SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Andronicus]

I'm against selling currency cheaply to Cleo. Selling to India for all their money makes sence as they will likely trade for currency in a few turns.
Is it worth the cost to take a peak at Delhi just before dow? - probably not.
I'll go along with plan outlined otherwise.
I repeat my previous suggestion of rushing galley in the far western town )I've forgotten the name) immed after gpt payment is cancelled.
Ngome can work forest and still grow on IT
I recommend priority to following worker tasks
- connect Ngome for horses
- road towards India
- mine goats and 1 hill for Z
I suggest settlers to
1) yellow dot
2) purple dot (on Paul's map - 2NE of western lake)
3) brown dot
4) grey dot (provided enough workers to irrigate a grass and mine a hill for it)
5) orange dot

 

[I. Larkin]

Andro, as I understoog, my plan has been approved? Cur, MM, rush Galley and sail to India? I have only 3 turns, you know. To carry out "mini war" and make descison to hold or to gift will be Pauls turns. As I remember discussion that teleport via gift is allowed for "panic retreat". It is clear our case.

2) purple dot (on Paul's map - 2NE of western lake)
I disagree. It is low productive area and if we will make Palace jump to Thebes
this City will be harmfull.
What to build in Babedy? Granary or what?

 

[Abegweit]

I think teleportion of units is an exploit and prohibited, right? ]True. There is no need for it anyway.

Research after the trade - what?

I propose nothing. We don't need anything beyond MM for quite a while and I see no reason to accelerate the tech pace. We can repeat this trick or do pointy-stick in the meantime. Maybe build some warriors and upgrade?

 

[Paul#42]

What to build in Babedy? Granary or what?

Galleys I think in Bapedi and Intombe. Both go West.

on research:

I propose nothing. We don't need anything beyond MM for quite a while and I see no reason to accelerate the tech pace. We can repeat this trick or do pointy-stick in the meantime.

But we want to get knights fast, right?
Don't we want to use the SCI civs' free techs?

 

[I. Larkin]

OK, I'll send 2 A just in case. Paul will decide what to do with Delhi.
I will pick Construction at 0%. We need Aqueducts soonner or later.
Why we need 2 Galleys at West?

 

[Abegweit]

Andro, as I understoog, my plan has been approved? Cur, MM, rush Galley and sail to India? I have only 3 turns, you know. To carry out "mini war" and make descison to hold or to gift will be Pauls turns. As I remember discussion that teleport via gift is allowed for "panic retreat". It is clear our case.

I don't remember this - and it's not necessary anyway. The troops can head home on galley or on foot.

2) purple dot (on Paul's map - 2NE of western lake)
I disagree. It is low productive area and if we will make Palace jump to Thebes this City will be harmfull.

This city would indeed degrade the productivity of cities further east if the palace jumped to Thebes, but since we should jump to India (that is where we are planing to attack), this is irrelevant.

What to build in Babedy? Granary or what?

I'm in favour of this.

 

[Abegweit]

But we want to get knights fast, right?

Why? At the expense of giving them tech?

Don't we want to use the SCI civs' free techs?

Sure. Hopefully Monarchy will be useful for that.

 

[Abegweit]

@Paul. The reason for a granary in Bapedi is this:

A thought occurs to me. What about giving the cow to B? Then it could be a worker factory at size five and Z could concentrate on military. As we've already noted, building workers in Z is a waste unless we do a LOT more work.

 

[AlanH]

As I remember discussion that teleport via gift is allowed for "panic retreat".

The last time it was discussed was a while ago, but as far as I recall I wanted to allow it for "Dunkirk" type retreats, but not for exploitative teleportation of entire armies to battle fronts. I was shouted down, and so teleportation by gifting cities was banned without exception.

 

[Paul#42]

Thanks Alan. We can retreat by boat if we feel threatened.

I'd like to send two galleys west asap, one circling north, one south (if both make it) or to double our chances to get a galley over there. Getting contacts there fast might be worth delaying the granary for once, I think we can make enough money to rush it later. One galley, than granary?

So we do no research and try to "buy" techs like we plan with currency if our rep is not trashed after that? Okay for me. Tough to sit still and let the AI research. I'm a scientist by heart, you know...

 

[Abegweit]

Thanks Alan. We can retreat by boat if we feel threatened.

I'd like to send two galleys west asap, one circling north, one south (if both make it) or to double our chances to get a galley over there. Getting contacts there fast might be worth delaying the granary for once, I think we can make enough money to rush it later. One galley, than granary?

So we do no research and try to "buy" techs like we plan with currency if our rep is not trashed after that? Okay for me. Tough to sit still and let the AI research. I'm a scientist by heart, you know...

We chose Monarchy. Let's play to its strength, which is not research.

As for galleys, I think that one is enough for the moment. If it turns out that there really is something to circle we can send a second. Getting the granary lets us build Z into a soldier-building powerhouse. I really think REX and war come ahead of contacts, especially since we don't intend on doing research ATM. WRT exploration, the southern curragh should keep going east when it gets to Land's End.

 

[I. Larkin]

OK, I uploaded file to server. Will write TL soon. Important correction: India did not build settler in Delhi. I think we may unload turn earlear Next Turn (do not forget to Declare) and sail back. One Archer may try to unload now to take Barb camp. Make Deal with Korea 16+16+16 for gpt. Unfortunately CoL out of question.

 

[Andronicus]

Re Bapedi building granary -> workers
Giving cow to Bapedi prevents Z from 10spt combo as previously outlined. This requires mining goat mountain and 1 hill. This will be quicker than building a granary in Bapedi. Once Z has 6 turn factory building 3 workers + 30shield unit (horse or sword) it will need cow continually.
Bapedi could then build units, particuarly if gems are mined increasing commerce as well as production. Later with harbour it could use both gem mountains.
Again lack of workers is the rate limitting factor.

Re purple dot - agree not particuarly productive and never going to get beyond size 6. Main benefit is opening up more plains tiles for Bapedi to use, though these likely to be used by purple dot anyway.

I remain unconvinced on the palace jump thingy at this stage. Nothing I see in embassy screens makes me want to shift. By time we get to Thebes we will have knights and the conquest stage should be speeding up so I doubt there will be time for a palace shift to be beneficial. Sure if it had lands like Entremont in SGOTM9 I would argue it being worthwhile considering attacking Egypt first and shifting palace - the earlier the more time to reap the benefit.

We do need to come to a consensus on palace jump as this does influence where we plant further citeis as well as influencing whether we build FP now.
If we are not planning on shifting palace, we will get more benefit from 200 shields of units than FP at this stage. Building a wonder doesnt make a lot of sense to me either - lets take 'em.

 

[Paul#42]

got it. Will start tomorrow.

We are still missing 6 civs, I consider it high prio to meet them.
If we give up the plan for Bapedi's granary as Andro suggests, I would build two galleys and send both over to make contacts asap. There's a lot of money to earn and there's too much peace on earth .
If I find our rep intact, we might have another deal before igniting war if they are more advanced over there.

plans for my set (please discuss):
1) attack India. An archer could attack that spear next turn. Galley turns back.
2) build two galleys, sail west (there must be a western passage to India! )
3) settle yellow dot and brown dot. Yellow first because brown will have better access in four turns when road is built.
4) stick with wonder build in Isa, still think FP should be built there.
5) bring units to choke point, defend and slowly advance to India. build road there.
6) stick with research 0%.

Golden Age
How about having our boost when we have founded the next two towns and connected the horses? We could use it to build some 20 horses and launch a first serious attack.
That would be in 7-9 turns. Z could start its 30-30 worker factory combo before completing the mines.
Yes, I think this is a good time to start it. May I have a vote on this from everyone? I would then prepare an Impi on a galley to do some pillaging in India. Another one should be at the choke, maybe a redlined warrior shows up there.
Tough to time GA with a defensive unit

 

[Andronicus]

plans for my set (please discuss):
1) attack India. An archer could attack that spear next turn. Galley turns back.
2) build two galleys, sail west (there must be a western passage to India! )
3) settle yellow dot and brown dot. Yellow first because brown will have better access in four turns when road is built.
4) stick with wonder build in Isa, still think FP should be built there.
5) bring units to choke point, defend and slowly advance to India. build road there.
6) stick with research 0%.

1) is an mpp triggerred if you attack a unit outside it's territory?
2) I agree
3) no argument from me
4) see my comment above - are we still wanting palace shift? - this question needs answering first as palace shift warrants FP first. If no palace shift then what is the actual benefit of FP in Isa in terms of extra shield and commerce, versus 200 shields which could build rax and 6 horses.
5) would rather progress quickly with stack of horse covered by impi - road a must
6) not sure on this - will need to look at save - meeting other AIs would be helpful here.

Golden Age
How about having our boost when we have founded the next two towns and connected the horses? We could use it to build some 20 horses and launch a first serious attack.
That would be in 7-9 turns. Z could start its 30-30 worker factory combo before completing the mines.
Yes, I think this is a good time to start it. May I have a vote on this from everyone? I would then prepare an Impi on a galley to do some pillaging in India. Another one should be at the choke, maybe a redlined warrior shows up there.

We do need to decide on when GA. The production boost would be good now for building lots of horsies, so long as dont meet lots of pikes by time get there. Some pillaging impis to cut off iron would be useful.
Getting India and Japan in hand before chivalry would be nice. China too but that's probably over ambitious.

 

[Abegweit]

Re Bapedi building granary -> workers
Giving cow to Bapedi prevents Z from 10spt combo as previously outlined. This requires mining goat mountain and 1 hill. This will be quicker than building a granary in Bapedi. Once Z has 6 turn factory building 3 workers + 30shield unit (horse or sword) it will need cow continually.
Bapedi could then build units, particuarly if gems are mined increasing commerce as well as production. Later with harbour it could use both gem mountains.
Again lack of workers is the rate limitting factor.

The granary in B will be quite useful even if Z gets the cow. However, your plan seems quite reasonable.

I remain unconvinced on the palace jump thingy at this stage. Nothing I see in embassy screens makes me want to shift. By time we get to Thebes we will have knights and the conquest stage should be speeding up so I doubt there will be time for a palace shift to be beneficial. Sure if it had lands like Entremont in SGOTM9 I would argue it being worthwhile considering attacking Egypt first and shifting palace - the earlier the more time to reap the benefit.

You're quite right that, if we were to jump, we should be attacking them, not India. However, we have committed ourselves to alliance with Egypt and war against India. Thus the only reasonable palace jump is to the north-east.

We do need to come to a consensus on palace jump as this does influence where we plant further citeis as well as influencing whether we build FP now. If we are not planning on shifting palace, we will get more benefit from 200 shields of units than FP at this stage. Building a wonder doesnt make a lot of sense to me either - lets take 'em.

I tend to agree about the wonder (although we don't have enough info to decide yet). However, the FP will benefit our entire empire, whether we jump or not. It should be well worth it. So I don't see a decision on palace jump as being necessary right now. We should build it in either case. However, hadn't we decided to chop something there before starting it? Either a galley or a cat would be fine.

I don't see much issue on city placement either. Since the key question is distance from the FP vs. distance from the capital, the main consequence is that we should not build any cities on the peninsula. But why would we want to anyway? I suppose we should avoid the gold hill town as well.

would rather progress quickly with stack of horse covered by impi - road a must

D'accord.

We do need to decide on when GA. The production boost would be good now for building lots of horsies, so long as dont meet lots of pikes by time get there.

The proper moment would be when we have finished our REX. Since food is the only thing which is not increased by a GA, building workers and settlers is undesirable during this period.

Some pillaging impis to cut off iron would be useful.

Absolutely right. Without iron, they are pretty much defenseless. We should do this a LOT.

 

[Abegweit]

Re: palace jump.

It occurs to me that there is a huge problem with this. In order for the region around the FP to be valuable, there should be a small productive region around the capital (say 8-12 cities) and a large area around that (perhaps out to distance 20) must be completely uninhabited.

No science farms And we're in Monarchy

So either we leader-rush the FP or we forget the whole idea of two cores.

In consequence, we should forget the FP in Isa and build units as Andro suggested.

 

[Paul#42]

Yes, I'm also tending to not build FP in Isa, but build barracks and horses instead. By doing this, we can finally insert some chops...

We might want to rush the FP if we finally find (and conquer) the legendary AI capital with four cows on an Iron hill...

I think we will found another three towns, yellow, orange and brown. That's it for the Rex. Then we will have some workers and the next town should be far away (to create beach head, hook up lux, secure a choke point etc...).

Okay, I want more feedback on the GA. This might become hot in my turnset. sooner or later? I think it is time for our GA now, when all three settlers (two to build) for the final three towns are out.

I hope to play tomorrow evening, from Monday through Wednesday I will be on a business trip. If I feel like having not enough input then, I will have to ask to be skipped or swapped.

 

[I. Larkin]

I hope to play tomorrow evening, from Monday through Wednesday I will be on a business trip. If I feel like having not enough input then, I will have to ask to be skipped or swapped.

My recomendation: play preturn and press enter.
At 975 BC we may declare war and it it the most responsible decision, as it drug us to war vs most powreful block. Better to have final look before that.
Rush Galley in Itombe at preturn We have money for that.

 

[I. Larkin]

7 1075 BC Finish barbs near Ng. Russia has MM, Japan+Korea Curr+MM. Curr costs 22 gpt.Trade curr+4 from Korea 22 gpt, Trade MM+7 from Russia for Curr, trade curr to India for 87 g. Rush Galley in H for 112.
IBT Nothing.
8 1050 BC A+A -> (4, -5), Ga->(5,-6). Disband Scout in H
IBT
9 1025 BC make deal with Korea 32g for 1+1 gpt, A->(0,0). Ga-> (7, -6)
IBT Barb Horse near Mpondo
10 1000 BC Ga->(11,-5). Next turn it may arrive to Indian land (unload Archers) Indians stay at the same position. Rush Galley at Ittombe Now! Dhely grows to size 3. Probably they change production when India Declare. Recommendation: Unload Archers next turn at (13, -10) and Declare. Don’t forget to make last gpt deal with Korea before. Without combat return home.