SGOTM 12 - Ivan

[AutomatedTeller]

I don't know if we can get the 1st level MA techs or not, but if we do, there is a good chance we can get theology for free.

I took a look at the save - Japan, btw, is currently building wonders with both cities.

One thing to remember about this game is that there are 30 opponents. I'm perfectly content to have 8 of them be at a tech level with us - in fact, it might help us to have 1 or 2 of them very strong so they can research some techs for us (invention/gunpowder/etc)

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Attached is a screenie of our immediate area - I assume that these are our potential first targets. The Civs are:

Japan
Aztec

Rome (island to itself)

Portugal
India (assuming that this is the grey one to our NE)
Maya
Inca
Ottomans (who are a 1CC)


More information:

India: Has horses, is way behind in tech, is making 42 GPT, which sounds suspiciously like they have 2 size 12 cities, have spices, we are already at war.
Rome: Has iron and horses, 15 GPT, as you can see they have 2 small cities, are even further behind. No luxes We are at war.
Aztec: 23 GPT, has horses, no luxes, behind in tech, I think size 6 cities.
Japan: 27 gpt has horses, but they aren't hooked up. 1 size 12, 1 size 6. Currently building a wonder in both their cities.
Maya: 14 gpt, horses. They have many dyes, but we have 1 of those already.
Inca: 18 gpt, iron and horse
Portgual: 16 gpt, horses.

I am not sure why india is doing so crappy in the tech race - we are up by a lot on them.

the best targets, from a gpt point of view, seem to be India and aztec. Japan, as well, but aztecs cities can double in size pretty easily once they get construction.

a couple of things:

I want to give construction to most of these guys - I'd like the AI to build aqueducts for us.

Who to attack? It's japan, aztec or india. My preference is japan - I think it will be relatively easy, especially with pikes/MDI/WC. We are already at war with India, which is an advantage - every time we declare, it will upset others, but it's faster to get reinforcements to the near island - plus, that island has two very good targets, plus they are closer, which means less corruption.

Militarily, we are weak against everyone. japan started with 12 warriors. They will have 16 (deity) + 10 (variant) + 4 *2 (deity per city) + 5 (feud for zie 6)+ 3 (feud for size 12) = 42 free units. Am guessing they went for bronze working, so they would have built warriors until they got them, then spears. Assume that they have 15 warriors and are building spears/archers 50/50 after that - so they have 15 warriors, 18 archers and 18 spears. Yikes - that's a lot. We can assume that india has about the same. Aztecs have more archers, since they started with 4 of them instead of 4 of the warriors - or do they start with jags?

how to attack:

India: we can land on the mountains right near delhi and get a great defensive bonus.
Aztecs: we can land on the horses north of the cap, which is ok, but not great.
Japan: we can land on that jungle right north of osaka. Crappy defensive bonuses, but it will take a long time for the japanese to get us and the dromons can bombard osaka for us.

My thoughts are japan with aztecs helping out, or aztecs with japanese help - one or the other. India is just a long ways away right now, though is a fat target. Aztecs are prime - they have more ivory than we do!!

 

[I. Larkin]

We have Lit, I traded for it. The only AA tech we don't have is CoL. I was sure we could trade for the rest, and I was right. I was hoping CoL could be more useful then Lit in terms of trade. Looking back, the best thing once the free tech was in was turning off Science and banking the cash. The AI would have done the rest of the research for us. I was able to easily trade for all of the AA techs we didn't have. I got CoL about 3 turns after meeting Scandinavia.

Sorry, glenmetz for "questions", but was I very limited on time writing it. I did not see save at the moment. Looking at retrospect (and current situation) your play was "as optimal as possible". The risk was that we did not trade Literature and MMaking. (I'd research Lit after "free" Currency).
However, now we are "ready" for GA. I was incorrect about Market. Indeed, it helps with 3 Lux, + give extra cash at last turn of research.

 

[I. Larkin]

We agreed to currency, you say it yourselve too.

I thought some more about science, I think education asap, gift ai into MA to gain extra techs like AT suggested. I always have bit of difficulties in focussing getting 1 goal asap. If we want to win the SGOTM we need to take some risk. Usually I don't gift ai on high levels, to keep them as weak as possible.

2) Not that sure about scientific wonders. We need them but we need some extra cities before we start on those, then we can expand from those and keep our capitol for maximizing commerce.

3) The market will help with happines, will work even better when getting 1 or 2 extra luxes, don't sell it.

Yes, I also thought about Currency the best. But I thought Literature next. AI slow with Literature normaly, but not at this case. My research plan Theo, Edu, Astro. Then, let discuss: Printing Press, Banking, Democracy, Free Artisty. I mean Sheakspear. It let grow size 20+ well before Industrial.
I think we will be well ahead on research, but it may take 50-60 turns before Astronomy. I belive we will have 7-10 Cities at this time. Actually better to have GA a bit later.
2) When we mine all our land it will be 29 spt at "normal" and 41 spt at GA. I think we can spend 10-14 turns for Copernicus and Newton. It will work well at IA.
3) Sure, I was "wrong" about Market. Hope nobody mined.

 

[I. Larkin]

I don't know if we can get the 1st level MA techs or not, but if we do, there is a good chance we can get theology for free.

I took a look at the save - Japan, btw, is currently building wonders with both cities.

One thing to remember about this game is that there are 30 opponents. I'm perfectly content to have 8 of them be at a tech level with us - in fact, it might help us to have 1 or 2 of them very strong so they can research some techs for us (invention/gunpowder/etc)

Brilliant Idea to get Theo for free! Theoretically it is possible to go F4 IBT via “big picture”, Trade CoL to all Sci civs. We have 8 Sci opponents, so we “may” get Mono, for gpt and ask Theo for “free”. Then, probably get money back.
However, it is a risk that nobody will get Mono for free or our gpt will be not enough to take Mono. So much safer, hit enter go to big picture IBT, ask Mono, and research Theo. At “normal” it will take 30-35 turns, and 20 at GA regime. Then, looking at situation we may trade Feudalism and Engeneering for Mono.

 

[nerovats]

If Japan is building 2wonders now we should attack asap. Thedo not have 40 units. During my turns I took screenshot, and thy just had 3 units in their Capitol. It was building SoZ then so they won't be even near 40 units. If we land 2 tiles from their cities (with no road) we can use our attack beforre they can. As soon as we hit GA we wil get a sword per turn, during that period we should be able to take both Japan and Aztecs?, gain 4 productive cities and lots of commerce from the ivory of the Aztecs?. Again this will pay back every possible lost research turn due to unit support, several times.

 

[I. Larkin]

Attached is a screenie of our immediate area - I assume that these are our potential first targets. The Civs are:

Japan
Aztec

Rome (island to itself)

India: we can land on the mountains right near delhi and get a great defensive bonus.
Aztecs: we can land on the horses north of the cap, which is ok, but not great.
Japan: we can land on that jungle right north of osaka. Crappy defensive bonuses, but it will take a long time for the japanese to get us and the dromons can bombard osaka for us.

My thoughts are japan with aztecs helping out, or aztecs with japanese help - one or the other. India is just a long ways away right now, though is a fat target. Aztecs are prime - they have more ivory than we do!!

Grate analysis, A. Teller! But conclusion is unclear. You see, everything for India! 2 12 size Citees! 42 gpt! (BTW, how you get this figure?). In fact distance to unload is the same as to Japan. Dormon in 1 turn cross the sea from A to B and we may unload on Mountains. The same time to cross Japan channel. (1 turn load and 1 turn unload). But there is no good unload point (If any!) Obviously, we need MA, but Atztek- Japan configuration is not good. Front line is so narrow, that MA will help very little. But it is unthinkable to fight vs 42 units on our own. And declare war for that. Well at Feudalism with Pickmen and MI, I may consider, but now it is a good time to strike India. We may bring Portugal to war first, and when India pull over troops will strike from another side!
If not, bring Maya to help. All operation will take 10-12 turns; I mean to take Deli and Bombay. Next, “but not that good” as India option is to go after Aztecs. We have embassy with Japan, and may bring MA, and, when troops will at South strike Aztec’s Capital. Trouble is that they will come to GA, and probably kill Japan. AEAIK, it is the greatest sin to hurt reputation to let MA partner die.
If all team insist, we may go to Japan, but I am strongly against this idea. If AT will not finish them up I will have strong discomfort at this war.
BTW, can we swap turn-sets? I will finish India, and let AT and Nitfan to deal with Japan whatever they want.
To finish analysis, I must say that war with Rome is unthinkable. They have 20 or so Legioners (looking how much they want for peace: all our techs!). But I think we have to do it before they got Mmaking and ask more. No way to bring anybody to effective alliance.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I got the 42 GPT with the 999 trick...

I brought them to the table, click gpt per turn and typed 999

What you get back is their raw GPT. It seems that if you type in a number larger than they can possibly get, it will give the total amount their economy has.

The main advantage that Japan/aztec has is that reinforcements get there faster - for india, you have to bring the dromons back, load them, get them over, unload them. If we take Osaka, we can get forces into dromons 1 turn (overland), then into osaka the next with their movement left over.

Why don't I do this? I'll play a few turns (we only have 1 dromon now, anyway, so can't invade yet) and see what happens with MA techs.

If we get feudalism, we will have MDI/pikes/AC, which will kick spears/archers all to hell.

 

[nerovats]

India is OK too, as they are bit backward, and it would help to finish them before they get WE. But th Japan and Aztec island is closer so cities will be more productive. Could gift Aztec construction first so they can get ducts for us, but the will also give them defensive bonus. However landing on mountain will help and we don't have to start a wargoing after India first. Downside is we have to pull our army back to the Japan island. If we go Japan/Aztec first I'd take Japan now as thecan't build reinforcements, Aztecs can wait as they probably buld huge number of warriors, keeping them from building lot of MA units later, and they won't upgrade much. India has horses though.
Conclusion I'm ok with both wars, maybe India war better indeed if we can use other AI to bait majority of Indian forces like Ivan sugested. Eitherway we should not wait to long, take some AI out before they get pikes or worse.

 

[I. Larkin]

I got the 42 GPT with the 999 trick...

I brought them to the table, click gpt per turn and typed 999

What you get back is their raw GPT. It seems that if you type in a number larger than they can possibly get, it will give the total amount their economy has.

2) The main advantage that Japan/aztec has is that reinforcements get there faster - for india, you have to bring the dromons back, load them, get them over, unload them. If we take Osaka, we can get forces into dromons 1 turn (overland), then into osaka the next with their movement left over.

3) Why don't I do this? I'll play a few turns (we only have 1 dromon now, anyway, so can't invade yet) and see what happens with MA techs.

4) If we get feudalism, we will have MDI/pikes/AC, which will kick spears/archers all to hell.

Your knowalge fantasics, I read it but forget...
2) Actually NOT! All way around take more turns to Japan Wth 3 Dormons we make ship chain to India and troops ready in 1 turn.
3) If we take Osaka Atzteks will not help us. And it take a long time to go. As I told, I am strongly against Japanize war and it take long time to prepare. But we are at war with India NOW. If you agree to india, then transfer troops next turns. (Dormon at position A, next build after lib). MA with Portugal, Peace with Romans next turn...
Well, if all team vote against me I may reconsider...
As it most responsible step let everybody say.
4) Please, get MONOTHEISM via BIG PICTURE. We may research Theo next
We will trade Feo and Eng after. But if we get Feo or eng we have to research MONO ourself.
Have to go now. See you tomorrow.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I will try to get monotheism - but even selecting it in the big picture does not mean we will get it, unless you know a way to guarantee it.

 

[glenmetz]

I'm fine with us going after India as well as we are at war with them already. I just though Japan might be quite easy due to location and the fact they are building 2 wonders. Then again, maybe they'll get one of them and we can capture it from them later.

 

[Nitfan]

Isn't a ship chain considered an exploit? I've never used them since I consider them to be unrealistic. My vote is still for Japan just because I think we need more cities before we take on a civ with 2 size 12 cities.

Glenmetz - that is a sweet trick with the 999 I'll have to try that sometime soon.

If we take Japan first and get an army we can use it on Aztecs. If we get one on India maybe it would be more effective on that continent. I would still like to see us have the Aztec/Japan continent to ourselves first for corruption/productivity reasons.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I'm still thinking japan then aztec - those two are better than india and portugal.

However, india IS already at war, so we don't need to take the attitude hit of declaring.

If it's india, I'll bring portugal in a turn or two before moving forces over to india, just to give them a little more time for getting forces on the wrong side of their empire

 

[I. Larkin]

Glad to here that we "agreed" to go for India. In fact it is easer war because of fortunate MA configuration. I recomend to make MA with Portugal at AT turn 1 and MA with Maya at turn 3. At turn 1 better to make Peace with Rome not them to interfere. Siege of Delhi may be at turn 8 or 9. Do you want workout detailed plan or things are clear? Second Indian City may fall at turn 11-13, If Portugal will not take it first. I think the reason that India has huge gpt but low income because they overpay for unit support.
I think it have happend when their Cities grown up and they declare to us as weakest opponent.
About MONOTHEISM. If we research CoL ourself, we may get it for sure via BIG Picture. Just hit Theology and Monoteism 1 Theology 2 will appaer. At my experience it is always work.
Francly speaking, I only did it at Vanila. If we trade it at preturn we will get Feudalism (it have happend at all my C3C games before...)

 

[I. Larkin]

1) Isn't a ship chain considered an exploit? I've never used them since I consider them to be unrealistic.
2) My vote is still for Japan just because I think we need more cities before we take on a civ with 2 size 12 cities.

3) If we take Japan first and get an army we can use it on Aztecs. If we get one on India maybe it would be more effective on that continent.
4) I would still like to see us have the Aztec/Japan continent to ourselves first for corruption/productivity reasons.

1) In COTM it is not. But here Ship chain is not that good. Just fom A to B. But load turn before... Later, with 3 Dormons when we conqure all continent ferry Constantinople Delhi will be very effective.
2) Configuration of Japan/Aztek is such, that MA will help very little. But to kill 42 units ourself is long time and many loses. Note, that we have WW at Feudalism. With 2 MA to take 2 Cities is not a problem...
3) But after India we may take Maya, Inca, Portugal, Osmans. It is a lot more...
Aztecs/Japan have no Iron and it will be no problem even at Feudalism. I'd like to have 8 Cities ASAP for FP reason.
4) When we will have huge Army, it is OK. As to corruption reason Kyoto and Teno is not that good as India. But arguments 1,2,3 are more important then corruption. Well if anybody make detailed plan to conqure Japan/Aztecs I may review and comment.
Attached "official coordinate System)
I played with Theodora many times and Dormons Bombardment have huge effect. (But befor their MMaking)

 

[I. Larkin]

AT, I know you in. Are you writing smth? Minor thing (probably obvious) With Lib better to work on Sea tiles, it is more efficient the Scientiest. For Sword/Dormons we need 15 SPT, but better to mine all for GA and "just in case."
What you (and others) think about long term research plan?
When better to start GA? When to do gift to Sci civs?

 

[AutomatedTeller]

The capitols are all 10 away, but the 2nd cities for both aztec and japan are closer than that, while the other 2nd cities are further away.


My thoughts on a japan campaign would be to bring in teh aztecs and let them attack osaka. Then land on the hills north of Kyoto and take that with AC while most of the japanese attackers are up against aztecs, then move against osaka. The worry, of course, is that Aztecs take osaka.

I dunno - it seems to me that we have 1 who is very strong for india and a bunch of people who think japan but arent' so strong for it. Are we agreed on india? Overall, it probably doesn't matter all that much

unless I hear differently, I'll start in with india either tonight or tomorrow night - I'm up in Deity Warmongers, as well.

 

[I. Larkin]

Problem with India I see that it is more complicated because long transport, multi MAs, unclear land. But long term benefits much much better.
I think If you take Kyoto Aztecs for sure will take Osaka. And we will face 3 Aztecs City vs ours. With portugal and Maya it is not that painful as we have Inka and Spain to heat them after.
I know that do things that you do not like is very unpleasant. So, if you play this turns final decision yours.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

no, it's ok. the discussion has been very helpful - I hadn't really even considered india. There are real advantages... one of which is that Monty will probably demand gold from us sooner or later, so we can get him to to declare