually need to go with Poly. Wonders go really late (at least in the testgame), and Mediation is more useful right away. Saves a few turns of research early allowing for Pottery->Mono.

Won't neccessarily give Oracle sooner, but do we need that?

By my estimation, we shouldn't go for Monotheism as the logical path would be:
TW>Masonry>Poly>Mono which lands Mono ~2300ish, which is too risky seeing it goes ~2500 with zealots, of which there are > = 2 here. Now if we forget TW, then we're slowing research even more as we're getting fewer commerce from second city.

What I'll be testing today is:
Pottery (granary in Delhi) vs -> Priesthood (earlier Oracle, Confu possibly in 2nd city for cheap border pop). +\- Masonry and 1S vs 2S
Failure gold will go a long way especially if we're in semi-isolation.

3rd and 4th city are pretty clear imo (pig+cow+fish city is a great GP farm so is triple clams, but this one is much slower to set up; I'd hook up the marble instead)

Do we really want to fogbust the whole island? I'd leave some room for barbs to try and unlock HE as well as cities for capture gold. Also saves us a settler.

 

[Duckweed]

Without going for SH, we may want to get Oracle as soon as possible for the 1st GS.

Tech:
TW->Poly->Priest->(Fishing,AH???)->Writing

Delhi starts 2nd worker at size 4 and 1pop whip it in turn 42. then the settler to completion.

The 4th and 5th citizens might want to work on the riverside hills for Oracle and we want o maximize population for CS scientists. Therefore Pottery is not that useful for now.

I agree with 2S of the stone to used the copper immediately. Probably let it build 3rd settler from start.

We can just fogbust the western area since those spots are too good to be delayed by barbarian.

 

[dingding]

Good job, guys for your stimulation game!

I wasn't available last night to test the game but after seeing your result, I think you've done enough.

I think we've ignored at the beginning the possibility of existence of a precious metal. If we have anticipated it, I might have considered seriously a Mono beeline (without BW). An early religion + early OR + semi-isolated must be good as well. Now it seems too late to consider it.

As I see it from your tests, the Oracle is quite secured if we go TW=>Poly/Medi=>PH afterwards directly. So 3 cities then Oracle is doable. In this playstyle, I agree with Duck that the second city can be settled 2S of the stone and start with worker/settler.

WE can be made from TGW, Chichen Itza and Ankor Wot. They are useless except for a bit culture but AI will probably build the later two very late so the money comes late to us as well.

I think the main task now is to locate the third city. Maybe we can see it more clearly after the second round. From the info we have in hands at the moment, I strongly prefer settle down on the northern coast to settle on the southern one.

The cap is too good to be cottaged ASAP, but it's probably good to grow it first to 7&#12289;8 and preforms CE+FE here (8=>6 whip).

About fogbusting:

The current positions of warriors are good. The west should be explored then move the warriors back to the current positions. Seems no more warriors are needed to the west for the moment. If bar cities settle down there, let them go. They will probably be set down in a good place, and I prefer a well-positioned bar city rather a bad-placed one.