SGOTM 11 - Unusual Suspects

[AlanH]

BtS SGOTM 11 - Welcome the Goddess

Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 11 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

You are playing as Gandhi and, appropriately, your civilization is dedicated to the worship of the Goddess of Peace, Eldine, who will enter the world to bring in an era of everlasting happiness on the very day that you prove her righteousness to the world by securing a peaceful victory over the other civilizations. There is but one problem. Eldine is currently naked and must be clothed when she enters the world. In order to clothe her in a manner as befits a great Goddess, you must have access to fur, dye, silk and ivory. Your Holy books tell you that Eldine will use the fur as a portal through which to enter the world, and to demonstrate your devotion to her, you must have a welcoming party ready on the fur: Four great people (to symbolise Eldine's greatness) and four warriors (to symbolise the toil and labour as you raised Eldine's great civilization from a single settler). This will be no easy feat, since rumour has it that fur is so rare that only one unique supply exists, and that is heavily guarded by the most vile barbarians. Doubtless this was the result of meddling by the Devil Satan when the world was young and the Gods not paying sufficient attention.

Oh, and Eldine detests war and all its trappings. On the day she enters the world, she will question your brother and sister AI civs to ascertain how you have treated them, and will be distressed beyond belief should she discover that you have been excessively warlike towards them - in that case she will reject your civilization and look for more worthy worshippers.

Your aim in this game is to welcome in Eldine by securing a cultural or diplomatic victory that satisfies the following conditions:

• Every AI is still alive and running a state religion.
• All your cities have access to fur, dye, silk and ivory.
• You have the welcoming party of four great people and four warriors standing ready on the only fur in the world. (The great people can be of any type)
• You are running a state religion which has been spread to every one of your cities.
• No more than two AIs have a 'you declared war on us' negative modifier towards you.

The winner of the competition is the team that secures the earliest (measured by date) cultural or diplomatic victory where all these conditions are satisfied on the turn of your victory. Obviously your game is forfeit should you lose the game or win by some other victory condition. If you win a cultural or diplomatic victory without satisfying all the conditions, your game will be listed and ranked within a secondary group for the amusement of other teams (especially if you do something silly that makes it impossible for you satisfy the conditions, like letting ivory become obsolete, or having fewer than 4 warriors when your tech becomes too advanced to let you build any more).

Timetable
The start files will be published on Friday, April 23 here. There will be one start file per team. Please ensure that you only download your own team file.

The finish deadline is August 23 2010. If any team has not finished by this date they will be deemed to have retired, and will not be eligible for any awards.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.



Map Parameters

• Playable Leader/Civ - Gandhi of India
• Traits - Spiritual, Philosophical (starts with Mysticism and Mining)
• Unique Unit - Fast Worker (replaces Worker)
• Unique Building - Mausoleum (replaces Jail)
• Starting Era - Ancient
• Difficulty - Emperor
• Game Speed - Epic (750 turns)
• World size - Standard
• Rivals - Six
• Landform - Fractal
• Sea level - Medium
• Climate - Temperate
• Other settings - No goodie huts, No events
• Victory Conditions - All enabled

Notes

• Versions
  This game will be played in Civilization IV Beyond the Sword, version 3.19, using the HoF Mod BUFFY-3.19.003. This HoF Mod version is available here.
  
  If a later BtS patch, or BUFFY version, is released during this game you will NOT be able to use it to play. You will need to complete this game in the above versions before updating your copy of BtS, or create and update a separate copy.
  
  Mac players can only join in if they are able to run the Windows game on their system.
  
• Awards
  Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the Fastest victory that meets the above stated conditions, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.
  
• Rules and Procedures
  Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
  
  All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Have fun

 

[kcd_swede]

Reserved for turnset summaries (we'll be happy to have these when everyone wants to know how we snagged the gold laurels)

t0-t18: played by kcd_swede. Team agreed to settle plains hill on t1 instead of our other choice, in place. Test games confirmed Indiansmoke's insistance that PH gives a much faster start. Presence of silver on PH in BFC only made us gladder for our choice. Have to wait to see if we are on top of copper... Zara Yacoub met on t5, he must be within 10 tiles or less. Agriculture discovered; Bhudism and Hinduism founded IAFAL (t14). Major unplanned event occurred on t7 when barb lion defeats our exploring warrior (at 32% odds!), barely taking any damage! Much mourning in Dehli, as our progress curve shows we are only team to suffer such a set-back.

 

[kcd_swede]

(I'll add rules against it after you do something I don't like).

Rule #1: This game is for everyone to have fun. Ulterior motives are allowed, as long as they remain secondary considerations.

------

Ensure that you have read and understood the rules below and those provided by the administrators (C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread)* and follow any ongoing discussion at the SGOTM 11 Maintenance Thread

We will follow a batting order as per team roster. The person who will play a turnset is designated "Up", and the next player is designated "On deck". Both these players should be active in the turn planning discussions prior to play. Actually everyone should be active, but especially those two.

Basically, the TEAM decides the strategy and agrees on a detailed plan. Who plays the turnset should make little/no difference in the turnset outcome. (I.E. DON'T IMPROVISE!). Note, as the game progresses and the number of details get overwhelming to discuss, turnset players will get more and more discretion on implementing the plan. But if you are unsure what to do, stop, save the game, and come back to the team thread to discuss options before progressing.

Before you start playing, please post a short plan for your turn set (aka Pre-Play-Plan), including the following topics: builds, military activity per theatre, tile improvements, research, civic switches, diplomatic actions and miscellaneously. Also describe the intent. You don't need to write a novel. A sentence or two for each topic will suffice. This will hopefully enable each player to feel more engagement. It is not intended to replace the incredible amount of interference advice from the rest of us -- not too formal about the form of ppp. Please use the same post for the PPP and mark updates with different color, or put the obsolete PPP in within spoiler tags. This will make it easier for us to keep track of updates/duplicates of the PPP. When you report from a turn set, please use one post. This will make it much easier for me to assemble the event post below. YOU ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO PLAY THE PLANNED SESSION UNTIL THE ACTING TEAM CAPTAIN GIVES YOU THE "GREEN LIGHT". He won't do so until there is clarity and consensus or a sort among the team. If there is no acting captain (or nobody designated by acting captain to be acting captain in his behalf), you need at least two other players to "greenlight" before you play... but in this very rare situation I will probably be dead, so I don't care that much... its for your own benefit.

We will use mid-turnset uploads during intense turn sets. (Previously called "pauses" ). If you are playing while other are online, please upload and the rest of us can review the save (typically an hour review period). In addition/complement to that, a player shall break after move of starting warrior, initial city settlement, writing discovered, alpha discovered, or something really exciting/unexpected happens, such as anyone declares on us . I don't want us to be too strict and pause for minor stuff, because that will have a negative impact on the flow of play for the player. It is important that everyone in the team feels they have the mandate to take decisions when we encounter opportunities without having to ask for advice. One example would be tech trade with AIs that we have agreed on to trade with.

No-one is forced to play a turn set. You don’t need to announce the reason for skipping a turn set. Any players can swap turn sets if they announce the swap in time. Since the captain has a memory capacity of a demented turnip with Alzheimer's, I urge you to make it clear when you intend to skip a turn. Please post as quick as possible to reduce unnecessary confusion and delays.

Please use smilies and emotes in your posts as much as possible. Jokes, humor, sarcasm and offensive language can and will be misinterpreted. Remember that written text is a poor method to convey feelings. Several of us are not native to the English language. The differences in culture is also a source for misunderstanding -- and the sun LITERALLY never sets on the Unusual Suspects. If you get upset by a post, please wait a few hours before you respond. With this in mind I would like to encourage all and everyone to trash talk to your hearts content, particularly when discussing impending "disasters". This goes back to Rule #1.

Don’t be afraid to post things that may appear stupid or evident. Each player have strengths and weaknesses. There are numerous examples in the earlier SGOTM threads when the most simple rule has been unknown to several of us (such as the difference between peace treaty and cease fire). Don’t be afraid that other members will think you are stupid. As a captain, I am obliged to post the most stupid questions to ensure that the rest of the team appear brighter.

Issues where we cannot reach consensus is resolved by the active player. Active player is not empowered to over-ride team concesus to enact his own minority opinion, though. If you run into a situation where you need advice, please upload the save and let the rest of us take a look. Or post a quick request for advice. It’s better to delay the game a day than build the Globe Theatre in the wrong city Don’t be afraid making mistakes though. We all screw up once in a while (some of us more often than others though )

Don’t promote units until they are close to action (unless the promotion increases movement). If you are unsure of suitable promotions, don’t hesitate to bring that up for discussion. We all have very different experiences from promotions, for example barrage/CR for cats, and combat vs other promotions.

Don’t play intoxicated (from alcohol, drugs or smoke). Don’t play when you are too tired. Or when you have your kids/wife screaming at you, or you are pressed for time.

Try to keep track of the diplomatic events each turn, and visit each city regularly. It’s mandatory to check cities that grow or have a border expansion. Remember that the number of happy people will change due to changes in war weariness (WW), gained/lost resources etc. Keep track of specialists. We don’t want to unnecessarily pollute the great person pool.

Ensure that you have the autosave settings to 1. Please contact AlanH if your game crashes after an irreversible action (include me in the private message), even if you can repeat all your moves.

If you PM the team, please ensure everyone receives a copy. Remember that a lot of players read what we post. Don't be rude or disrespectful to any player not on our team.

We will run some test games before we start, unless we don't. Your experience may either confirm or contradict some one else's, and is therefore valuable.

The goal for the Unusual Suspects is to win. Failing that, to end among the top three teams. Failing that, to end in the top half. Failing that, to avoid the wooden spoons. Failing that, to at least fulfill all stipulated victory conditions. Failing that, to... well, we aren't going to fail that badly so no need to go further. You get the picture.

This is the motto of the Captain: "You guys do the work so I don't have to"

If you play with a non-english version of the game, please provide a translation to English of the event log.

Suggestion: Don't forget to enable all BUFFY settings in case you lost them during a dual-install or whatever reason. And set the first-turn-setting to first turn = 0. This will reduce future confusion. Set MaxAutoSaves in CivilizationIV.ini to a value greater than the length of your turn set. Please remember to backup your autosaves after your turnset to enable review later.

When you state the turn/year research is completed (or any other event), please use the turn/year that is stated by the event log. Research for example is completed at the end of a turn. The pop up thus shows the turn after the tech is learned.

Keep track of AI's attitudes about DoWing and see if it changes to: "We have enough on our hands now." BUFY helps with this, note when you see it first show up. Maybe warrants a pause for discussion.

When the game is over, and the staff has confirmed it's over, you are free to read other team threads. When their game is over, and the staff has confirmed it, you are free to post in their threads as well.

Ok, if you have bothered to read this far, you are eligible to either a) ignore this crap or b) provide valuable comments (please send all complaints to Murky Water's captain!)

SPECIFIC FOR SGOTM11 Eldine's Return:

Great people: do not use any great person for any purpose without consensus from team
Civic switches: do not make any civic switches without consensus from team
Golden ages: pause at start and end to coordinate civic switches and strategy throughout


What else?
war: no DOW without unanimous team agreement
Defense Pacts: Don't even THINK about it!!!

More to be added as we find new and more creative ways to screw up.

 

[kcd_swede]

Right now I'm the acting team captain. If there's anyone else interested in the job, let me know (and I'll have you moved to abnother team) (just kidding). Seriously, you want to do the captain job, its yours for the asking.

Our team members (in batting order) are:
kcd_swede played t0-t18, t110-t140
Deckhand played t19-t52 UP now
Indiansmoke played t53-t94 On-deck
narri played t94 - t109
ETa inactive
classical_hero inactive
Vra379971 inactive

Welcome new Suspects narri and ETa. We're coming off a stunning Bronze Laurels performance in SGOTM10, but since former members Yamps and Steelhorse have not recovered from the celebrations yet, we have our work cut out for us to beat that showing. But the most important goal is for all Suspects to have fun and maybe learn a thing or two about the intricacies of the game.

If there are extended time periods up to August 27 that you will be unavailable, post in this thread.

Subscribe to this thread if you haven't already done so. Subscribe to SGOTM11 Maintenence Thread, too.

Everyone be sure to read the general SGOTM guidelines as linked by AlanH in the Maintenance and sign-up threads. I'll fill in the stuff in above two posts in a short while. (I'm thinking May 2015).

Let the strategy discussions begin!

 

[Deckhand]

Checking in.

And starting strategy discussion.
Settle in place - wouldn't want to settle on a resource .

Culture or Diplomacy? Suggest we keep both open at start. We are philosophic, so can get more great people. Can use generals as the greeters. Perhaps just generate artists. Someone has to design Eldine's costume.

We want Civ's to DoW us (one at a time). We can vassalize them to get population for diplomacy and generate our great generals attacking them.
Do we want an early religion to generate some animosity?
We want Lots of religions if we go for Culture.
Someone should research which is faster. Maybe checking HOF and xOTM results quickly reveal the answer.

Welcome to ETa and narri you have big shoes to fill.
and welcome back vra. Hope your health is good and RL is manageable.

this is my third SGOTM (all with unusual suspects)
I like to ask a lot of questions (that mostly get ignored)
and often try feebly to be humorous.

 

[kcd_swede]

OK... which looks fastest? UN Diplo or Culture victory?

Yamps suggested by PM that culture VC should be quicker, and suggested we read up on Jesusin's excellent strategy article regarding fast culture victories.

In my own personal games, my UN victories tend to be faster than my Culture victories.

In favor of UN victory is that you can always delay to the next vote if we haven't met the 4x2 things on the fur condition yet. Culture is very hard to put on the brakes, and we could find ourselves going legendary before our units can get there, or before we can get someone out of Free Religion.

Of course, a lot depends on the map set-up and opponents, so its too early to make a decision, but we should be at least thinking about what each VC would require to acheive as quickly as possible.

WHAT CAN GO HORRIBLY WRONG:
--A civ may adopt Free Religion on the turn we "win", and we only have that victory turn to shift them back, and it requires 5 turns before they can make another civics change so we are screwed.
--A City without our state religion in it flips to us on the turn we "win"... but we can disband so we aren't screwed unless we panic and do something stupid.



We need to connect fur, dye, silk, and ivory. This means we cannot under any circumstance get Industrialism, which obsoletes Ivory, nor Plastics which obsoletes Fur.

We need to have every AI still alive! Capturing cities will suffer "yearn to join motherland" unhappieness a long time.

Every AI must have and be running a state religion. That means best is to finish before the ones who have Free Religion as favorite civic get to Liberalism.

Only 2 AI can have "you declared on us" negative modifier. We need to be VERY careful about who we declare war upon. We should avoid it altogether at least until we know where all the needed resources are found. If war is the only way to get those resources and we already have 2 DOW's, its game over, folks. So early rush strategy is too risky to take. We take early REX strategy, imo.

We must spread our state religion to every one of OUR cities. Note, we can gift cities that don't have it if that is faster. Note, we want at least one monastary built before Sci Method.

NOTE: we NEED to build at least 4 warriors BEFORE they become obsolete, and then PROTECT THEM until the endgame.


Tactical: We should move warrior NW (keypad#7) and Settler SE (keypad#3) before making a settling decision, but from what I see now, the best place to settle is on that (suspiciously bare) plains hill SE(kp3). Maybe break up those two moves into seperate saves and discuss after each.

 

[Deckhand]

Thanks. Nice to have the rules summary in a short version.

NOTE: we NEED to build at least 4 warriors BEFORE they become obsolete, and then PROTECT THEM until the endgame.

This shouldn't be a problem: we should build a LOT more than 4. Whether HR garrisons or just garrisons. We should build at least 8 warriors.

Tactical: We should move warrior NW (keypad#7) and Settler SE (keypad#3) before making a settling decision, but from what I see now, the best place to settle is on that (suspiciously bare) plains hill SE(kp3). Maybe break up those two moves into separate saves and discuss after each.

Agree about moving warrior, disagree about moving settler.
We both settled on the copper in BOTM28

Spoiler :

I thought it would be horses.
Also note I haven't read any of the BOTM28 spoiler threads yet.

What are the general game allocations to starting positions?

Spoiler :

this is a serious question, thus it can be ignored; i really don't know

Two food (check) and two resources? If two resources, (and DS/EL didn't mess with map), then warrior is on one and the other is either SE, SS, or SSE.
You like to settle on plains hills. I like to settle on plains. I usually move my settler and regret it in xOTM. We lose one turn moving to SE if we settle there. But we lose 2 turns if we decide to return to start location.

Spoiler :

OTOH, it would be nice to know what's south before settling and moving to hill will get a good view

Spoiler :

now I've stayed up Way past my bedtime, good night

 

[classical_hero]

I am thinking that it will be fastest to get a cultural victory and we should be aiming for that from the start. So I am thinking that getting 3 religions is a must for this, so we can have three cities that will produce culture easily, with the Shrines we will be able to support our SE. Considering the rules, we would not want to get the game too close to Liberalism, so we can have every civ in a state religion. Considering that we need four warriors, we need make sure we have that many before we are to research BW, since it might be where we found our city, so it is better to be safe than sorry.

Expansion should be be a priority so that we certain to have the required resources, should they be around us. I do not expect the fur to near us, so that is going to be one war are going to have to have and hopefully it will be our only war.

Just to let you guys know,I will be away from the 3rd to the 16th of May.

 

[narri]

Checking in. My first SGOTM, how exciting! Hopefully with the (incessant) discussions we have I can play this Emperor-level game without looking like an idiot!

My thoughts:
Victory Condition
Culture has the advantage of more fine-grained control of when we win (so we can slip a turn or two rather than, say, 10!) by putting the culture slider back to 0 or not bombing the Great Artists we'll generate.
Diplo has the advantage of being in line with declaring war only twice. However, the condition of all AI have to have religion and be alive makes it harder to get the freindliness necessary to get votes (from mutual relgion and mutual miltary struggle). For now, I would hold off and scout our land and play to be in a winning position.

Victory Requirements - (aka, how will the makers screw us today?)
-All civs must have religion
Far AI's will have Free Religion favorite civic
Schwedwagon Paya may become a huge deal for denial purposes. Do AI's tend to go FR with it?
-All civs must be alive
STALIN will be right next to us (thus sending Erkon and DS to the fifth circle of hell )
Agressive AI's will be next to both us and peaceful AI's (so we have to rescue the punching bags)
-All of our cities have state religion
Not the biggest deal in the world, we want religion for either VC anyway.
-All of our cities have fur,dye,silk,ivory
My biggest fear by far: "fur is so rare that only one unique supply exists, and that is heavily guarded by the most vile barbarians" = guarded by modern armor or is on a one-tile Atlantis style island with machine guns. This could really mess people up if they need to get advanced bombardment just to get the fur!
Another fear: on the turn we win, ships blockade us for the loss (as those cities might lose trade route to a needed resource).
Don't be so hasty on declaring war if an AI has a monopoly on a non-fur resource! We ARE allowed to trade for the resources with AI (with the obvious risk of cancelled trade at the end).

Starting Position
I call to your attention 2SE of the settler. It looks like a tundra hill, if my fog-gazing is correct. On the other hand, this is the fractal map script, so it may mean absolutely nothing. Hell, it may even be the fur for all I know and the barbs may already be around! Maybe we should start making test games for the sole purpose of reproducing above screenshot. The plains hill does look suspiciously bare and obvious. I propose considering 1E as a possible move for the settler to get more river tiles for the cottaging. Though it's Epic, I have a feeling we don't want to waste too many moves as we may get started sooner than we think...

 

[kcd_swede]

Checking in. My first SGOTM, how exciting! Hopefully with the (incessant) discussions we have I can play this Emperor-level game without looking like an idiot!

Welcome aboard! I take full responsiblity for any idiocy that occurs here.

Culture has the advantage of more fine-grained control of when we win ...For now, I would hold off and scout our land and play to be in a winning position.

Agreed on both counts. is culture faster, though? It will depend a lot on the type of land... 3 good cottage cities are needed for speeded. I don't play Fractal enough to know whether we can expect good cottageable sites or not.

Schwedwagon Paya may become a huge deal for denial purposes. Do AI's tend to go FR with it?

Good catch. AI use Swedagone Paja to enter their favorite civic, generally. If that is Free Religion, it is a problem for us. If it is Org Rel fav civic, its no big deal. Lets see what civs we face and look at what's going on when the enabling techs are around (aesthetics and meditation). Gold would make it more attractive to build this WW in defensive purpose. But early Pacifism plus the culture bonus make this OK from a culture VC standpoint - not in GAFarm, though.

My biggest fear by far: "fur is so rare that only one unique supply exists, and that is heavily guarded by the most vile barbarians" = guarded by modern armor or is on a one-tile Atlantis style island with machine guns.

I'm thinking if will be a Mech Inf. In fact, I recall suggesting a similar idea in a discussion about game conditions with DS involved. Maybe more people listen to me than I ever imagined. (More than zero).

Another fear: on the turn we win, ships blockade us for the loss (as those cities might lose trade route to a needed resource).

Yeah, I should add this to the "what could go horribly wrong" list.

Don't be so hasty on declaring war if an AI has a monopoly on a non-fur resource! We ARE allowed to trade for the resources with AI (with the obvious risk of cancelled trade at the end).

Don't be hasty about any war! In fact, don't be hasty about anything.

Maybe we should start making test games for the sole purpose of reproducing above screenshot.

Wow! Way to step up Narri! First day on the team and you are volunteering for such an important and useful task for the team! Don't forget to make the test game save in BUFFY 3.19.003 mod.



You were volunteering, weren't you?

 

[ETa]

Greetings all. Of the 50+ games that I have completed there have been exactly 1 cultural, 1 diplo and 1 space victory just for the sake of seeing the endings. My philosophy is that peace is continuation of war by other means, so this should be pretty tough.

Victory cond:
IMO, generally diplo is easier (based on 1 sample), but I don't quite see how to do it before others get liberalism.

Starting position:

Is there a coast in 2SW and 2SW1NW? I would send the warrior 1NE and if we want to use one turn to scout with the settler to check the potential coast.

And if there is tundra in 2SE it would probably indicate that the AI's are to the north and east or the fur is right there . Anyway I would settle where the settler is, since it's plains although the hill would be easier to defend.

I would head to BW if this was a random map, but it does have risks here. So maybe Agr->Wheel->BW (~40-50 turns?). Build queue Warrior->Worker->Warrior->Settler with some adjustments if needed depending on the city growth.

 

[kcd_swede]

Rue the day I join the mapmaker staff at GOTM.

Here is a test save using same start tiles visible, same civ, same map and game settings (except I have not locked modified assets, so you get red warning reminder that this game is not valid for HoF use, and therefore there can be no mistaking it with the real thing). Also lets you cheat if you want, or open WB and see the extent of my evil without trying to play it through. But maybe we learn some useful things with a little practise, I don't know.

I have included my own interpretation of the victory requirements so you can try to win this if you really want to. However, its only correct compared to the real map within the visible tile area, so its value is limited, even just for optimizing the settling and first builds. Someone will make a new one when we know more territory and have to answer those questions anyhow. Enjoy (though unless you are masochist that might be problematic).

View attachment 250243

 

[Deckhand]

I would head to BW if this was a random map, but it does have risks here. So maybe Agr->Wheel->BW (~40-50 turns?). Build queue Warrior->Worker->Warrior->Settler with some adjustments if needed depending on the city growth.

Getting BW should be a priority, so we can chop all those nice forests. We don't have to mine the bronze right away. Even better is having one city that isn't connected to it.
But with those two corn, I agree with Agr first. {worker, warrior, warrior, settler}
If we had good starting commerce, I would lobby for an early religion. Instead, let's plan to get Confu and Taoism and a neighbor's.
We should be first to Philosophy and Liberalism - that will discourage the AIs from researching those. If there is a civ with Free Religion as their favorite then the game will be really challenging. Hopefully designers aren't that evil.
Also want Optics ASAP, we need it to find the fur and the rest of the civ's.

--- ---
In last GOTM, the winning team planned their great people from the start and focused on getting them efficiently. We need:
four for Eldine
3 scientists: academy, philosophy, education
n artists, where n is as big as it can be
m mechants for trade missions
p prophets for shrines (2 if we get confu & tao)
x for golden ages
y for what else?

and what is opportunity cost of each? e.g. does the shrine gold really make up for one less great artist?
another calculation: settling artists vs bombing them

 

[ETa]

Getting BW should be a priority, so we can chop all those nice forests. We don't have to mine the bronze right away.

I believe the argument is that the bronze will be automatically connected if it appears under the city but again on a random map such resource configuration does not look very common.

{worker, warrior, warrior, settler}

How do we use the worker before we have BW or wheel? There are 3 squares that we can improve with agriculture. As a scout?

 

[narri]

How do we use the worker before we have BW or wheel? There are 3 squares that we can improve with agriculture. As a scout?

That's not as half-baked as it sounds; we have fast workers, meaning we will always be able to move at least two squares a turn if the first move is not into a forested/jungled hill (see the current G-Minor)! Though I agree this won't be ideal, just tossing an idea out there for later.

 

[kcd_swede]

Its just to build a city that isn't connected to the capitol and not connected to its own metal source, and build warriors there, isn't it?

As for build worker first, then we are logically going for agri first, so we can improve best tiles first and most quickly. BW comes AFTER we have tons of food to whip.


Agri>BW

However, if you want to found early religion (Hindu, Bhuda, Judiasm), you won't get it going for worker tech first. I suggest a REX strategy since warring is out of the question and we'll need decent amounts of land. This also leaves a lot of small cities that catch spontaneous spread of nearby religions as long as we are (trade route accessible) connected to the civs with that religion.

This is Emperor level and I do not think founding one of the first 3 religions is ever a good strategy (with the exception of fast AP cheese wins, and even then its irrelevant whether you found them or not).

Confu, Tao, and maybe bulb Theo or DR if we want to found religions in a culture push... but by then its hard to direct which city gets the shrine.

Good strong opening moves (enable worker techs) with plan to REX like madmen. This gets us the needed land without conflict, and is flexible to adapt to either VC. Oracle might not even be worth the effort as a CS sling is very iffy here, and we get the mundane techs just as fast by skipping the med/priest stuff in favor of an alpha beeline imo.

But we are getting way ahead of ourselves...

I can move the warrior really quick once the saves are posted and we can then get a little more info on the settling plan to discuss. I think NW to defog as much as possible. Is there a better option to move warrrior to aid settling decision? Explain.

 

[kcd_swede]

In last GOTM, the winning team planned their great people from the start and focused on getting them efficiently. We need:
four for Eldine
3 scientists: academy, philosophy, education
n artists, where n is as big as it can be
m mechants for trade missions
p prophets for shrines (2 if we get confu & tao)
x for golden ages
y for what else?

and what is opportunity cost of each? e.g. does the shrine gold really make up for one less great artist?
another calculation: settling artists vs bombing them

Good ideas... you want to do the rudimentary stuff (spreadsheet is fine but not necessary)... how many GPP for each GP, and how to produce them?

Maybe work backwards... what turn do we expect to finish? How many GP's can we generate in that time? Optimally, the last four are for Eldine, not the first four.

Great Artists are good for evening out 3 legend cities, but a single GArt is worth maybe 2 turns in a good culture push. Its cottages and multipliers (Free Speech, Hermitage, and Catherdrals) that power a fast finish. Sistine is almost a must, too, at least if we want a shot at decent finish time.

If we go UN, we want some GS's to bulb through Electricity, and maybe some GA to buld radio/mass media, and a GE for building the UN. Then we need 4 more to save. And we want an academy in the Oxford capitol, right? Not unmanageable load since we are Philo... but Parth is worth a bit here, too. As is finding a GPFarm and building the Nat Epic quickly.

Either way we'll need nice neighbors, or else we do it the diplomation way as we provoke them to DOW us by demanding stuff from them every turn, and leave them a poorly defended crap city near their borders. Then they are our vassals when we kick them hard enough.

 

[Deckhand]

I can move the warrior really quick once the saves are posted and we can then get a little more info on the settling plan to discuss. I think NW to defog as much as possible. Is there a better option to move warrrior to aid settling decision? Explain.

NW probably defogs the most. But what could we learn that would aid the settling decision?
foggazing: NW,W; NW,NW; NW,N; NW,NW of warrior all look like plains.
What could he see that would affect our current recommendations of in place, E, SE?

We want: next to water, corn in BFC, max rivers in BFC and likely resource tiles in BFC - not the city

settle
SE: Stronger initial production, less later production, good chance of settling on resource
E: more rivers but gain plains and lose grassland, good chance of gaining tundra (SE, SE)
in place: maybe not best but won't know until resources known; looks like 8 grassland rivers for cottages, 1 grass hill and 2 plains hills for mines

maybe too wordy, "But what could we learn [by moving warrior] that would aid the settling decision?"

EDIT; Also, if we settle in place, then there would be room to put a city on coast if coast is just outside our view, this might not be possible if we settled toward coast.

 

[ETa]

We want: next to water, corn in BFC, max rivers in BFC and likely resource tiles in BFC - not the city

What is BFC?

 

[narri]

BFC = 20 squares outside your city center that citizens of that city can possibly work (assuming in your borders). Aka, the 5x5 square centered at the city center minus the four corners.