SGOTM 11 - Who Dat?

AlanH · Apr 20, 2010

BtS SGOTM 11 - Welcome the Goddess

Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 11 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

You are playing as Gandhi and, appropriately, your civilization is dedicated to the worship of the Goddess of Peace, Eldine, who will enter the world to bring in an era of everlasting happiness on the very day that you prove her righteousness to the world by securing a peaceful victory over the other civilizations. There is but one problem. Eldine is currently naked and must be clothed when she enters the world. In order to clothe her in a manner as befits a great Goddess, you must have access to fur, dye, silk and ivory. Your Holy books tell you that Eldine will use the fur as a portal through which to enter the world, and to demonstrate your devotion to her, you must have a welcoming party ready on the fur: Four great people (to symbolise Eldine's greatness) and four warriors (to symbolise the toil and labour as you raised Eldine's great civilization from a single settler). This will be no easy feat, since rumour has it that fur is so rare that only one unique supply exists, and that is heavily guarded by the most vile barbarians. Doubtless this was the result of meddling by the Devil Satan when the world was young and the Gods not paying sufficient attention.

Oh, and Eldine detests war and all its trappings. On the day she enters the world, she will question your brother and sister AI civs to ascertain how you have treated them, and will be distressed beyond belief should she discover that you have been excessively warlike towards them - in that case she will reject your civilization and look for more worthy worshippers.

Your aim in this game is to welcome in Eldine by securing a cultural or diplomatic victory that satisfies the following conditions:

Every AI is still alive and running a state religion.
All your cities have access to fur, dye, silk and ivory.
You have the welcoming party of four great people and four warriors standing ready on the only fur in the world. (The great people can be of any type)
You are running a state religion which has been spread to every one of your cities.
No more than two AIs have a 'you declared war on us' negative modifier towards you.

The winner of the competition is the team that secures the earliest (measured by date) cultural or diplomatic victory where all these conditions are satisfied on the turn of your victory. Obviously your game is forfeit should you lose the game or win by some other victory condition. If you win a cultural or diplomatic victory without satisfying all the conditions, your game will be listed and ranked within a secondary group for the amusement of other teams (especially if you do something silly that makes it impossible for you satisfy the conditions, like letting ivory become obsolete, or having fewer than 4 warriors when your tech becomes too advanced to let you build any more).

Timetable
The start files will be published on Friday, April 23 here. There will be one start file per team. Please ensure that you only download your own team file.

The finish deadline is August 23 2010. If any team has not finished by this date they will be deemed to have retired, and will not be eligible for any awards.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

Map Parameters

Playable Leader/Civ - Gandhi of India
Traits - Spiritual, Philosophical (starts with Mysticism and Mining)
Unique Unit - Fast Worker (replaces Worker)
Unique Building - Mausoleum (replaces Jail)
Starting Era - Ancient
Difficulty - Emperor
Game Speed - Epic (750 turns)
World size - Standard
Rivals - Six
Landform - Fractal
Sea level - Medium
Climate - Temperate
Other settings - No goodie huts, No events
Victory Conditions - All enabled

Notes

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV Beyond the Sword, version 3.19, using the HoF Mod BUFFY-3.19.003. This HoF Mod version is available here.

If a later BtS patch, or BUFFY version, is released during this game you will NOT be able to use it to play. You will need to complete this game in the above versions before updating your copy of BtS, or create and update a separate copy.

Mac players can only join in if they are able to run the Windows game on their system.
Awards
Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the Fastest victory that meets the above stated conditions, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.
Rules and Procedures
Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Have fun

beestar · Apr 20, 2010

Roster

orb
pnp_dredd
fluroscent
cas?
beestar<

TMIT
WithTea

Beg timer - can beg every ~30 turns

Justinian: T309
Saladin: T309
Toku: T270
Isabella: T240
Zara: T309
Mehmed: never begged ---> demand as needed

Turnset summary

Spoiler :

beestar · Apr 20, 2010

Timeline (25-turn blocks)

Spoiler :

AI Rivals

1. Zara of Ethiopia

Spoiler :

2. Justinian of Byzantium

Spoiler :

3. Saladin of Arabia. Founder of Hinduism.

Spoiler :

4. Isabella of Spain.

Spoiler :

5. Tokugawa of Japan.

Spoiler :

6. Mehmed II of Ottoman Empire.

Spoiler :

beestar · Apr 20, 2010

Wonders

Delhi: Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, Oxford University
Bombay: Oracle, Heroic Epic
Varanasi: National Epic
Istanbul: Parthenon, Great Wall
Edirne: United Nations

Upcoming:
Globe Theatre?
Forbidden Palace?

Resources

Fur (guarded by barbarians): WhoDat 1 (Zhou)
Silk: Mehmed 2, WhoDat 2 (Bursa, Samsun)
Dye: Isabella 4, WhoDat 1 (Bangalore)
Ivory: Justinian 3, Tokugawa 3, Zara 2, WhoDat 1 (trade)

Great People (future ones are in italics)

GG from war, greet Eldine
GS, greet Eldine
GSpy from Communism, greet Eldine
GM from GP Farm, greet Eldine

Cities That Still Need Hinduism

None

Cities Without Access To All 4 Special Resources

None

beestar · Apr 20, 2010

Hey Who Datters, welcome to the third SGOTM for our illustrious team. Remember we're on a trajectory to reach number zero this time around

I'll start the ball rolling ...

- From an organization point of view, I hope we can do pre-play-plans a bit more consistently than last game. Random things happen during turnsets, and that can't be planned for, but we had a few times where we didn't stick to the agreement at all. Better to thrash it out in discussion beforehand.

To do this without slowing down the game, I suggest the player who's up makes an effort to load the save and puts up a draft plan ASAP. It can be really sketchy or bad (I assure you mine will be

) but it gets the discussion going. No need to spend days coming up with the perfect plan.

(By the way, I was wrong in SGOTM10, apparently it's fine for multiple people to download the save and look at it, but they must be absolutely sure not to make any moves. Only the player who's up can make moves)

- I don't have a roster preference and arbitrarily suggest we go east to west again. I think this means pnp_dredd, fluro, orb, me, cas, TMIT, WithTea.

- As for the actual game ... in my mind, the biggest question is, cultural or UN victory? In my games, I feel that cultural victories are more under my own control, whereas diplo is a crapshoot. But maybe that's just because I'm not that good at diplo-manipulation. With the combined skills of our team, which is faster?

Good luck everyone!

Fluroscent · Apr 21, 2010

Checking in - Been looking forward to this :cool:

Nice to play with you guys for the second time, and of course TMIT and cas for the first time

Hopefully everyone stays reasonably active, so that we can draw on the strength of a full team.

Currently, I am trying to finish the challenge series in time (and style

), which means 5, 10 and a rerun at 6. Messed up my first attempt at the lakes domination, since I ended up 4% short after settling all the poles, and then crashed beyond recovery. Was such a nice start too, and on track for a 500AD finish :cry:

Oh well...

As for this game, I'll make a case for pursuing a diplomatic victory once the checking in is done, although we obviously need to be flexible in this kind of game.

I hope and think that we have enough know-how to seriously aim for the laurels. Last time was satisfactory, but frankly I'd be disappointed if we do not end up in the top three this time.
So, of course, we need to be adamant about using PPPs and not making rash decisions whenever something unexpected happens during a turnset.

I do not object to beestars roster suggestion.

orb · Apr 22, 2010

Orb checking in.

Glad to be back in another SGOTM.

I agree with Beestars comments. - I for one wont be connecting any iron in this game. :mischief:

Review map/ Post plan/ All comment/ Review plan based on comments/ Conduct plan/ Stop during turnset if something new happens.

BTW Beestar. - I've registered on Google. - I'll PM you tonight with my email address for the google docs option.

In terms of victory condition, I have used the Indians in the past for fast cultural. Never tried them for fast diplo, but the start is fairly similar so I think we can probably progress until we know who our AI enemies are, what the local geography is like and how many of the early religions we have managed to grab. (If any) - Difference for me is whether we push for a science super city to get to UN quickly or a Great Artists city to culture bomb to victory.

And just a quick brain dump:

In terms of the map - Current location looks decent. - Any reason not to move?

Also - In terms of the scenario....Where is the fur? - Lets prioritise exploration (land or sea) to see if we can settle the fur first.

Lets define the requirements of the scenario and work out our plan. :scan:

cas · Apr 22, 2010

Hello.
Just checking in.

Culture seems like it would be faster than diplo to me in general, but is always very dependent on the neighbors. And I'm sure there will be some lovely surprises regarding the needed resources. I don't know that we can commit one way or the other until we have a better understanding of the landscape/neighbors/resource locations.

Any reason not to settle on the plains hill 1SE for an extra hammer ? I think it makes up for the lost turn pretty quick.

Any roster order is fbm.

cas

pnp_dredd · Apr 22, 2010

Checking in. Great to be back.

I like cultural wins, so I'm pushing for that (for no other reason than I like 'em better). There's things to do early on for culture that we don't need to do for diplo (e.g. prioritise religions, setup 2 or 3 mass-cottage cities right away). We should decide on this before we decide what to tech first.

I reckon 1SE is the way to go. We'll lose 2 plains, 2 grasslands, 1 grass hill, 1 plains hill (city square) and whatever is SW-W of the settler (grassland?). Doesn't look like any of these are riverside (although we'll need to check with tile-yields on). We're gaining 1 plains (square the settler is on) and 6 other unknown tiles which wouldn't already be in our BFC.

The real danger would be if there is no production tiles to the SE. But if there's one more food bonus then we're likely looking at a GP farm anyway, and there's plenty of forests to chop early stuff.

Fluroscent · Apr 23, 2010

Just a few points that make me favor diplo.

-We need four GP at the end, thats four great artists we cannot use if we go culture. Quite a big hit.

-Going diplo means that we can get more free GP (Physics, Communism), which would seriously hurt culture, but allow us to bulb more if going diplo.

-We can expect to need astro (for furs, I'll be very suprised if it isn't needed), and possibly other advanced techs that are detrimental to culture wins.

-We may need late military, which would be easy on a diplo tech path, since we could easily get Military Science. Hard with a culture path, would cost a ton of beakers that could be culture.

-Diplo probably has to be played carefully whether we go for UN or culture. We may need friends to acquire the needed resources anyway.

-Culture is generally slower than diplo, unless the conditions are perfect (zero military games with peaceful opponents+ three great sites)

-Warfare in general hurts culture more than diplo, since production is more a bottleneck for culture than for diplo.

-Spiritual is an awesome trait for diplo

-I think we should do what is best, not what is easiest. We can surely figure out a way to win either way, and both VC's are very controllable.

Let us figure out where to move the warrior first. Settling on the PH is clearly best, given what we see now, but we may see something that would change our minds. Only thing that should be clear is that we settle with both corns. There are three options for the warrior in my mind: N, NW, SW

N looks bad. The only plot we could move the settler to would be the warrior tile, which would lose the river, PH and only see three new tiles.

NW looks like a gamble, we would reveal five tiles, but again, they would have to be really awesome to make us leave the river/PH.

SW reveals a tile in the current BFC which we cannot use if moving to the PH. We may entertain moving the settler 1S via the corn tile then. The warrirors 2nd move could then reveal much more, and if it does not look interesting enough, we can move back to the PH anyway and just lose a turn. With epic speed, this should be perfectly fine.

orb · Apr 23, 2010

OK. Well the save is up. If we go with beestar roster then pnp dredd gets first dabs. Pnp why don't you pick up the file and move the settler SE and post a screenie to show what we have available.

Once we have the city location then the first turn is just about revealing more map, setting the correct tech path and chosing the first build (worker anyone?). We will want a GP farm regardless of vic type so how about we tech for Budhism or Hinduism then go back for agriculture (which hopefully will fit in with the worker becoming available)

Anyone else?

BTW Has anyone heard from WithTea?

beestar · Apr 23, 2010

I got a PM from WT a while back to give his email address for the Google Docs spreadsheet (I encourage anyone else who hasn't done so to do the same - not much there yet but will be useful).

Let's get the 'checking in' posts from TMIT and WT before we move ahead. Though I agree that the only thing we really need to decide now is a Warrior move, and do it. No need to dive into detailed first turnset planning yet.

pnp_dredd · Apr 23, 2010

I like warrior SW, and then I can take a screenie with tile yields shown.

I'm happy to wait a few more days though, to get everyone checked in before starting anything.

Fluroscent · Apr 24, 2010

@beestar
Missed it from the other thread, does it have to be a gmail address?

@orb
Worker first is obviously correct, but I hate going for early religion. What we really want (after agriculture) is either BW or Wheel-Pottery, or AH/Hunting if there are such resources in the BFC.

This capital (+philo) seems well suited for generating a very early academy, so we might consider BW, then writing - 0%sci - chop library - generate GS - Alphabet at 100%. This is a strong early play in my book. Of course neighbours to trade with are needed for alpha to have early value, no point if we are isolated with Toku+Shaka :rolleyes:

beestar · Apr 25, 2010

Hi all, you have to have a gmail (google docs) account. But I think it doesn't necessarily have to be a gmail address.

beestar · Apr 25, 2010

Warrior moving SW looks fine to me, maybe we'll see something to tempt us not to settle the PH.

I'll bug WT and TMIT to get them to check in - would be good to make this first move ASAP, get some screenshots of tile yields, find out what direction that river is flowing, etc.

WithTea · Apr 25, 2010

Sorry I haven't been on top. Lucked out that I got the e-mail. Been fighting Chinese hackers (for real). They tried hijacking my gmail account from Guangzhou. It looks likely that they were after my kids WoW account ( a few level 80s). Unfortunately for them my stuff while once linked no longer has any cross over except at the LAN. So they got a big goose egg, but as I keep up to date on what's happening on my system I noticed the attempt. Been dealing with the techies at Google for the last couple of days.

On to more important things: SW for warrior. I'm going to put in my vote that we try for culture as the preliminary, and diplo as the back up. A large portion of the time when trying for diplo I end up just a few votes (by population not leader) short. Culture's easier to manage. Yes I feel more comfortable there as my HOF numbers are at least 5 to 1 culture over diplo. Would like to recommend MEGA ULTRA highly that we NEED MoM. The fifty percent boost to Golden Ages where we double the production all great people, let alone the other goodies is just going to be too important.

pnp_dredd · Apr 26, 2010

Warrior moved. The river is flowing SW into:

I've done my best fog-gazing. G=grassland; GH and PH = grass and plains hill; Pl = plains; W=water.

Settling in place will give us an uber-cottage city later on, and it'll be a great legendary capital. Moving onto the plains hill is a slight gamble in that we are giving up 3 grasslands, which won't be used for 5000 years.

I reckon we move settler to the plains hill.

beestar · Apr 26, 2010

I've always wondered what to call Plains Plains vs. Grassland Plains

That's a freshwater lake to our southwest, isn't it? I expect there's some seafood to the west in the ocean as well. If we settle the PH, then that leaves that lake/ocean area as a good high-food GP farm; although those 3F2C lighthoused lake tiles are weak in the long run, they are decent in the early days.

Fluroscent · Apr 26, 2010

It does not look like the warrior can reveal anything more of interest. Is the tile 2SE a peak? I am a bit worried that it seems we are being quietly discouraged from the PH.. Maybe there is a strategic resource in the open grass tile NW that the PH would miss?

Metagame: IF there is a metal resource, it may well be in that spot, which would prevent if from being automatically connected (and thus obsoleting warriors).

But still, with what we see, the PH is just a superior spot (As in, if it was a randomly generated map). We do not lose any tiles we can expect to be working anytime soon anyway, notably none of the river tiles. I think we should move the settler.

Speculation: The lake, and narrow land bridge, if there is seafood, could tentatively look like a nice GP farm too. If there is stone somewhere nearby, we could be looking at Pyramids early as a strong move.

Strategy: We do need to decide on a victory type before we really start playing. So many decisions are influenced by it.

I seem to be the minority when it comes to diplo. But I would like to hear some arguments on how culture is faster if I am to accept it :rolleyes:

That culture may be something we, as a group, are more familiar with, is a bad argument in my book. This is because, as this is a SGOTM in which every twist and turn is carefully analysed, manipulating the diplo picture correctly should not be a big problem. The limiting factor is most likely going to be finishing the UN (and possibly acquiring furs)
I also see the argument that culture is easier to manage. I think of it this way (for attempts at fast finishing): Culture is simple, but risky, since military is generally directly detrimental to fast finish. Diplo is more complicated, but much more robust in the face of surprises.

Anyways, I have already listed a bunch of reasons for diplo. So, um, lets discuss!

SGOTM 11 - Who Dat?

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BtS SGOTM 11 - Welcome the Goddess

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