SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Abegweit]

Good to see Paul agrees with me about the govt plan.

These are my plans. Now's the time to object

Trade Writing to Ozzy for TW & 20g.
B -> settler and works the cow & oysters so it will complete just as it grows to size 3. As I said earlier, if we are planning a revolt soon, this city does not need a granary as Z should get permanent possesion of the cow. Barracks next.
I -> worker. It will complete just as the city grows.
worker nw of of U is only 1 turn into it mine. It will stop and make a road e-ne of U instead, preparing to brig irrigation to Z and BlackDot.
settler and worker at B will follow mark's plan.

Continue research of Philo, probably finding tricks to speed it up. Ex.: a sci in H brings us down to 11 turns without slowing the granary build. This is quite worthwhile. We are on the home stretch and one turn could make a huge difference. I plan on doing this and may well hire more. Contrary to what Paul said, I fully expect to get Philo on my turns.

When we get Philo, grab a government, Republic preferably, Monarchy otherwise. If it turns out to be Mono, revolt immediately. Republic needs number crunching at the time but we should definitely be in Republic at latest when the cow is irrigated.

 

[Andronicus]

Trade Writing to Ozzy for TW & 20g.

Yes - this is best trade

B -> settler and works the cow & oysters so it will complete just as it grows to size 3. As I said earlier, if we are planning a revolt soon, this city does not need a granary as Z should get permanent possesion of the cow. Barracks next.

Agree

I -> worker. It will complete just as the city grows.
worker nw of of U is only 1 turn into it mine. It will stop and make a road e-ne of U instead, preparing to brig irrigation to Z and BlackDot.
settler and worker at B will follow mark's plan.

Agree worker right option - we remain short and those BGs in the U -I - H triangle need roading and mining. Not sure what you mean with worker in Bapedi ? road mountain to purple dot which mark abandoned because of barbs. If going to road mountain then I favour mountain to pink dot but not sure if we are talking about the same.

Continue research of Philo, probably finding tricks to speed it up. Ex.: a sci in H brings us down to 11 turns without slowing the granary build. This is quite worthwhile. We are on the home stretch and one turn could make a huge difference. I plan on doing this and may well hire more. Contrary to what Paul said, I fully expect to get Philo on my turns.

Yes looking at save the strategy you suggest is only 1 science per turn short

When we get Philo, grab a government, Republic preferably, Monarchy otherwise. If it turns out to be Mono, revolt immediately. Republic needs number crunching at the time but we should definitely be in Republic at latest when the cow is irrigated.

I am coming around to favouring republic. The rapid tech pace makes me think we are going to have to research deeper into tech than I had initially thought.
My question is what are the mechanics of war with locked alliance. If we make war with one is it immed war with all or only if we invade their territory? If we make peace with one do we stay at war with others? If we remain at war with allies, are we in danger of immed heading back into war with the civ we have just made peace with?
The mechanics of this is very relevant in terms of avoiding WW and in possible abuse of gpt payments.
If we are unable to get out of a war for long enough for WW to wear off we run into WW problems in republic.
If we cant get CoL then there is a big advantage to getting free monarchy and immed out of despotism rather than self research all the way to republic whilst still in despotism

 

[I. Larkin]

Took a look at the game. Looks pretty good. We should sell Writing to Osman. He will give us either BW, TW or Masonry and some cash for it. I would take TW +20g w/o hesitation.

I'm unclear what the settler and worker are doing in Bapedi. I would like to settle the temporary city next, especially as we are mining yet another tile in the eastern waterway.

BTW, barb galleys appear with Writing. Yes. I know it doesn't make any sense.

I recomend BW again, but you will not listen, I know. Nothing I can do about it.
Settel normal City NW of Babedy. Temporary City is a crazy idea. Waterpath from south looks less harmeful, taking into account that we will be at Monarchy soon. It is not late to stop worker, instead of loose whole settler at all. You again will not listen, I belive. I really don' t know what can teach you...

@ Ivan, I think that most of your criticisms are invalid. We are making good progress and our empire looks good. It is indeed about time to let Z grow. Just one or two more settlers first.

I desagree strongly. I think if we researched faster and get phylo 6-7 turns earler, we would stand much better. It is strock of luck that 2 civs have Poly and we really have a chance for Monarchy. Also I notise excelent idea of Markh to trade mysticizm instead of TW, BW ets. I beg you at list at your turnset do not build workers, settlers ets and focus on max research output. Will you listen to me at list here?? The fact that somebody knows MM indicate something...

 

[Andronicus]

I desagree strongly. I think if we research faster and get phylo 6-7 turns earler, we would stand much better. It is strock of luck that 2 civs have Poly and we really have a chance for Monarchy.
...

I beg you at list at your turnset do not build workers, settlers ets and focus on max research output.
...

The fact that somebody knows MM indicate something...

Please indicate how you believe we can get philosophy within 3-4 turns (ie 6-7 turns earlier than Abegweit's plan).

Workers help research. No point growing population unless have developed tiles to use - we need more developed tiles to boost research, therefore we need workers first.

How can you know someone knows MM? None of the civs we have met know it. I strongly doubt any civ we have not met knows it.
As Abegweit has already stated, barb galleys come with writing's discovery not MM.

 

[I. Larkin]

Please indicate how you believe we can get philosophy within 3-4 turns (ie 6-7 turns earlier than Abegweit's plan).

2)Workers help research. No point growing population unless have developed tiles to use - we need more developed tiles to boost research, therefore we need workers first.

3)How can you know someone knows MM? None of the civs we have met know it. I strongly doubt any civ we have not met knows it.
As Abegweit has already stated, barb galleys come with writing's discovery not MM.

We could do it if played right. Now we can gain 1-2 turns or loose.
2)In general yes but in this Abeweitt's turnset we need more coins. (Work on Gem say)
3) Normally it mean that somebody research MM now.

 

[Paul#42]

I recomend BW again, but you will not listen, I know. Nothing I can do about it.
Settel normal City NW of Babedy. Temporary City is a crazy idea. Waterpath from south looks less harmeful, taking into account that we will be at Monarchy soon. It is not late to stop worker, instead of loose whole settler at all. You again will not listen, I belive. I really don' t know what can teach you...

temporary town is already history.

I desagree strongly. I think if we researched faster and get phylo 6-7 turns earler, we would stand much better.

No need to shout like that . Our path for now is a compromise between rrex and fast science. Having few big towns would have helped with the first few techs, but in the long run we will need those towns we founded instead. On the bright side we now won't go for CoL first which we might have tried if we were quicker

Also I notise excelent idea of Markh to trade mysticizm instead of TW, BW ets.

Yes, that was a smart move. Not sure I would have seen that trade...

I beg you at list at your turnset do not build workers, settlers ets and focus on max research output. Will you listen to me at list here??

You are listened to. And I'm sure we already used some of your suggestions. But playing in a team is making compromises. You will have noticed that Andro's decisions are backed up with a team decision.
The decision to not build Impis for now, was also a team decision. I had suggested to use impis if we have trouble to expand, Andro and Abegweit were against it, you were the only one who wanted to use them without urgent need. (Not sure about Mark here, as always... )
Having the revolt in sight we will have a discussion again, when to have our GA. Part of that will be building a few Impis (favorable in your turnset ), the chance to promote them on a few barbs and to start a war and kick off out GA.

The fact that somebody knows MM indicate something...

Who does? If Abegweit is right about barb galleys at Writing, we have no indication for that.

 

[Abegweit]

We could do it if played right. Now we can gain 1-2 turns or loose.
2)In general yes but in this Abeweitt's turnset we need more coins. (Work on Gem say)
3) Normally it mean that somebody research MM now.

1. Wrong. We would probably win anyway - and I have already shown how to gain 2 turns. I fully expect to gain more.
2. Good idea. Switching Z to the gems gains us another turn. I'll do it.
3. Wrong. As I already said, it comes with Writing.


I think if we researched faster and get phylo 6-7 turns earler, we would stand much better.

This is nonsense. Some worker moves have been wrong but gaining 6-7 turns would simply not have been possible. Why don't you replay the opening and show us your magnificent line?


It is strock of luck that 2 civs have Poly and we really have a chance for Monarchy.

Indeed it is. What's your point? Especially given the fact that you didn't even know how to take advantage of it.


Also I notise excelent idea of Markh to trade mysticizm instead of TW, BW ets.

Indeed it was an excellent idea. I already suggested this. You, in contrast, wanted the useless BW.


I beg you at list at your turnset do not build workers, settlers ets and focus on max research output. Will you listen to me at list here?

I already said that I plan to focus on research. This turnset is unusual in that we have a critical short-term research goal. Growing cities instead of building new ones does not increase research except in the very short run. Very short. It has many other disadvantages. I will, however, continue to build settlers and workers. Probably no more than I have already said.

 

[Abegweit]

Executive summary

We are the proud possessors of the tech of Monarchy (and everything else the AI knows), which came in on turn 9 . We have both iron and horses in our lands. We have three new cities.

Water will get to the cow in six turns.

There's a lot of barbs around. Camps to the south-west, south-east and north-east at least.

I didn't revolt because I wanted one more archer out of Z. I suggest that we do it now.

Turn log
Turn 0 1500
Switch Z to gems. Hire a scientist in H. B and U go to settler and I to worker. Increase sci rate to 100%
According to the combat calc, my odds are better by attacking out of Isa instead of defending. So I do. And lose. In view of this, I hold off on the Turkish trade.

[interturn]
Lose 21g in sack of I.

Turn 1 1475
Trade Writing to Ozzy for TW+ 20g as planned. We have two sources of horse, one at PinkDot and the other south of Isa.

Turn 2 1450
Intombe founded -> worker
Hire sci @ U and switch from goats to road. Philo now due in six.

Turn 3 1425
U settler -> archer

Turn 4 1400
B settler -> barracks
Attack barb n of Z and promote archer to elite

Turn 5 1375
Egyptian are building ToA
Z archer -> archer
Mpondo founded @ BlackDot -> barracks
Attack barb camp to southeast and win

Turn 6 1350
Isa worker -> barracks
Attack barb to sw and lose

Turn 7 1325
Ngome founded on PickDot. There are a LOT of barbs in this area

Turn 8 1300
New barb campo appears to se
U Archer -> settler
Contact Japanese

[inter-turn]
Learn Philo. Enter Big Picture.
Trade to Cleo for Poly
Philo -> Osman for Masonry + 17g
Poly -> India for Math + 50g
Philo -> Russia for BW + 15g
Poly -> Japan for IW + 50g
Poly -> China for HB + 25g
Select Monarchy as free tech and… Yes!
Start research of Currency

Turn 9 1275
Blah

Turn 10 1250
Z Archer -> archer

Notes to next best player
H should hire a scientist for one turn
Get us out of despo
Have fun with the barbs

 

[markh]

Yes, that was a smart move. Not sure I would have seen that trade...

Uh, thank you. At least one smart decision from me. Some worker actions were not of that quality.

The decision to not build Impis for now, was also a team decision. I had suggested to use impis if we have trouble to expand, Andro and Abegweit were against it, you were the only one who wanted to use them without urgent need. (Not sure about Mark here, as always... )

I stated that I hate despotic GAs, so BW and Impis were not on my priority list. Building Impis just for hunting barbs is not an option for me.

 

[markh]

Great that the monarchy sling worked out. Both horses and iron. Very nice ! Where is the catch ?

 

[Paul#42]

There's a lot of barbs around. Camps to the south-west, south-east and north-east at least.

Turn 0 1500
Switch Z to gems. Hire a scientist in H. B and U go to settler and I to worker. Increase sci rate to 100%
According to the combat calc, my odds are better by attacking out of Isa instead of defending. So I do. And lose. In view of this, I hold off on the Turkish trade.
[interturn]
Lose 21g in sack of I.

Maybe you should also have opened at least one embassy which we will need anyway soon. But tough RNG on that fight

I didn't revolt because a wanted one more archer out of Z. I suggest that we do it now.

Hm... That's a pity, we lost the chance to reroll or/and to spare a turn by TBP. But I know there are times a revolt is not appropriate...

Turn 6 1350
Isa worker -> barracks
Attack barb to sw and lose

what did we lose?

Learn Philo. Enter Big Picture.
Trade to Cleo for Poly
Philo -> Osman for Masonry + 17g
Poly -> India for Math + 50g
Philo -> Russia for BW + 15g
Poly -> Japan for IW + 50g
Poly -> China for HB + 25g
Select Monarchy as free tech and… Yes!
Start research of Currency

You are fast, young gun...
Good job about the monarchy sling. But don't you think you should have prompted us the turn before researching Philo on whether we should revolt immediately or not? I do not consider that decision "clearcut"

 

[Abegweit]

Maybe you should also have opened at least one embassy which we will need anyway soon. But tough RNG on that fight

I should have thought of that, but we had to take a hit anyway since we needed money for the philo run. One embassy would have been right.

Hm... That's a pity, we lost the chance to reroll or/and to spare a turn by TBP. But I know there are times a revolt is not appropriate...

There's no re-roll in C3C

what did we lose?

A conscript warrior

Good job about the monarchy sling. But don't you think you should have prompted us the turn before researching Philo on whether we should revolt immediately or not? I do not consider that decision "clearcut"

Count on it. You are going to want the archer. And it's just a turn.

 

[Abegweit]

Taking a trip down memory land to our last game,...

Paulie plays with barbs. Remember that there are at least two more camps. This should be fun in anarchy.

There are two archers in Ngome. Also some horsies if you can use 'em.

Oh. And check out the territory graph.

 

[Abegweit]

Oops. For some reason, I thought Paul was up. Ivan is.

Roster:
Abegweit just played
I.Larkin at bat
Paul#42 on deck
Andronicus
markh

 

[Paul#42]

given the current threat (and our current RNG-luck ) I would suggest to draw the archer out of N killing the barb on grass and head for the camp, not looking back. Establish some embassies to shorten the money we lose to 3-4 pillaging barbs...

Crucial will be to protect B and other further developed towns from barbs, so the archer in Z must catch that horse 2S of B...

I would also allow Ivan to let Z grow now and build ~2-3 Impis for promotion tours now that revolt is in sight.

Ivan, if you don't like coping with those barbs too much we could also swap our turnsets...

 

[Abegweit]

Yes. Probably best to establish several embassies and let the barbs pillage Ngome. After that the situation should be under control. OTOH, they aren't doing much. Just running around. An alternative would be to build an impi in Ulundi before the revolt (it would take two turns) and then move to the attack?

Is it time for war? Declare on China and bring the Russians in? I'm for this. Slow down their research. Scope out the diplo situation before starting off.

 

[Paul#42]

Is there any reason not to start our GA asap after we have crowned a king?

Some points to discuss:
1. build 2-3 Impis and promote them on barbs

2. Make some nice gpt deals with Gandhi's friends (if they have something to offer)

3. Send Impis and archers after Gandhi's spears. Start war, Initiate GA.

4. Sign in one AI of the other block (we'd need some tech to offer)

Any other ideas?

 

[Paul#42]

Oh. And check out the territory graph.

Looking nice... Let's wait for Wotan's and Klarius' turns...

Again: Let's take a little more time for our sets... I'd suggest to wait for those two teams to submit their 1250BC-file...

 

[Abegweit]

Ah, yes. GA.

Our cities should grow a bit first. It's a waste when they are so tiny. To speed this up, Z should spit out workers to join into the other towns.

War immediately but the Impis shouldn't get involved for another 20 turns or so. We have Poly to offer to Cathy and Philo to Gandhi. Monarchy is a monopoly.

What about a GL or FP in Isa?

Edit: no one has anything to offer right now. And someone should test the gpt idea. I already verified that we don't get war happiness for triggering an MPP. I would not be surprised at all to find that we get a rep hit.

 

[Paul#42]

To speed this up, Z should spit out workers to join into the other towns.

Against. Z is too productive to shrink it just to let others grow. workers can come from less productive towns. Z should be a 4-turn-sf for the next ~1000 years.

What about a GL or FP in Isa?

Yes, FP should come soon. Given our current exploration, I'm not too sure that we should build the Lighthouse. We can reach 5 civs without it, maybe we do not need it at all or gamble on one of those five building it?

FP I consider more important. Start it as soon as we have enough units to keep our nasty barbies in check.