The only thing that's doubled is the base movement of a vessel. The GL adds one to the base movement of any vessel, and that doesn't change with diff. naval movement.
SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
@Abegweit : I fully agree with you that despotic GAs are a PITA. Nevertheless we should consider that the AIs are locked in power blocks, so I expect the AIs on our continent to be one block. As soon as we go to war it is more or less an AW game. Then we will need defensive units.
If we can avoid a war long enough this discussion is meaningless of course.
If we can avoid a war long enough this discussion is meaningless of course.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
I expect the AIs on our continent to be one block.
Right. And the other continent is likely to be another block. This is actually a very important point.
I doubt, though, that it increases the attractiveness of despotic GAs. Quite the opposite. The main implication, as I see it, is that we will need to be better prepared for war than normal or to trick the AI into declaring. In the former case, we should probably have revolted before starting the war. In the latter, there's no need for Impis.
Anyway, the immediate need is for exploration and contacts. Then we can decide. This whole discussion is premature.
Some other thoughts, all of them also premature.
I assume that the members of a Locked Alliance are in contact from the beginning of the game. That would speed up their research somewhat, meaning that it could be very hard to get a Republic Slingshot. It might be better to go straight to Philo. This is a decision to make when Writing comes in, though. Not now.
If six civs simultaneously declare war on us, we will get a ton of war happiness at the beginning. Allowing them to attack us or losing battles will quickly change that. Therefore we either have to make sure this doesn't happen or be in Monarchy. To get a good kill ratio, we need cats. Lots of them.
Once again, this is different from AW in that we have time to prepare for the seige and also can turn down the heat a little. Good kill ratios also make it easier to get peace.
ROP raping our first victim could be a good idea. Get the jump while we can before hunkering down. Our rep is likely to be less important than normal anyway. We are not likely to have many opportunities for GPT deals.
Right. And the other continent is likely to be another block. This is actually a very important point.
I doubt, though, that it increases the attractiveness of despotic GAs. Quite the opposite. The main implication, as I see it, is that we will need to be better prepared for war than normal or to trick the AI into declaring. In the former case, we should probably have revolted before starting the war. In the latter, there's no need for Impis.Anyway, the immediate need is for exploration and contacts. Then we can decide. This whole discussion is premature.
Some other thoughts, all of them also premature.
I assume that the members of a Locked Alliance are in contact from the beginning of the game. That would speed up their research somewhat, meaning that it could be very hard to get a Republic Slingshot. It might be better to go straight to Philo. This is a decision to make when Writing comes in, though. Not now.
If six civs simultaneously declare war on us, we will get a ton of war happiness at the beginning. Allowing them to attack us or losing battles will quickly change that. Therefore we either have to make sure this doesn't happen or be in Monarchy. To get a good kill ratio, we need cats. Lots of them.
Once again, this is different from AW in that we have time to prepare for the seige and also can turn down the heat a little. Good kill ratios also make it easier to get peace.
ROP raping our first victim could be a good idea. Get the jump while we can before hunkering down. Our rep is likely to be less important than normal anyway. We are not likely to have many opportunities for GPT deals.
Oh, I do not want to make a despotic GA attractive. 
I would like to avoid as much as possible. As the world is more crowded I fear that wars are more likely and then we might be forced to build some Impis and are forced into a GA.
As you said this is premature and we have to get started anyway. Then we can see how to proceed.
What about this roster :
Abegweit
Paul
Andronicus
markh
I.Larkin
I would like to avoid as much as possible. As the world is more crowded I fear that wars are more likely and then we might be forced to build some Impis and are forced into a GA.As you said this is premature and we have to get started anyway. Then we can see how to proceed.
What about this roster :
Abegweit
Paul
Andronicus
markh
I.Larkin
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
I'm fine with going first. I suggest I play any obvious early moves and then stop until Andronicus chirps in. I think we all agree on scout south. I find it hard to believe that anything the scout finds will change things from settler se and settle, worker to cow and scout east. Maybe I'll move the scout on the next round and then stop. Or not. I won't go any further.
Since Ivan wants to go next, I suggest this roster:
Abegweit
Ivan
Paul
Andronicus
mark
Since Ivan wants to go next, I suggest this roster:
Abegweit
Ivan
Paul
Andronicus
mark
I. Larkin
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2003
- Messages
- 4,417
I agree with Andronicus about the GLH. We should definitely consider building it.
It is especially good at continents and with only 60% water, it might well be enough
to allow us to reach our goal. If we do decide to build it, we should hold off on suicide
ventures until it is finished. Ignoring the value in early exploration, the expected ROI
on suicide galleys and curraghs is about the same. It shifts strongly in favour of
galleys if the GLH is factored in. With GLH steroids, galleys may even be able to
explore the entire world without risk.
At Diff. Naval Mov. (DNM) Galley do SEA-OC-SEA-Coast move. With TLH
SEA-OC-OC-SEA- Coas. I also count TLH as the best wonder, but 10 swords (or 15
Archers are much better). I prefer that somebody at our continent will build TLH for
us. Typical "60% Water, Continents" map have 2 continents relatively close. And
third may be little bit aside. We will able to finish it with "Quasi-Suicide Bridge"
(QSB), (see my post for GOTM 51). The range of this bridge with DNM is
Sea-Oc-Oc-Oc-Oc-Oc-Sea-Coast. With this range we can conquer everything.
Note, that we play Domination, not Conquest, so Pyramids actually better. Again I
prefer, that somebody else build it for us.
I don't understand all this talk about despotic GAs. I am not against them if the
circumstances are right, which usually involve an awesome AA UU. The Impi is not
awesome.
I like Imply. AIs avoid to go vs strong defenders, so with pendulum manoeuvres of
Imply you can hold huge army. Also, they are good in supporting of horses at fast
attacks deep to the land. They also help at Knight's era, to garrison Captured Cities.
Another reason, that we play against computer. When AI weights the reasons to attack
or not it simply count number of "undefended" Cities. I think it is in our interest to
avoid war until 700-400 BC. It is difficult task to see, when better to have GA. It
depend on land, and we leave discussion until we will know about it more.
I don't see any reason why it should be difficult to avoid despotic GAs either. If we
don't build Impis, we won't get an accidental GA I rarely build spears and Impis
should be no different. Their purpose is to get a GA, not to defend our lands. You
defend by killing invaders before they get to your cities, not by cowering in them and
watching them pillage your countryside. Impis do combine well with horses but it's
like spears with archers. One or two is enough. I fully expect that, when we want our
GA, we will have to get it by using them on the attack.
I do not understand idea of next paragraph at all
It's only exaggerating a little to say that any Impis we make before preparing for
our GA should be whipped, not built. E.g it's done as a panic defence against an
impending surprise attack. An unpanic defence involves training vet archers or
stronger units. As such, the crowded map may well mean we need barracks sooner
than usual. It does not mean we need Impis.
Research: definitely Alphabet. No second choice. I see no reason not to try for the
Sling (or Philosophy at the very minimum) and Alpha has plenty of other advantages
too. I almost always get the Sling at Emperor in my own games even if I start with
neither Alpha nor Pottery. Somehow we never seem to manage it in the SGOTM
Here we at least have granaries from the getgo. Alpha is the most expensive tech and
as such it is difficult to trade for without having a good discount. As Paul noted, the
AI does not prioritise Alpha. Nor does it like Writing or Philo and it only has a
moderate interest in CoL.
I agree with this paragraph. The only doubt, that do we need Republic at all? May be
better go straight for Feudalism? I never tried it yet, but for "many small Cities" it is
economically most reasonable…
Incidently, I disagree with the idea of going for monopoly techs. The first tech on
which I want a monopoly is Writing and I have no interest in trading it – or any other
early techs for that matter. We already have Pots and WC, which is all we will need
for quite a while. While it's true that they are useless for trading, why would we want
to trade for anything? Except, of course, for Alpha TW and IW are medium term
objectives but they pale in comparison with Philo and Republic. I have a feeling that
Andronicus is right that we will have to fight for resources, which makes even TW
and IW low priority. In any case Writing or CoL, traded at the right time, will get both
of them.
Research strategy here may be very different. Probably, we may do not do any
research at all. Look, because AI locked, we can trade any for GPT, declare to other
AI from block and get Tech for free…
It is especially good at continents and with only 60% water, it might well be enough
to allow us to reach our goal. If we do decide to build it, we should hold off on suicide
ventures until it is finished. Ignoring the value in early exploration, the expected ROI
on suicide galleys and curraghs is about the same. It shifts strongly in favour of
galleys if the GLH is factored in. With GLH steroids, galleys may even be able to
explore the entire world without risk.
At Diff. Naval Mov. (DNM) Galley do SEA-OC-SEA-Coast move. With TLH
SEA-OC-OC-SEA- Coas. I also count TLH as the best wonder, but 10 swords (or 15
Archers are much better). I prefer that somebody at our continent will build TLH for
us. Typical "60% Water, Continents" map have 2 continents relatively close. And
third may be little bit aside. We will able to finish it with "Quasi-Suicide Bridge"
(QSB), (see my post for GOTM 51). The range of this bridge with DNM is
Sea-Oc-Oc-Oc-Oc-Oc-Sea-Coast. With this range we can conquer everything.
Note, that we play Domination, not Conquest, so Pyramids actually better. Again I
prefer, that somebody else build it for us.
I don't understand all this talk about despotic GAs. I am not against them if the
circumstances are right, which usually involve an awesome AA UU. The Impi is not
awesome.
I like Imply. AIs avoid to go vs strong defenders, so with pendulum manoeuvres of
Imply you can hold huge army. Also, they are good in supporting of horses at fast
attacks deep to the land. They also help at Knight's era, to garrison Captured Cities.
Another reason, that we play against computer. When AI weights the reasons to attack
or not it simply count number of "undefended" Cities. I think it is in our interest to
avoid war until 700-400 BC. It is difficult task to see, when better to have GA. It
depend on land, and we leave discussion until we will know about it more.
I don't see any reason why it should be difficult to avoid despotic GAs either. If we
don't build Impis, we won't get an accidental GA I rarely build spears and Impis
should be no different. Their purpose is to get a GA, not to defend our lands. You
defend by killing invaders before they get to your cities, not by cowering in them and
watching them pillage your countryside. Impis do combine well with horses but it's
like spears with archers. One or two is enough. I fully expect that, when we want our
GA, we will have to get it by using them on the attack.
I do not understand idea of next paragraph at all
It's only exaggerating a little to say that any Impis we make before preparing for
our GA should be whipped, not built. E.g it's done as a panic defence against an
impending surprise attack. An unpanic defence involves training vet archers or
stronger units. As such, the crowded map may well mean we need barracks sooner
than usual. It does not mean we need Impis.
Research: definitely Alphabet. No second choice. I see no reason not to try for the
Sling (or Philosophy at the very minimum) and Alpha has plenty of other advantages
too. I almost always get the Sling at Emperor in my own games even if I start with
neither Alpha nor Pottery. Somehow we never seem to manage it in the SGOTM
Here we at least have granaries from the getgo. Alpha is the most expensive tech and
as such it is difficult to trade for without having a good discount. As Paul noted, the
AI does not prioritise Alpha. Nor does it like Writing or Philo and it only has a
moderate interest in CoL.
I agree with this paragraph. The only doubt, that do we need Republic at all? May be
better go straight for Feudalism? I never tried it yet, but for "many small Cities" it is
economically most reasonable…
Incidently, I disagree with the idea of going for monopoly techs. The first tech on
which I want a monopoly is Writing and I have no interest in trading it – or any other
early techs for that matter. We already have Pots and WC, which is all we will need
for quite a while. While it's true that they are useless for trading, why would we want
to trade for anything? Except, of course, for Alpha TW and IW are medium term
objectives but they pale in comparison with Philo and Republic. I have a feeling that
Andronicus is right that we will have to fight for resources, which makes even TW
and IW low priority. In any case Writing or CoL, traded at the right time, will get both
of them.
Research strategy here may be very different. Probably, we may do not do any
research at all. Look, because AI locked, we can trade any for GPT, declare to other
AI from block and get Tech for free…
Andronicus
Emperor
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,672
Suggestion
I think our scout needs to look for food boni for 2nd city so we can get it down quick. Food boni spots are likely to be at a premium and food is king.
If no other food boni sites avail nearby consider early archer rush. With build of rax and 6 archers by about turn 30 we should be in shape to take out a capital or 2 if nearby. We would then need to weather the initial rush (only emporer level rush) from allies hopefully a little further away. We would be able to sue for peace from those we have damaged relatively early and take fight to others territory only if beneficial to us.
This approach would quickly weaken the power block on our starting continent.
Republic may be best way to go, but I think monarchy could also be given consideration as there is likely to be less research race this SG and as Klarius demonstrated in SGOTM10 monarchy can research well enough. This would asllow us more flexibility in deciding when to war and when to sue for peace. Unlike usual republic strategy of war with one AI then switch as WW becomes a problem, in this situation we would have to wait for WW to wear off for all alliance block before next attack. This is another reason I would also not favour feudalism - only advantages of feudalism are no optional research, can pop rush and if many small towns unit support not too bad - overall I prefer monarchy or republic.
Research - I would like to know where horses are soon, but we might find them along with iron under AI capitals
.
alpha, writing and philo yes - we need to decide about CoL or poly route.
GLH discussion should wait till further into game
I think our scout needs to look for food boni for 2nd city so we can get it down quick. Food boni spots are likely to be at a premium and food is king.
If no other food boni sites avail nearby consider early archer rush. With build of rax and 6 archers by about turn 30 we should be in shape to take out a capital or 2 if nearby. We would then need to weather the initial rush (only emporer level rush) from allies hopefully a little further away. We would be able to sue for peace from those we have damaged relatively early and take fight to others territory only if beneficial to us.
This approach would quickly weaken the power block on our starting continent.
Republic may be best way to go, but I think monarchy could also be given consideration as there is likely to be less research race this SG and as Klarius demonstrated in SGOTM10 monarchy can research well enough. This would asllow us more flexibility in deciding when to war and when to sue for peace. Unlike usual republic strategy of war with one AI then switch as WW becomes a problem, in this situation we would have to wait for WW to wear off for all alliance block before next attack. This is another reason I would also not favour feudalism - only advantages of feudalism are no optional research, can pop rush and if many small towns unit support not too bad - overall I prefer monarchy or republic.
Research - I would like to know where horses are soon, but we might find them along with iron under AI capitals
. alpha, writing and philo yes - we need to decide about CoL or poly route.
GLH discussion should wait till further into game
You deny that we can start and end a turn safely on SEA with TGL, so we can go like 6 x OC-SEA. That is the huge difference Abegweit meant.I. Larkin said:
The casualities to have TGL on the other side of the world might make it smarter to build it ourselves. Barbs and opponents might make a long journey too expensive.I. Larkin said:
Pyramides would only help on a large continent. I doubt that we should build it. IF we build an AT-wonder, it should be TGL imo.
That would mean we should rather buidl cheaper warriors as MPs.I. Larkin said:
Abegweit sais that he never builds defensive units except for urgency. That's why he does not build Impis.I. Larkin said:
Feudalism will come way too late. If we do self-research, the faster research in Republic will easily make up for a second anarchy.I. Larkin said:
Nice idea - are you sure we do not get the rep hit?I. Larkin said:
Might work for some techs (Alpha?) but I doubt we get Republic from Ai as fast as we can research it ourselves.
D'accord. Maybe we want a second scout if our scout has not circled the island by then...Andronicus said:
I like that one, given no more food around and no fresh water, this would take best advantage of our shield-rich start. Cow, goat and BG would indeed give us rax by turn 10 and 6th archer by turn 29 (or 30 with a scout built first).Andronicus said:
Yes, those two should be considered. We have to decide that when we finish Writing.Andronicus said:
Okay, let's start on Alpha.Andronicus said:Research - I would like to know where horses are soon, but we might find them along with iron under AI capitals
alpha, writing and philo yes - we need to decide about CoL or poly route.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
I am not familiar with locked alliances. Are you saying that we suffer war weariness against the alliance as if it was a single AI? As I said earlier in the thread, I thought attacking would give us lots of war happiness. If they are considered a single opponent, this would be wrong.Andronicus said:
I expect that once we first attack the AI, we will be at permanent war with (various parts of) the alliance. If locked alliance works the way you seem to say to be saying it does, then Monarchy is clearly the way to go.
It is possible that there is more than alliance on the continent, which changes the equation.
Most discussion is premature. Doesn't stop us.
Yes. There is no rep hit. We won't want to do this for Alpha (too early) or Republic (the AI won't have it) but it might be useful for other techs from Iron Working on up. Since there's no hit, it can be repeated too.Paul#42 said:
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
I found a couple of interesting 
threads about locked alliances and war weariness. 
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=69378
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=127499
Looks like Monarchy is the way to go, although this discussion is obviously premature too.
Edit: T-Hawk contradicts this. According to him, WW works the way I thought it would. I also found an earlier post of his in which he said he didn't know. Presumably this means he learned something in the interim.
threads about locked alliances and war weariness. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=69378
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=127499
Looks like Monarchy is the way to go, although this discussion is obviously premature too.
Edit: T-Hawk contradicts this. According to him, WW works the way I thought it would. I also found an earlier post of his in which he said he didn't know. Presumably this means he learned something in the interim.
I. Larkin
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2003
- Messages
- 4,417
Lets define better: TLH - The LightHouse, TGL - The Greate Library.
For thr reason of "free techs without rep hit" we do not need TGL.
(And, I think Literature at all). I think we ought to go straight to Republic and if WW and units support will be a problem swich to Feudalism.
I am not familiar with locked alliances. Are you saying that we suffer war weariness against the alliance as if it was a single AI? As I said earlier in the thread, I thought attacking would give us lots of war happiness. If they are considered a single opponent, this would be wrong.
I think it works as normal MA. When next AI come to war via MA thereis no additional war happines. WW also counted independently, and if we accumulate WW with one opponent and got into conflict with him via another, we will get WW from first. If we have many WWs from different opponents it will come to a sum.
For thr reason of "free techs without rep hit" we do not need TGL.
(And, I think Literature at all). I think we ought to go straight to Republic and if WW and units support will be a problem swich to Feudalism.
I am not familiar with locked alliances. Are you saying that we suffer war weariness against the alliance as if it was a single AI? As I said earlier in the thread, I thought attacking would give us lots of war happiness. If they are considered a single opponent, this would be wrong.
I think it works as normal MA. When next AI come to war via MA thereis no additional war happines. WW also counted independently, and if we accumulate WW with one opponent and got into conflict with him via another, we will get WW from first. If we have many WWs from different opponents it will come to a sum.
I. Larkin
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2003
- Messages
- 4,417
Mmda... It looks that it needs some research. Could you, please, point place atAbegweit said:I found a couple of interesting
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=69378
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=127499
Looks like Monarchy is the way to go, although this discussion is obviously premature too.
Edit: T-Hawk contradicts this. According to him, WW works the way I thought it would. I also found an earlier post of his in which he said he didn't know. Presumably this means he learned something in the interim.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=127499
where they discuss it?
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
It's all through the thread. The first comment is in post 11. They suffer from it at the very beginning.
I'll put together some tests to check this question.
I'll put together some tests to check this question.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
OK. I have tested this.
I set up a locked alliance between four AIs with us poor Zulus out in the cold. Zimbabwe started as a size seven city in Republic. It took two clowns and two luxes on the slider to keep the city happy, which is standard at Emperor. I then set up a series of MA vs warrior battles.
Our MA attacked an Egyptian and won, firing off the MPP. It still took the same amount of luxes to keep the city happy.
Next 10 Egyptian and 10 Greek MAs attacked our poor little warriors and all won. Reason for unhappiness in Zimbabwe -> 100% its just too crowded.
The conclusion is clear-cut. We do not gain war happiness from firing off an MPP and war weariness at calculated on a per-civ basis.
This leads me to prefer Republic over Monarchy but obviously we dont have to make that decision right now.
I set up a locked alliance between four AIs with us poor Zulus out in the cold. Zimbabwe started as a size seven city in Republic. It took two clowns and two luxes on the slider to keep the city happy, which is standard at Emperor. I then set up a series of MA vs warrior battles.
Our MA attacked an Egyptian and won, firing off the MPP. It still took the same amount of luxes to keep the city happy.
Next 10 Egyptian and 10 Greek MAs attacked our poor little warriors and all won. Reason for unhappiness in Zimbabwe -> 100% its just too crowded.
The conclusion is clear-cut. We do not gain war happiness from firing off an MPP and war weariness at calculated on a per-civ basis.
This leads me to prefer Republic over Monarchy but obviously we dont have to make that decision right now.
When you set a locked war in the editor I believe you start out with some WW from each civ.. in SGOTM10 I edited away this starting war weariness.. in SGOTM11 you dont start in any locked wars..Abegweit said:
Andronicus
Emperor
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,672
I. Larkin said:
If WW is a problem in republic it will be just as big a problem in Feudalism. Republic when managed properly has as good unit support as feudalism (ie larger cities)
I think the choice will be between monarchy and republic
My concern with WW is not the increased WW from multiple civs, but the difficulty of resetting WW to zero after we need a break - I dont think we can afford the 20 turns for WW to wear off before reattacking someone (and resparking wars against entire alliance including those we have residual WW against). The civ we are currently directing our attack against we should be able to control WW by successful attack, but if we are having to manage a defensive war against it's allies WW will build up even with succesful defence.
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