unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
Without actually testing, I agree that 1N of the lake looks like the best choice so far
SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Without actually testing, I agree that 1N of the lake looks like the best choice so far
Fluroscent
Emperor
I'd say the things that would make us change our mind on the lake city would be if the copper was right on that tile, or just outside that city's BFC. Or if the revealed tiles to the north suggest a better city site would be blocked by the lake city. So, by all means, go ahead and start scrubbing the tile, and when done return to start chopping.
Well, I am not sure that is true! If we revolt when we have rice we lose the turn we have rice compared to revolting to when we don't have rice. So, at the end for that single rice it either way you lose it for one turn.
It is better to revolt as soon as possible if we are going to revolt.
Fluroscent
Emperor
Well, we should have both Ag and BW before the next revolt is available, since we just revolted to Bur+Caste. But I don't think a revolt to slavery is worth it anyway, it can surely wait for our first golden age.havr said:
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Absolutely, i see no use of slavery in the mid term.
pnp_dredd
civ junkie
OK, the worker can clear the potential city site.
I plan to play tonight, but the motherinlaw is coming to visit from interstate, and while she's over my office is herlair bedroom. I should be able to play the set and post the log, but don't plan on lots of pretty pictures!
I plan to play tonight, but the motherinlaw is coming to visit from interstate, and while she's over my office is her
pnp_dredd
civ junkie
played 0 turns
Turn log:
I uploaded the save, and now pass the set onto the next player.
Ghandi was happy to take peace for Writing, AH and Priesthood!
However, we are his worst enemy at -5, so he won't currently trade anything.
He doesn't have BW, so we'll have something to trade in 5 turn's time (4 turns if we don't tech Agri first, but instead trade for it)
Gandi has contact with Roosevelt and Mao, so "we don't want to start trading that away just yet" shouldn't apply.
I stopped the set to see whether anyone had any brilliant ideas on how we can to allow tech trading? Ghandi will trade with us as long as we aren't his worst enemy, even at Furious.
His fav civic is Universal Suffrage, so that's not an option.
We could gift StP fora big + hit, but that doesn't seem like a good tradeoff.
Unfortunately no one else has adopted a religion.
Is there anything we can do to make him hate Roosy or Mao more than us?
Will "worst enemy" wear off? If so, how long does it take and what can we do to speed it up?
Turn log:
Spoiler :
I uploaded the save, and now pass the set onto the next player.
Ghandi was happy to take peace for Writing, AH and Priesthood!
However, we are his worst enemy at -5, so he won't currently trade anything.
He doesn't have BW, so we'll have something to trade in 5 turn's time (4 turns if we don't tech Agri first, but instead trade for it)
Gandi has contact with Roosevelt and Mao, so "we don't want to start trading that away just yet" shouldn't apply.
I stopped the set to see whether anyone had any brilliant ideas on how we can to allow tech trading? Ghandi will trade with us as long as we aren't his worst enemy, even at Furious.
His fav civic is Universal Suffrage, so that's not an option.
We could gift StP fora big + hit, but that doesn't seem like a good tradeoff.
Unfortunately no one else has adopted a religion.
Is there anything we can do to make him hate Roosy or Mao more than us?
Will "worst enemy" wear off? If so, how long does it take and what can we do to speed it up?
beestar
subdeity
That's quite a turnset 
I think there's not much we can do except extravagantly gift techs, and wait to adopt his religion. I see we can't even get +2 Open Borders.
I assume he's unlikely to be bribed into war against us in the meantime ...
I think there's not much we can do except extravagantly gift techs, and wait to adopt his religion. I see we can't even get +2 Open Borders.
I assume he's unlikely to be bribed into war against us in the meantime ...
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Do have i to consider this as a TS?
IMO Pnp will play a real TS later, so i consider this a swap.
Volunteers for next one, please, it's late.
IMO Pnp will play a real TS later, so i consider this a swap.
Volunteers for next one, please, it's late.
Here is an idea: is maybe to pick up of his favorite religion and hope that Mao or Roosavelt will pick another one. We then plot a religious war and make him a new worst enemy.
To get his religion we need some trade contact with him.
Hopefully sailing will be enough.
beestar
subdeity
I've had a look at the save and I could do the next turnset. We do need to think carefully about the medium term before plowing ahead with lots of short turnsets though. Having said that, some short term comments ...
Economy: We are OK now, but we will need cottages or domestic trade routes before long, to pay for maintenance. We are at our happy cap in Moscow, and our options are Monarchy, Forges, Confucian Temples, or grabbing the Ivory elephants. I think the first step is to hook up the Ivory.
Expansion: De Gaulle is on our landmass, he has 3 cities, and Paris is 2N of the corn. We appear to have lots of decent land to grow into, though it will take a lot of worker turns to clear. I think warring on France is a good move - we can capture Paris and one of his other cities, and leave him a small rump city. Not sure when the best time for this is. Horse Archers? Elephants + Catapults? Swords + Catapults? We don't know if we have Copper or Iron yet.
Roosevelt built GLH in Washington but we have no idea where that is.
More Chariot scouting is critical.
Tech path Agriculture and BW in the short term. Alphabet will be good so we can trade techs for peace with the AI, and get better visibility into how advanced our competitors are. We should bulb Philo with a GS but it's not urgent. I don't think Monarchy is urgent either. We need to backfill Pottery, and probably Sailing, but trading for them seems very unlikely.
Do we have a high enough power rating to demand techs from Gandhi after peace treaty expires? I suppose we want to cultivate him as our only friend.
Wonders: I always like GLib especially since our last few Who Dat SGOTMs have been a bulb-heavy Caste/Pacifism type of tech path. SoZ might be a win, need to review the mechanics. Not sure what else is worthwhile ...
Economy: We are OK now, but we will need cottages or domestic trade routes before long, to pay for maintenance. We are at our happy cap in Moscow, and our options are Monarchy, Forges, Confucian Temples, or grabbing the Ivory elephants. I think the first step is to hook up the Ivory.
Expansion: De Gaulle is on our landmass, he has 3 cities, and Paris is 2N of the corn. We appear to have lots of decent land to grow into, though it will take a lot of worker turns to clear. I think warring on France is a good move - we can capture Paris and one of his other cities, and leave him a small rump city. Not sure when the best time for this is. Horse Archers? Elephants + Catapults? Swords + Catapults? We don't know if we have Copper or Iron yet.
Roosevelt built GLH in Washington but we have no idea where that is.
More Chariot scouting is critical.
Tech path Agriculture and BW in the short term. Alphabet will be good so we can trade techs for peace with the AI, and get better visibility into how advanced our competitors are. We should bulb Philo with a GS but it's not urgent. I don't think Monarchy is urgent either. We need to backfill Pottery, and probably Sailing, but trading for them seems very unlikely.
Do we have a high enough power rating to demand techs from Gandhi after peace treaty expires? I suppose we want to cultivate him as our only friend.
Wonders: I always like GLib especially since our last few Who Dat SGOTMs have been a bulb-heavy Caste/Pacifism type of tech path. SoZ might be a win, need to review the mechanics. Not sure what else is worthwhile ...
beestar
subdeity
By the way, I looked into the classic Krikkitone war weariness article. (The OP is about Vanilla 1.61, but later comments discuss BTS changes).
Basically, you only get war weariness for fighting in tiles you don't culturally-control. There is no increase of WW over time, only a decrease, so a prolonged period of war with the AI won't hurt us.
We don't appear to have any WW from the wars (as verified by hovering over the other AIs' names in the scoreboard). So I think the modern armor vs. warrior battles were fought in our own territory, i.e. no WW was acquired.
Launching nukes increases WW for the launcher (+12) and for the receiver (+3), but oddly that doesn't show up. Maybe Erkon removed the nuking WW before the game started.
Is the AI suffering from WW? It's not possible to see the AIs' war weariness so it's hard to tell, but I suppose if our warriors fought their Modern Armor in our territory, then the AI might have some WW (even a victorious battle accumulates WW). I ran some calculations using Krikkitone's formula, and I doubt the WW is enough to cramp the AI, especially in the early game when populations are so small. It's probably less than 10% unhappiness for the AI.
Conclusion: even if the AI builds the Statue of Zeus it won't hurt us. We might put a small dent in AI happiness if we build it (maybe 1 unhappy face in a pop-6 city), but that will go away over time, especially if no battles are fought. I don't think WW is a factor and I don't think we should build the SoZ, nor should we fear it. The only use I can see is as a source of failure gold (build is accelerated by Ivory).
Basically, you only get war weariness for fighting in tiles you don't culturally-control. There is no increase of WW over time, only a decrease, so a prolonged period of war with the AI won't hurt us.
We don't appear to have any WW from the wars (as verified by hovering over the other AIs' names in the scoreboard). So I think the modern armor vs. warrior battles were fought in our own territory, i.e. no WW was acquired.
Launching nukes increases WW for the launcher (+12) and for the receiver (+3), but oddly that doesn't show up. Maybe Erkon removed the nuking WW before the game started.
Is the AI suffering from WW? It's not possible to see the AIs' war weariness so it's hard to tell, but I suppose if our warriors fought their Modern Armor in our territory, then the AI might have some WW (even a victorious battle accumulates WW). I ran some calculations using Krikkitone's formula, and I doubt the WW is enough to cramp the AI, especially in the early game when populations are so small. It's probably less than 10% unhappiness for the AI.
Conclusion: even if the AI builds the Statue of Zeus it won't hurt us. We might put a small dent in AI happiness if we build it (maybe 1 unhappy face in a pop-6 city), but that will go away over time, especially if no battles are fought. I don't think WW is a factor and I don't think we should build the SoZ, nor should we fear it. The only use I can see is as a source of failure gold (build is accelerated by Ivory).
beestar
subdeity
Okay, here's a 9 turn set PPP, with an early pause if copper is revealed in a location that affects City3's location. I've followed the discussion of the last few pages and mostly I've followed what pnp_dredd suggested (except for the cottage building ). I could play by Friday night, so comments in the next 24 hours please.
City builds: I propose generating the next worker in Moscow instead of St. P, so St. P can continue to grow and put out a workboat to start exploring (southeast?). If we go worker-settler in Moscow, then I think the settler gets to the City3 tile too early - no good defallouted tiles to work.
Moscow. Bur cap production/gold-commerce
- Finish worker 3 (2 turns)
- Worker 4 (3 turns)
- Settler to keep at happy cap (4 turns)
- Confucian Temple when religion spreads, for happy cap
- Confucian Monastery when religion spreads, for extra science
St. Pete's. This could be our shrine city (cottages) or it could be a production city powered by farms/mines.
- Finish chariot 2 (2 turns)
- exploring WB (<5 turns) to continue growth
- Not sure what next - Barracks? Worker 5?
City 3 will capture the ivory and be a moderate production city.
We don't yet have a proper GP farm site, and none is clearly visible.
Units
Workers: Two workers to farm the rice, Other two workers to road to the 1N-Of-Lake city and start cleaning fallout in those tiles.
Missionary: wait for auto-spread to Moscow, do not trigger.
Chariot #1 to carefully check out French lands. Chariot #2 to investigate the north. This is as per pnp_dredd's plan.
Tech path: We are currently earning 72 bpt at breakeven (90% slider). We finish Agriculture in 1 turn, then get BW in 2 turns. I say we go for Alphabet (6 turns) so we can trade techs for peace.
GPP and Espionage: Note that we are not particularly farming a GS at this point. We are very slowly getting a GPro due to Oracle GPPs. We continue to spy on Gandhi.
Questions
Q1. Religion: Shall we convert to Confucianism once it spreads to Moscow? We really could use a higher happy cap, and the only downside is diplo negs with Gandhi (who won't trade with us anyway). Gandhi is unlikely to declare on us. There seems to be little downside risk to converting.
Q2. Chopping: Just to confirm, what are we chopping for - the settler in Moscow?
). I could play by Friday night, so comments in the next 24 hours please.City builds: I propose generating the next worker in Moscow instead of St. P, so St. P can continue to grow and put out a workboat to start exploring (southeast?). If we go worker-settler in Moscow, then I think the settler gets to the City3 tile too early - no good defallouted tiles to work.
Moscow. Bur cap production/gold-commerce
- Finish worker 3 (2 turns)
- Worker 4 (3 turns)
- Settler to keep at happy cap (4 turns)
- Confucian Temple when religion spreads, for happy cap
- Confucian Monastery when religion spreads, for extra science
St. Pete's. This could be our shrine city (cottages) or it could be a production city powered by farms/mines.
- Finish chariot 2 (2 turns)
- exploring WB (<5 turns) to continue growth
- Not sure what next - Barracks? Worker 5?
City 3 will capture the ivory and be a moderate production city.
We don't yet have a proper GP farm site, and none is clearly visible.
Units
Workers: Two workers to farm the rice, Other two workers to road to the 1N-Of-Lake city and start cleaning fallout in those tiles.
Missionary: wait for auto-spread to Moscow, do not trigger.
Chariot #1 to carefully check out French lands. Chariot #2 to investigate the north. This is as per pnp_dredd's plan.
Tech path: We are currently earning 72 bpt at breakeven (90% slider). We finish Agriculture in 1 turn, then get BW in 2 turns. I say we go for Alphabet (6 turns) so we can trade techs for peace.
GPP and Espionage: Note that we are not particularly farming a GS at this point. We are very slowly getting a GPro due to Oracle GPPs. We continue to spy on Gandhi.
Questions
Q1. Religion: Shall we convert to Confucianism once it spreads to Moscow? We really could use a higher happy cap, and the only downside is diplo negs with Gandhi (who won't trade with us anyway). Gandhi is unlikely to declare on us. There seems to be little downside risk to converting.
Q2. Chopping: Just to confirm, what are we chopping for - the settler in Moscow?
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
It's a good plan, some answer:
we must optimize our choppings to get the best out of our traits: settlers and libraries.
Even if StPete lack good commerce, a library there is needed, to build a Uni for OU. Or to hire some sci. Or to build the GLib there.
In my tests Confu always auto spreaded before CS, let's wait. Once it spreads we convert. We can benefit of the happiness now and later of the OR/Pacif. bonuses.
I tink there's no other chance that settle between the lake and the cows: good production, decent food, not great commerce. But that city can work some cottage for Moscow. I hope there's more land north.
In the mid term we can plan to take Paris, hoping the other cities are fairly distant.
IMO, forget any tech trade. Only peace deals. So, let's skip Alpha until we have pottery and sailing. No exploring WBs, wasted hammers. Triremes, possibly.
we must optimize our choppings to get the best out of our traits: settlers and libraries.
Even if StPete lack good commerce, a library there is needed, to build a Uni for OU. Or to hire some sci. Or to build the GLib there.
In my tests Confu always auto spreaded before CS, let's wait. Once it spreads we convert. We can benefit of the happiness now and later of the OR/Pacif. bonuses.
I tink there's no other chance that settle between the lake and the cows: good production, decent food, not great commerce. But that city can work some cottage for Moscow. I hope there's more land north.
In the mid term we can plan to take Paris, hoping the other cities are fairly distant.
IMO, forget any tech trade. Only peace deals. So, let's skip Alpha until we have pottery and sailing. No exploring WBs, wasted hammers. Triremes, possibly.
beestar
subdeity
Alphabet is for peace deals. When we have Alphabet, we can give away techs for peace.
Do we need the library soon? St. Pete doesn't have a lot of surplus food to run scientists, nor does it have a lot of commerce, so I think it can wait.
An exploring WB is really useful, especially with no barb galleys to worry about. Metal Casting always feels too off-track and I don't think we would have Triremes very soon.
Do we need the library soon? St. Pete doesn't have a lot of surplus food to run scientists, nor does it have a lot of commerce, so I think it can wait.
An exploring WB is really useful, especially with no barb galleys to worry about. Metal Casting always feels too off-track and I don't think we would have Triremes very soon.
Fluroscent
Emperor
I hope you want to continue a bit, since 15-20 turn sets are probably better in the long run. But 9 turns are probably good for an update/plan review.beestar said:
IMO, this is not certain (unless the chariots have moved since..), so we should not waste time deciding on war or not until we know how to get to Paris.beestar said:
I'd consider swapping worker 4 with settler, to get the lake city running sooner.beestar said:
Agree with BLubmuz, a workboat is hardly worth it at this point. I'd build a worker after the chariot, and then a granary, and then probably barracks->military (with a library somewhere).beestar said:
Lets keep doing binary from now on, to avoid rounding loss. So do 1 turn of 0% science to build gold, then 100%.beestar said:
We need pottery, so Ag-BW-pottery. And I think sailing is worth it too.
I'd rather try to trade for alpha, by getting Gandhi happy enough to trade, by gifting techs for +4. Should be doable, although probably wise to test. I don't think Gandhi usually keeps a worst enemy for just -1.
Perhaps we need to be a bit more careful about the tech path, and make sure we do the right thing before launching into something expensive. Perhaps pause after pottery or sailing to discuss further. Currency would be my immediate choice.
We want pottery so we can open with granary in lake city+ any new cities. And we DO need those cottages in Moscow, the sooner the better, since the bureaucracy capital multiplies commerce the way it does (before science conversion). What else is there to grow on to when we raise the cap anyway? And why not chop those forests asap? we have math, and right now we can surely use those hammers, with several useful builds available. Surely we cannot delay the cottages until Oxford time.
beestar
subdeity
I could do 15 turns - probably will be a pause after 9 or so. Revised below (with arguments 
)
Tech If we trade for Alphabet, that means we need to give Gandhi some techs for +4 fair trade. Then, we need to give him a big tech to receive Alphabet (this is only CoL or CS!). Gandhi's friendly with the other AIs, and we risk leaking techs to the other AIs over the medium term as a result.
On the other hand, the other AIs don't have Alphabet, so if we tech it, they might accept Alphabet (or even something lesser) in exchange for peace. We can't do ANY tech-for-peace trade without getting Alphabet first.
OK with chopping into settlers/libraries, binary research, and Pottery as a priority. I'm not seeing a priority for sailing except for Lighthouses.So, my revised suggested tech path: Agriculture, BW, Pottery, Alphabet.
Builds: I don't think the early Settler is useful - it takes 5 turns to scrub the city tile, and even after founding City 3 will have nothing to work (unless it borrows the fish tile from Moscow ... in which case we need worker turns to improve another tile for Moscow anyway)
In the bigger picture, knowledge is critical. Exploration tells us what our plan needs to be for the entire game. Right now we're doing great on short term tactics (great CS sligng!). We also need to think about our strategic decisions on building wonders, expansion vs. conquest, convert De Gaulle vs. kill him, Gandhi as an ally, etc. are being guided by our assumptions. Early knowledge from an exploring workboat will help us with the finish date. Early knowledge is as important as early granary.
Take the example of WhoDat SGOTM11. We didn't know where the Silk and Dye were until very late in the game, and by that time we were constrained into a late war with Mehmed.
How else are we going to plan the middle/late game? Revised builds:
Moscow: Worker 3, Worker 4, Settler, (Confucian Temple)
St.Pete: Chariot, WB, Granary, Barracks
City3: Granary
P.S. Looking at the bottom of the map in close zoom shows that De Gaulle is on the same land mass.
)Tech If we trade for Alphabet, that means we need to give Gandhi some techs for +4 fair trade. Then, we need to give him a big tech to receive Alphabet (this is only CoL or CS!). Gandhi's friendly with the other AIs, and we risk leaking techs to the other AIs over the medium term as a result.
On the other hand, the other AIs don't have Alphabet, so if we tech it, they might accept Alphabet (or even something lesser) in exchange for peace. We can't do ANY tech-for-peace trade without getting Alphabet first.
OK with chopping into settlers/libraries, binary research, and Pottery as a priority. I'm not seeing a priority for sailing except for Lighthouses.So, my revised suggested tech path: Agriculture, BW, Pottery, Alphabet.
Builds: I don't think the early Settler is useful - it takes 5 turns to scrub the city tile, and even after founding City 3 will have nothing to work (unless it borrows the fish tile from Moscow ... in which case we need worker turns to improve another tile for Moscow anyway)
In the bigger picture, knowledge is critical. Exploration tells us what our plan needs to be for the entire game. Right now we're doing great on short term tactics (great CS sligng!). We also need to think about our strategic decisions on building wonders, expansion vs. conquest, convert De Gaulle vs. kill him, Gandhi as an ally, etc. are being guided by our assumptions. Early knowledge from an exploring workboat will help us with the finish date. Early knowledge is as important as early granary.
Take the example of WhoDat SGOTM11. We didn't know where the Silk and Dye were until very late in the game, and by that time we were constrained into a late war with Mehmed.
How else are we going to plan the middle/late game? Revised builds:
Moscow: Worker 3, Worker 4, Settler, (Confucian Temple)
St.Pete: Chariot, WB, Granary, Barracks
City3: Granary
P.S. Looking at the bottom of the map in close zoom shows that De Gaulle is on the same land mass.
Fluroscent
Emperor
I can accept the Moscow build, but I still think we need another worker asap, so maybe StP: Chariot, worker, WB, granary?
I can see the use of the exploring workboat, but I will maintain that it is not a super priority, simply because there is not much useful info we can obtain that the chariots scouting cannot tell us.
Normally, wb scouting has a very monetary benefit of overseas trade routes, but since it will take a while for us to get open borders with anyone, that can wait.
And honestly, what decisions we could make now would be affected by knowing something about off coast AIs? It is not a useful comparison with last game, since that game had some more specific "short term" goals that we don't have here.
Right now, it looks like we will be going for a classic space game tactic of trying to get Oxford soon while possibly attacking our neighbour for land.
I maintain that we will learn what we need to by the chariots scouting, so the extra worker takes priority over a scouting workboat. It is more instrumental in accomplishing our immediate REX goals.
About Alphabet: I agree it is an easy way to make peace, but what is the value of said peace? With Gandhi, it makes sense, since he will trade with us when we lose the worst enemy status. Alphabet is a lot of beakers to be gained freely in trade, and if we could give CoL to get him happy, then we could use aesth/construction/currency or whatever we research to trade for it, which is not that far away (IF getting Gandhi to trade with a CoL gift is possible). Then we could get peace around the board, which probably would be every bit as good as getting it a bit earlier.
So we should really test this gifting before deciding on alpha or not.
I can see the use of the exploring workboat, but I will maintain that it is not a super priority, simply because there is not much useful info we can obtain that the chariots scouting cannot tell us.
Normally, wb scouting has a very monetary benefit of overseas trade routes, but since it will take a while for us to get open borders with anyone, that can wait.
And honestly, what decisions we could make now would be affected by knowing something about off coast AIs? It is not a useful comparison with last game, since that game had some more specific "short term" goals that we don't have here.
Right now, it looks like we will be going for a classic space game tactic of trying to get Oxford soon while possibly attacking our neighbour for land.
I maintain that we will learn what we need to by the chariots scouting, so the extra worker takes priority over a scouting workboat. It is more instrumental in accomplishing our immediate REX goals.
About Alphabet: I agree it is an easy way to make peace, but what is the value of said peace? With Gandhi, it makes sense, since he will trade with us when we lose the worst enemy status. Alphabet is a lot of beakers to be gained freely in trade, and if we could give CoL to get him happy, then we could use aesth/construction/currency or whatever we research to trade for it, which is not that far away (IF getting Gandhi to trade with a CoL gift is possible). Then we could get peace around the board, which probably would be every bit as good as getting it a bit earlier.
So we should really test this gifting before deciding on alpha or not.
pnp_dredd
civ junkie
I'm with Fluro. An early WB isn't as important as more worker turns, to help get the 3rd city up faster. I would perhaps prefer to wait till we can build a galley, which could also be useful in defending against overseas raids.
Getting that 3rd city up fastest is vital. Pretty soon we'll be trading off building settlers and military, and racing for 6 cities through expansion or conquest. Getting that 3rd city up means more hammers sooner. More workers is very important.
I agree on Agriculture, BW, Pottery. But I think we need to evaluate our options after that.
Alphabet gains us the possibility of peace, which isn't really worth anything at this stage. Once the AI gets some serious military techs then perhaps we'll need to worry about invasions, but not yet. Earlier alpha may allow better relations sooner, which could mean earlier map or tech trades, which could be important. Alpha also allows building research, but I think we have better uses for hammers right at the moment. So there are some benefits, but we need to trade these off against more immediate gains.
What are some other options?
To focus on gaining hammer efficiency:
poly-aesth-lit for HEpic then
masonry-construction for efficient military (Elepults)
Other benefits of this path: opens NEpic, and some wonders
Time: around 20 turns
To focus on commerce/beakers:
currency (7-8 turns) then
beeline for Oxford (~45 turns)
To build larger cities (i.e. happiness):
sailing-calendar
perhaps monarchy
then to take advantage of extra pop:
poly-aesth-lit for NEpic
philo for pacifism
Other advantages: Extra commerce from resources, allows some wonders, HEpic, monopolise religions, trades with AIs can create good will.
Time: ~30 turns
Of course, there are other options too. But we can't wait too long to head towards Education.
My opinion: I like the HEpic + Elepult option because capturing non-fallout French lands early is vital, and this is a very hammer efficient way of doing so. It's probably worth getting currency too, because it's fairly cheap, and if so, we may as well get currency first to maximise the gold that we get from trade routes.
I think that's all that we can afford (35-30 turns) before heading to Education.
Alternately, all this stuff is relatively cheaper when we get Oxford, so perhaps we are better beelining Education with the help of a GS, and building our 6 cities rather than stealing them? Then we can do some serious backfilling at a discount rate.
Getting that 3rd city up fastest is vital. Pretty soon we'll be trading off building settlers and military, and racing for 6 cities through expansion or conquest. Getting that 3rd city up means more hammers sooner. More workers is very important.
I agree on Agriculture, BW, Pottery. But I think we need to evaluate our options after that.
Alphabet gains us the possibility of peace, which isn't really worth anything at this stage. Once the AI gets some serious military techs then perhaps we'll need to worry about invasions, but not yet. Earlier alpha may allow better relations sooner, which could mean earlier map or tech trades, which could be important. Alpha also allows building research, but I think we have better uses for hammers right at the moment. So there are some benefits, but we need to trade these off against more immediate gains.
What are some other options?
To focus on gaining hammer efficiency:
poly-aesth-lit for HEpic then
masonry-construction for efficient military (Elepults)
Other benefits of this path: opens NEpic, and some wonders
Time: around 20 turns
To focus on commerce/beakers:
currency (7-8 turns) then
beeline for Oxford (~45 turns)
To build larger cities (i.e. happiness):
sailing-calendar
perhaps monarchy
then to take advantage of extra pop:
poly-aesth-lit for NEpic
philo for pacifism
Other advantages: Extra commerce from resources, allows some wonders, HEpic, monopolise religions, trades with AIs can create good will.
Time: ~30 turns
Of course, there are other options too. But we can't wait too long to head towards Education.
My opinion: I like the HEpic + Elepult option because capturing non-fallout French lands early is vital, and this is a very hammer efficient way of doing so. It's probably worth getting currency too, because it's fairly cheap, and if so, we may as well get currency first to maximise the gold that we get from trade routes.
I think that's all that we can afford (35-30 turns) before heading to Education.
Alternately, all this stuff is relatively cheaper when we get Oxford, so perhaps we are better beelining Education with the help of a GS, and building our 6 cities rather than stealing them? Then we can do some serious backfilling at a discount rate.
beestar
subdeity
Fluro said:
I agree that it's possible, but do we really want to trade away something as valuable as CoL to Gandhi just to get him happy and to acquire Alphabet? That's a lot of beakers we are spending on making Gandhi happy, only to risk him handing them out to the other AIs. Better to keep him and the rest of the gang backward for now. Later on Gandhi can be our best bud, when we have built more of a tech lead on the other AIs and we can give out some old techs simultaneously to all AIs. I'm almost certain that we should self-tech Alphabet, soonish.
Another advantage of getting Alphabet sooner is that we get (some) visibility into what special techs the AIs were granted. Maybe you're right that we don't need it to declare peace yet though.
So, let's say I pause stop after Agri, BW, Pottery and continue the argument again then
I'm still firmly behind early exploration though. A workboat means we can travel by water quickly while the two Chariots explore the land, and we can access islands and coast-separated lands. Maybe we even get trade routes going with Gandhi, and resource trades for +diplo. We can send it exploring for 20, 50, 100 turns and if there's nothing left to explore, it comes back to feed a new city. This is a SGOTM - there are going to be weird map features and unusual tricks that will affect strategy, and the sooner the better.
P.S. HEpic will take some time to unlock, as there are no barbs to rack up XP on. If we want to attack De Gaulle, our initial force will probably be hand-built without HEpic acceleration. Elepults sound good, though note we will have to do a small detour to Horseback Riding.
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