Shoot the Moon
Playing World in Conflict
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Checking in, strictly as a lurker.
SGOTM 12 - Barley Demons
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Compromise
Emperor
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2006
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- 1,601
Welcome to the party Shoot the Moon!
Okay. I actually haven't tried running this yet, but here's a shot at a test game.
I used the SG12 Buffy mod.
I've put in the map information that we know. (No fog gazing.)
I've placed a unit by all the other AIs, declared war, deleted our unit, then replaced the fog.
I've deleted everything but a settler for each AI.
I've only put fallout around each player's starting position. I figure the test isn't good enough for more than that.
Actual in-game meet times should be shorter since fallout has a movement cost of 2 (like forest).
If I've messed something up, I will weep...but still let me know.
Okay. I actually haven't tried running this yet, but here's a shot at a test game.
I used the SG12 Buffy mod.
I've put in the map information that we know. (No fog gazing.)
I've placed a unit by all the other AIs, declared war, deleted our unit, then replaced the fog.
I've deleted everything but a settler for each AI.
I've only put fallout around each player's starting position. I figure the test isn't good enough for more than that.
Actual in-game meet times should be shorter since fallout has a movement cost of 2 (like forest).
If I've messed something up, I will weep...but still let me know.
SevenSpirits
Immortal?
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2007
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- 512
Without having looked at the save yet, I want to point out the the story is that "The survivors managed to reach pockets of relative low radiation to re-found their capitals." So I'm guessing the AI's immediate land is not significantly damaged. (That would be quite brutal for them without Ecology.) I think for a sim it would be perfectly safe to remove all fallout from AI BFCs.
Twinkletoes89
Warlord
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- Sep 8, 2010
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- 174
One thing I have just thought of - It doesn't seem to be NTT so could getting Alphabet be a decent move to trade for other techs and also find out what advanced techs everyone else has so we know what we are up against?
Jabah
Emperor
I am afraid that we will be missing the 'official' pre-requise to see what kind of modern tech they have.
But hopefully, we will be able to give them some old tech to make peace asap
regoarrarr
King
Shouldn't we be able to see what techs they can and cannot research from F4 - that will allow us to at least make some guesses.
Jabah
Emperor
Theorically it could be possible, but looking at the tech tree, we won't be able to see :
- any 'dead end' tech like Ecology
- any tech leading to tech that have 'hard' prerequise :ie Plastics allows Ecology (but need Biology) and Composite (but need Sattelite)
the 'only' modern tech we might be able to 'see' should be:
- Laser (if Fiber Optics showing)
- Computer (if FO, Robotics and Superconductor showing)
- Refrigeration (if Superconductor showing)
- Radio (if massmedia showing)
- electricity (if fission+radio showing)
- railroad (if combustion showing)
- physics (if electricity showing)
- chemistry (is Military science showing)
- education OR guild (if gunpowder showing)
- paper (if education showing)
- Theology or Civil Service (if paper showing)
that is more or less all the possibilities
- any 'dead end' tech like Ecology
- any tech leading to tech that have 'hard' prerequise :ie Plastics allows Ecology (but need Biology) and Composite (but need Sattelite)
the 'only' modern tech we might be able to 'see' should be:
- Laser (if Fiber Optics showing)
- Computer (if FO, Robotics and Superconductor showing)
- Refrigeration (if Superconductor showing)
- Radio (if massmedia showing)
- electricity (if fission+radio showing)
- railroad (if combustion showing)
- physics (if electricity showing)
- chemistry (is Military science showing)
- education OR guild (if gunpowder showing)
- paper (if education showing)
- Theology or Civil Service (if paper showing)
that is more or less all the possibilities
Compromise
Emperor
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I have downloaded the Start savegame and opened it. I get some "HoF not valid" warnings so I probably have to adjust some permissions with the mod folders or something.
I suggest that everyone who will (or might) be a turnplayer make sure that you can open the game without an "invalid" warning.
We are diplomatically in trouble with the AIs. -3 for declaring war. -2 for nuking them. (And another -3 for being at war with them right now.)
That said, I can see that we have Hunting, Mining and Ecology.
Also, Gandhi has Alphabet. (He can trade techs and can research Currency.)
The other AIs must have other techs because their scores are higher than ours and Gandhi's:
Does anyone know how to guesstimate more about the AI techs based on this information?
I suggest that everyone who will (or might) be a turnplayer make sure that you can open the game without an "invalid" warning.
We are diplomatically in trouble with the AIs. -3 for declaring war. -2 for nuking them. (And another -3 for being at war with them right now.)
That said, I can see that we have Hunting, Mining and Ecology.
Also, Gandhi has Alphabet. (He can trade techs and can research Currency.)
The other AIs must have other techs because their scores are higher than ours and Gandhi's:
Does anyone know how to guesstimate more about the AI techs based on this information?
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
The '1' on the right means that they all have 1 city. We have zero cities. The '!' means they will not talk to us and the crossed swords means they are at war with us. I should be able to leverage my BUG knowledge in this game 
.
We should be able to guess what techs they have from their score and power. Where is rego when you need him?
.We should be able to guess what techs they have from their score and power. Where is rego when you need him?
Compromise
Emperor
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Great to have a BUGuru on staff!
What does the:
47+47 mean?
What does the:
47+47 mean?
Compromise
Emperor
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Some administrative stuff.
I've edited Post #3 (my reference post) with those who've checked in so far. Let me know--either by PM or a post--if I've misplaced you in the turnplayer or lurker list.
Also, be sure to check out ruff_hi's reference post too.
I hope I have time tonight to run a couple test cases for the opening builds. Right now, I see good reasons to settle (a) NE, (b) N-NE, and (c) SE.
That last (c) is a weird one, but I'd like to see what happens if I plant a city there and go settler first followed by warriors and workboats. Just curious.
I've edited Post #3 (my reference post) with those who've checked in so far. Let me know--either by PM or a post--if I've misplaced you in the turnplayer or lurker list.
Also, be sure to check out ruff_hi's reference post too.
I hope I have time tonight to run a couple test cases for the opening builds. Right now, I see good reasons to settle (a) NE, (b) N-NE, and (c) SE.
That last (c) is a weird one, but I'd like to see what happens if I plant a city there and go settler first followed by warriors and workboats. Just curious.
regoarrarr
King
The '1' on the right means that they all have 1 city. We have zero cities. The '!' means they will not talk to us and the crossed swords means they are at war with us. I should be able to leverage my BUG knowledge in this game
We should be able to guess what techs they have from their score and power. Where is rego when you need him?
Yeah I'll definitely take a look at this tonight and see what I can figure out
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
That means that your current score is 47 and it has increased by 47 since the beginning of the turn. The green bit (red if it is negative) is the turn delta.
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
from the maintenance thread ...
Seems Old Russia have built The Manhattan Project.
regoarrarr
King
Okay a few ponderings from the demographics and such.
As Capn Compromise pointed out, Gandhi can trade techs and shows as being able to research 9 techs - Wheel, Ag, Currency, Masonry, AH, BW, Med, Poly, and Fishing.
That is consistent with him having Alphabet, Hunting and Archery (from it being Emperor), and his normal starting techs of Mining and Mysticism.
We have 47 points, all from Technology. We have 2 ancient (Hunting / Mining) and one Modern (Ecology), which is the 6th era. Each game has a different score amount for wonders, pop and tech, but if X points are given for each Ancient tech, then 6X are given for a Modern tech. So we have 8X=47, or X= to 6 (ish - there is some rounding involved).
So techs are worth between 5 and 6, which is a fairly common number.
So Gandhi - he has 4 Ancient and 1 Classical, so 35 or so points. His remaining 21 points come from 1 pop and the palace. We'll be able to tell for sure once we found our city.
On a related note, I don't know why Gandhi's techs on F4 don't show up in the Will Trade, Won't trade, Can't trade bucket? Is it related to us not having a city? Clearly he has at least Mysticism up on us.
So the other folks: They all have 21 from pop and palace. They should have Hunting, Archery, and their starting techs. That should be 24 for everyone except Stalin who would only get 18 from that since Hunting is one of his starting techs. Nobody will have any land points, and no wonders show as being built. Everyone only has 1 pop (from demogs), so it has to be technology.
So Stalin has 36, 30 for Mao and Churchill, and 24 for Rosy and De Gaulle. 36 could be 6 Ancient techs, or 1 Modern tech, etc. I don't know that we have any way of knowing that. Once we found our city, we might be able to rule out or confirm if it is any of the techs that we are able to research. Judging by the comment in the maintenance thread, it would not surprise me if Stalin's 36 points were Fission.
Demographic analysis coming up next. If the team thinks it's useful, and wants to provide either the saves each turn or screenshots from each turn, I could give this stuff a whirl at least for the first bit.
As Capn Compromise pointed out, Gandhi can trade techs and shows as being able to research 9 techs - Wheel, Ag, Currency, Masonry, AH, BW, Med, Poly, and Fishing.
That is consistent with him having Alphabet, Hunting and Archery (from it being Emperor), and his normal starting techs of Mining and Mysticism.
We have 47 points, all from Technology. We have 2 ancient (Hunting / Mining) and one Modern (Ecology), which is the 6th era. Each game has a different score amount for wonders, pop and tech, but if X points are given for each Ancient tech, then 6X are given for a Modern tech. So we have 8X=47, or X= to 6 (ish - there is some rounding involved).
So techs are worth between 5 and 6, which is a fairly common number.
So Gandhi - he has 4 Ancient and 1 Classical, so 35 or so points. His remaining 21 points come from 1 pop and the palace. We'll be able to tell for sure once we found our city.
On a related note, I don't know why Gandhi's techs on F4 don't show up in the Will Trade, Won't trade, Can't trade bucket? Is it related to us not having a city? Clearly he has at least Mysticism up on us.
So the other folks: They all have 21 from pop and palace. They should have Hunting, Archery, and their starting techs. That should be 24 for everyone except Stalin who would only get 18 from that since Hunting is one of his starting techs. Nobody will have any land points, and no wonders show as being built. Everyone only has 1 pop (from demogs), so it has to be technology.
So Stalin has 36, 30 for Mao and Churchill, and 24 for Rosy and De Gaulle. 36 could be 6 Ancient techs, or 1 Modern tech, etc. I don't know that we have any way of knowing that. Once we found our city, we might be able to rule out or confirm if it is any of the techs that we are able to research. Judging by the comment in the maintenance thread, it would not surprise me if Stalin's 36 points were Fission.
Demographic analysis coming up next. If the team thinks it's useful, and wants to provide either the saves each turn or screenshots from each turn, I could give this stuff a whirl at least for the first bit.
regoarrarr
King
Okay Demographics.
Population - as mentioned in the last post, best and worst is both 1000, which means all 6 of our opponents have settled their city (given) and have a population of 1.
Land Area - best 8000 and worst 5000 - means all (most?) of our opponents have coastal capitals (the exception would be a landlocked start with a lake tile). Average of 5666 means 34 total tiles, so 8, 5 and then 21 between the other 4 (which would seem to have to be 5-5-5-6). So that's 4 civs with 5 land tiles, 1 with 6 and 1 with 8.
Food and Prod are nothing out of the ordinary.
Soldiers - we have 4000, best is 230Keek, worst is 8000, and average is 47333, so that's a total of 284000. Hunting and Archery is 8000, Mining is 2K and Wheel is 4K. So from just starting techs, we should have Churchill, Gandhi, Stalin and Mao at 10K, De Gaulle at 12K, Rosy at 8K.
I think it's highly likely that Stalin is the 230K, so adding up the rest of them gives us 230 + 10 + 10+ 10 +12 + 8 or 280K. So we're missing 4K - we know there's no units and not enough pop to give soldier points so perhaps one of the missing techs is a 4K one (or 2 2K ones)
Approval rates are all 83s (5 happy 1 unhappy) except for 2 85s which are the 2 Charismatic leaders.
Life Expectancy is interesting. Best of 77 (7 healthy 2 unhealthy) and worst of 57 (4 healthy 3 unhealthy). So it seems that there is fallout near the AIs capitals as well.
For GNP best is 18 and worst is 16. There are no Creative opponents, so everyone just has 8 from palace, 1 free beaker, 1 from the city center, 4 EP and 2 culture, which is 16. I'm not sure why someone would get 18 unless it's pre-req bonus. That totally would make sense, but I was not sure if they would have picked a tech yet. I guess we can see once we hit enter and move on to the next turn.
Population - as mentioned in the last post, best and worst is both 1000, which means all 6 of our opponents have settled their city (given) and have a population of 1.
Land Area - best 8000 and worst 5000 - means all (most?) of our opponents have coastal capitals (the exception would be a landlocked start with a lake tile). Average of 5666 means 34 total tiles, so 8, 5 and then 21 between the other 4 (which would seem to have to be 5-5-5-6). So that's 4 civs with 5 land tiles, 1 with 6 and 1 with 8.
Food and Prod are nothing out of the ordinary.
Soldiers - we have 4000, best is 230K
eek, worst is 8000, and average is 47333, so that's a total of 284000. Hunting and Archery is 8000, Mining is 2K and Wheel is 4K. So from just starting techs, we should have Churchill, Gandhi, Stalin and Mao at 10K, De Gaulle at 12K, Rosy at 8K.I think it's highly likely that Stalin is the 230K, so adding up the rest of them gives us 230 + 10 + 10+ 10 +12 + 8 or 280K. So we're missing 4K - we know there's no units and not enough pop to give soldier points so perhaps one of the missing techs is a 4K one (or 2 2K ones)
Approval rates are all 83s (5 happy 1 unhappy) except for 2 85s which are the 2 Charismatic leaders.
Life Expectancy is interesting. Best of 77 (7 healthy 2 unhealthy) and worst of 57 (4 healthy 3 unhealthy). So it seems that there is fallout near the AIs capitals as well.
For GNP best is 18 and worst is 16. There are no Creative opponents, so everyone just has 8 from palace, 1 free beaker, 1 from the city center, 4 EP and 2 culture, which is 16. I'm not sure why someone would get 18 unless it's pre-req bonus. That totally would make sense, but I was not sure if they would have picked a tech yet. I guess we can see once we hit enter and move on to the next turn.
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
Wrong. There are no biological units. Thus there could be ... seige, airforce, navy, nukes(!), giant death robots (very unlikely on the last).
SevenSpirits
Immortal?
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2007
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Seems very likely that each enemy civ gets one extra tech. We'll probably find out one or two via civic switches next turn (like Mao/Communism maybe) and may be able to guess the rest from the theme.
Spoiler Techs by era :
Fission, curiously enough, is industrial. So either Stalin has both it and an extra ancient tech, or he has a non-fission modern tech. Are there any that make sense? If he doesn't have fission, it's possible someone else does.
DEFINITELY useful. We need to find out how good their land is at least in order to sim them out with any accuracy.
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
putting on my meta gaming hat, I wouldn't be surprised if Stalin has a few subs (28 power, able to carry 3 nukes) fully loaded with tactical nukes (30 power) ... if he has 1 combo of that, then that is 118 worth of power.
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