SGOTM 12 - Ivan

[I. Larkin]

Shake's was mentioned by someone, but am glad to see you don't agree as well. We won't get wooden spoon that's for sure, but would like to aim for gold. Paris won't be a problem yet but it will be around 1400-1500AD?

It was me, mention Sh, but I did no finally gave up. After Astronomy it will be more clear, what research pass we have to take.
When we discuss "second level free tech" I understood, that for that some expensive optional tech is nessesary. Democracy is one of them. Whell, from democracy it is not far away from Shecspere. I think that 20K date is after resonable winning date.

 

[nerovats]

For FP Thebes looks perfect (6 tiles of 6 commerce), but no fresh water, could grow it faster by joining workers. We will need a leader for that though. Otherwise the Aztec Capitol, it should be productive enough to hand build it.

We should build fortresses in the choke with the mayan. Unfortunately we can't spare the workers for that.

In 4 turns our golden age will end and we'll drop to 28spt, there are 2 irrigated tiles so we can get to 30 again. Unfortunatly that is odd number. Probably better to get some citizens on coast and incraese commerce, maybe even get a worker to mine last 2 tiles before wonder build. Could also stay at 30 shields and build lot of horses to upgrade once we can trade for chivalry.

I would like to hear what rest of team thinks about Portugal we got 14 units and are strong, probably half of the Portugese army is inside our border. I'd say we we deamd and boot them, get some extra happiness for couple of turns and hopefully some more slaves.

 

[glenmetz]

I think we should continue to aggressive tactics. I noticed on the screenie that portugese troops were all around us. I like your plan Nero, boot them and go to war. Slaves would be good, but 2 more cities would be excellent. Then we can go after Japan. I don't think we need to island hop to get at Portugal. Aren't they on the same island as our new Indian holdings?

 

[I. Larkin]

0 1000*BC Things look OK, put Dormon on position, hit enter.
IBT Japans DoW to Aztecs. That has removed all hesitation...
1 975*BC Load the rest of the troops to Galley
IBT Aztecs attack Japans, Japans attack Aztecs.
2 950*BC Unload Pick and AC near Osaka. Capture worker.
IBT Aztecs attack Japans, Japans attack us, Kill Pick and readline AC.
3 925*BC Unloaded 4 IM near Osaka.
IBT Aztecs attack Japans, Japans attack us. All MI wounded, but alive.
4 900*BC The rest of the troops unloaded.
IBT Aztecs attack Japans. It is many redline spears and wounded warriors in Osaka. Japans attack us. MIs won without loses.
5 875*BC Capture Osaka, barracks, harbor. 1 MI in reserve kill warrior at hill (41,43). Pick moves here. Embassy in Paris (see pisture). Nothing special. France at peace with everybody and still has no contact with Persia. Trade Eng to Vikings for gold and gpt. Trade currency to Arabs. WW up.
IBT Japans move warriors to Osaka.
6 850*BC Kill some warriors, heal troops in Osaka, move Dormons in Osaka. Pick at (41,45)
IBT Japans move warrior. Japan Galley sail to Constantinople.
7 825*BC Unload 6 MI near Kyoto on Ivory, (43,46). Pick move to protect. 2AC back in reserve.
IBT Japans unload 2 warriors near Constantinople.
8 800*BC Bombard and capture Kyoto. It is size 11 and has Granary, barracks, Aqueduct and harbor. Disband MI and pop-rush Lib in Kyoto. Gift gold to Aztecs and sell Construction; they now polite.
IBT nothing
9 775*BC Embassy in Teno (See picture). It builds Aqueduct and have only 2 Spears in! At their GA Aq in 2 turns! Decided to make sneak attack of Teno Unload at point D and bombard point F to block reinforcements.
Our Army average to everybody and strong vs Vikings and Portugal. Unfortunately Rome has Mmking.
Move 3 Dormon with 6 units North.
IBT nothing
10 750*BC Move 5 Dormons with troops at poins (48,36) and (44, 32)
IBT Aztecs ask remove troops Automatically. 3 Dormons jump to (44,36). Aztecs move troops to Teno.
11 730*BC Declare war to Aztecs and unload 10 units to D. Bombardment fail.
IBT Aztecs attack our SoD. All alive, Pick redlined.
12 710*BC Bombard point (48, 30). Finally hit. Siege Teno, all won but few Aztecs units left. Fight at south. Got GL. Make Army. Load 2 MI, to make possible transportation after Astronomy. Advance with AC
IBT Aztecs move at (47, 29). Redlined 2 ACs.
13 690*BC Capture Teno. Granary, barracks, Aqueduct and harbor. Unload 2 Archers to support SoD. Move wounded units to Teno (4 altogether). Bombard (47, 29) stack. It did not help. Atack Tench on south, kill 3 spear. WW up.
IBT Aztecs capture Teno and got 59 gold from us, unload Archer and Horse near Osaka.
14 670*BC Recapture Teno. No harbor now. Bombard (47, 29) stack.
IBT Teno Survive. Osaka survive (e MI die). Rome unloads Spear and Archer near Bombey.
15 650*BC Kill romans SoD. WW very up. Army redlined.
Well, there is no recourses to continue war. We short of troops and Rome is a real danger. From another hand better to stay at war with Rome for WH reason.
Make a peace with Actecs for 10 Gold (all they have). Bring workers to improve Teno. We need Lib there ASAP.
IBT Persia Build S-Tzu.
16 630*BC Transfer troops to India. Shortest way goes near Rome.

IBT Trade Dice from Maya for CoL. It is safer, not to lose reputation if Inca declare.
17 610*BC Continue transfer troops. Any ideas what to do with money? My is to build many archers and upgrade for LBs. And then disband to help Universities. In Kyoto, Market is to University prebuild. We have 13 turns to Education. Build archers or MI, for your choice. To make my idea work we need 10-15 archers
Next player, please, 4 turns before Education come Micromanage Constantinople for 25 SPT and use, Coliseum, say, for university pre-build. Next, next player count how many we need for Copernicus and start pre-builds. It may be nice to take Portugal (FP in Lisbon? Or give it to Korea?), to have second Army (if GL). Based on my experience "average" does not mean easy win if we have to war overseas and can't use support from MA. Optimal time to go for Portugal is 5-6 turns from now and use 3-4 turns in advance MA with Korea.

 

[glenmetz]

Good work Captian. I guess the Aztecs forced our hands quite a bit. Thats OK, we've taken care of Japan, thats important. Who's up?

 

[AutomatedTeller]

your build archer and upgrade idea is a good one - we might be able to do the same with horsemen/knights.

But, also, we should start making embassies with those civs we aren't going to kill. Plus, we might need it to ensure alliances.

Nice turn set, btw!! you must have tripled our income!!

I would like to keep the war with rome going as long as it is safe, if we can - eventually, we will want to take them out and it would be nice to not take the hit for declaring.

So far, we have declared on two civs - we will do so again for the aztecs, of course, to finish them off at some point - and those are attitude hits - they can be overcome, of course, but hit's they are.

 

[I. Larkin]

1)For FP Thebes looks perfect (6 tiles of 6 commerce), but no fresh water, could grow it faster by joining workers. We will need a leader for that though. Otherwise the Aztec Capitol, it should be productive enough to hand build it.

2)We should build fortresses in the choke with the mayan. Unfortunately we can't spare the workers for that.

3)In 4 turns our golden age will end and we'll drop to 28spt, there are 2 irrigated tiles so we can get to 30 again. Unfortunatly that is odd number. Probably better to get some citizens on coast and incraese commerce, maybe even get a worker to mine last 2 tiles before wonder build. Could also stay at 30 shields and build lot of horses to upgrade once we can trade for chivalry.

4) I would like to hear what rest of team thinks about Portugal we got 14 units and are strong, probably half of the Portugese army is inside our border. I'd say we we deamd and boot them, get some extra happiness for couple of turns and hopefully some more slaves.

1) I think you are right. Thebs is the best for FP. I thoght about Lisbon, but "If" we get another GL soon better to have 1 more Army.
2) Disagree. If Maya declare we may make MA with Inca and survive. (We are short of Workers)
3) I "accidently" cut forest at GL. (and got nothing for that, my mistake).
If plant Back and mine last Ivory we will have 30spt. But I think better to have things as it is (We are short of Workers). For Uni it is good to have 25 spt (4 turns) and for Copernicus 27 spt make it in 15 turns.
4) I went to Japan. And did it in 8 turns. We could do Portugal, but bpt benefit woud not that big.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

we maybe should pop out a worker from constantinople - I think it's at max pop and let it grow again.

 

[I. Larkin]

1)your build archer and upgrade idea is a good one - we might be able to do the same with horsemen/knights.

2) But, also, we should start making embassies with those civs we aren't going to kill. Plus, we might need it to ensure alliances.

3) Nice turn set, btw!! you must have tripled our income!!

4) I would like to keep the war with rome going as long as it is safe, if we can - eventually, we will want to take them out and it would be nice to not take the hit for declaring.

5) So far, we have declared on two civs - we will do so again for the aztecs, of course, to finish them off at some point - and those are attitude hits - they can be overcome, of course, but hit's they are.

1) Archers are more effective because we may do it in 1 turn, Also we must have Invention soonner or later, but may skeep Knights.
2) Yes, we should. As I told, we have to make short-list of civs that will survive.
3) May be. But I forgot about flips. We have to put Archers at Theno and Osaka.
Also (Do as I say, not as I do), I have to stop at 730 BC, say, and discuss war with Aztecs. My arifitcial idea to rif-rack Teno was not good as I see at retrospect. Much safer was steady motion from south.
4) Sure. At any difficult moment we may make a Peace. However we have to patrol Sea. They already have Galleys, and better to patrol Delhi-Bombey area wit Dormons. Unfortunately we cant block them because staying in Rome's water will remove WH.
5) So do we wand Portugal? They broke afper India's war, may be will recover soon...
We *may* consider to declare to Aztec earlier then 20 turns. Or broken reputation is bad spot?

 

[I. Larkin]

we maybe should pop out a worker from constantinople - I think it's at max pop and let it grow again.

Yes, occasionaly. Also Kyoto has a good potential for worker Factory. But now better to Micromanage to hills to get second University ASAP.

 

[I. Larkin]

Good work Captian. I guess the Aztecs forced our hands quite a bit. Thats OK, we've taken care of Japan, thats important. Who's up?

Thanks. I underestimate Aztecs. Clear at their GA I have to be more carefull.
Nitfan up. Nerovats on deck.

 

[I. Larkin]

Notes to next player:
To suppress flips we need 3-8 units in Osaka, Teno and Bombay.
When Bombay build Lib situation will be better.
1) To bring Archers to Teno is main goal now. I do not want 730 BC again. Next turn 1 galley may sail straight from India (38,26) to (45, 29) and unload Archer to Forest with workers. It is sensible idea to via small ship chain to load on this galley second Archer. Galley with MI goes to Delhi and unload MI next turn.
2) Education will come soon.
Please, 4 turns before Education come Micromanage Constantinople for 25 SPT and use, Coliseum, say, for university pre-build. Please, stop when Education in 1 turn, to discuss what to do via Big Picture.
We will discuss how many we need for Copernicus and start pre-builds.
3) It may be nice to take Portugal to have second Army (if GL). Based on my experience "average" does not mean easy win if we have to war overseas and can't use support from MA. Optimal time to go for Portugal is 5-6 turns from now and use 3-4 turns in advance MA with Korea. Lib in Bombey will expand Border make slave and worker to build road at BG west of Bombey. After that we “ready” for Portugal war.
4) War with Rome.I would like to keep the war with Rome going as long as it is safe and give WH. We have to patrol Sea. Rome already unloaded 2 units 650 BC, and better to patrol Delhi-Bombey area with Dormons not let Legioners to unload. Unfortunately we can’t block them because staying in Rome's water will remove WH.

 

[nerovats]

To start, a leader is always a reason to consult team. This time army might have been most logic, but next one should be used for FP.

We don't need to keep units in Indian and Japanese cities for flip risk as they are gone they can't flip back unless they got a settler on a ship, but then we should still be able to contact them. Teno needs 8 units, but has tiny flip chanc without them.

We are still strong compared to Portugal so they still seem good target for now. We should be able to take them with the units we got now, but that will take lot of shipping. Still I think best idea, then come back to claim last Aztec city.

On science we should run straight for Theory of grafity, then see if we want some more, but we will most likely be able to trde for most other techs. Still don't want to go towards Shakes as it's 4 techs we don't need, the ai will research banking for us while we take magnetism. Do we want to give away uni's? It will speed up things. In IA we need Sanitation and Electricity asap.

After we take Portugal and last Aztec city we should take some time to improve our cities and land. Unless we get another leader then we should go after Egypt to build our FP. If we go there we should take both cities before building the FP, as otherwise we'll have a big flip risk and risk losing the FP for all times.

Did some quick counting on science if we get all cities we got now + Portugal and Teo, to max size with lib and uni and get the scientific wonders we should get some 600 science, not nearly enough to get 4 turn research. If we take Maya, Inca, Rome and Egypt with FP in Thebes we should be able to get 1000, but that's still a long way.

We now have 7 archer upgrading those will cost 420 gold, we could use the rest to get embassies. Make sure to get friends, we can sign lot of RoP's as the ai won't be able to take our cities by landings. That would include all scientific civs and civ we won't conquer (further away than Inca).

Before Niftan plays we should decide wether to war now or build empire, I would say take at least Portugal now they are weak they will grow stronger.

Niftan, Osaka needs some mm to grow in 4.

 

[glenmetz]

I wouldn't worry about keeping many MPs around once a Civ is wiped out. They only had 2 settlers to start and COULD NOT build more per the rules of the game.

I still think its warring time, but I tend to be a little aggressive (OK, maybe a lot aggressive).

 

[I. Larkin]

1) To start, a leader is always a reason to consult team. This time army might have been most logic, but next one should be used for FP.

2) We don't need to keep units in Indian and Japanese cities for flip risk as they are gone they can't flip back unless they got a settler on a ship, but then we should still be able to contact them. Teno needs 8 units, but has tiny flip chanc without them.

3) We are still strong compared to Portugal so they still seem good target for now. We should be able to take them with the units we got now, but that will take lot of shipping. Still I think best idea, then come back to claim last Aztec city.

4) On science we should run straight for Theory of grafity, then see if we want some more, but we will most likely be able to trde for most other techs. Still don't want to go towards Shakes as it's 4 techs we don't need, the ai will research banking for us while we take magnetism. Do we want to give away uni's? It will speed up things. In IA we need Sanitation and Electricity asap.

5) After we take Portugal and last Aztec city we should take some time to improve our cities and land. Unless we get another leader then we should go after Egypt to build our FP. If we go there we should take both cities before building the FP, as otherwise we'll have a big flip risk and risk losing the FP for all times.

6) Did some quick counting on science if we get all cities we got now + Portugal and Teo, to max size with lib and uni and get the scientific wonders we should get some 600 science, not nearly enough to get 4 turn research. If we take Maya, Inca, Rome and Egypt with FP in Thebes we should be able to get 1000, but that's still a long way.

7) We now have 7 archer upgrading those will cost 420 gold, we could use the rest to get embassies. Make sure to get friends, we can sign lot of RoP's as the ai won't be able to take our cities by landings. That would include all scientific civs and civ we won't conquer (further away than Inca).

8) Before Niftan plays we should decide wether to war now or build empire, I would say take at least Portugal now they are weak they will grow stronger.

9) Niftan, Osaka needs some mm to grow in 4.

1) It was no other use then Army. FP needs 8 (or 10?) Cities and no way to wait that long.
Next, agree, may be to build HE or university.
2) Bombay and Oska very close to enemy Capital. But OK, Teno is the main risk, where we need there 4-8 units.
3) We have ships for shipping. I transfer all army to Japan in 6 turns and almost all done now. Main problem with Azteks is WW. we need 10-20% lux to deal. I hate it...
4) I' d like to see proof with figures, that Astro-> ToE is the best path but most probably you are right.
5) I think after we Portugal and Aztec will go to Rome and after to Egypt. But I'd like Copernicus BTW.
6)Well, with 600 bpt it is 4 turn research fo Chemistry and almost the same for ToE. My hope that for IA we may some AI the same level of bpt.
7) We may "renew research deal" with France, when first gpt expire. we will have more and more gold. I did not understand an idea with RoP. In recent COTM I have had RoP and was badly sneak attacked.
8) I think we need both. War and build-up. May be it is too difficult.
9) OK, but it will be less bpt.

 

[nerovats]

2 On second thought Osaka is probably highest fliprisk as borders are crossed, Niftan should use civassist for chance

4 we need captiol to build science wonders not shakes, by the time they are complete we'll be close to hospital

5 war with rome will trigger their golden age,that wil be a though fight, better Egypt it will givemore commerce.

6 we won't be at 600 when researching cemistry yet, cities will need to grow lot more

7 this is archipello, ai terrible at landings so no threath, but RoP will make us look good for voting

8 in my experienceit works best to focus on 1 target otherwise I get confused and do both targets bit sloppy

9 it's just 1 commerce, growth more important

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I think ROP's will be something we sign later, when we are about to win. There is a nice attitude adjustment there. We don't need it now

Actually, I wouldn't mind setting traps... leave the capitol lightly defended and getting the AI to declare on us.

We need to take Rome at some point, but probably better when we have cav's/armies.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I am going to be out of town for the rest of the week - I should have connectivity in my hotel, but won't be on at all during the day.

War against portugal should be easy now.
War Inca will need help from Maya, but should be relatively easy.
Did we get anything for peace from Aztecs? If not, we can war again whenever, though weariness will still be an issue.
If we get another leader, I would recommend waiting on it for FP, not using on heroic epic. I just don't think we'll be doing so much war that it makes a lot of sense.

 

[I. Larkin]

2 On second thought Osaka is probably highest fliprisk as borders are crossed, Niftan should use civassist for chance

4 we need captiol to build science wonders not shakes, by the time they are complete we'll be close to hospital

5 war with rome will trigger their golden age,that wil be a though fight, better Egypt it will givemore commerce.

6 we won't be at 600 when researching cemistry yet, cities will need to grow lot more

7 this is archipello, ai terrible at landings so no threath, but RoP will make us look good for voting

8 in my experienceit works best to focus on 1 target otherwise I get confused and do both targets bit sloppy

9 it's just 1 commerce, growth more important

Continue discussion...

2 Re-take Osaka a lot easer then Teno. Civassist 3-8 troops to be protected. Teno have 1 and I'd like to have 2-3 at least next next turn in Teno. Osaka already have 3.

4 you force me to do calculation myself. The only thing I'd like to tel now that for second level tech at IA we need optinal MA tech to trade IBT.

5 We are at war with now and sonner or later we will trig their GA. Better to wait when it will expire. Agree, that Egypt is better target, (MA with Persia).

7 Later at the game. "Remove or declare" we have to use now.

8 We may make MA with Korea. And advance slow. It is OK to take just Lisbon. My feeling, that build up more important.

9 See 2. If Osaka will flip we lose population anyway. But all commerce we gain will be ours. But all unlikely and differense is small.

Let put 48 hours as a normal time for "got it". If Nitfan will not reply in 6 hours from now you may send your "got it".

 

[nerovats]

Will have time tomorrow so will wait till then.
So for sorth term we go after Portugal?