SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

I also think we should just push out Moscow next. Pigs will do an extra 200gpp in 3t under Pac or 4t under OR. I didn't initially think we'd be switching out of Pac, btw. The more I think about it, the less eager I am to switch out of Caste, either. WS is worth 4gpt per Sushi city - we can absorb that for a few turns if needed (probably won't even be needed). We'll need Slavery later (once there's some Sushi spread in newer cities), and the more Caste the better, I think.

Another note: do we wanna spam some more settlers ahead of Sushi, so they can insta-whip some infra after? Don't know how logistically possible that would even be...
 
State Property, Slavery, OR, Nationhood and either Representation (more synergistic with Castes and Pacifism) or Police State (fits well with our war plans to reduce WW).

I think it is too early to switch to Slavery. I think it is much better to switch to Slavery at the start of our next GA. Which we can time to still help with WS build and more importantly save to help spread our corporation by whipping executives. I think the unhappiness from slavery in the next 15 turns will bite us combined with the expected war weariness.

I understand its powerful but a dip into during the next GA would be timed better I think, and whipping corp executives is a very good use for it after we "slow" build buildings in prep for Free Market.

Representation is too powerful to dip into Police state.
 
Slavery comes between GAs unless we're running GAs non-stop, which I don't think is realistic. Otherwise our non-NE cities aren't taking advantage of the +100%:gp: from the GA. Futhermore, slavery comes best at the tail-end of our GAs, because we want to run our GAs at our population peaks, not population valleys.

And of course, we want to minimize our time in slavery. After Mining, inc., we shouldn't need slavery except maybe for factories/coal plants and the lead-up to our final space parts (when we're probalby not spamming GPs anymore anyway).

So slavery would be particularly useful for:
1. Banks+Wall Street pre-builds
2. The first Sushi+Mining execs out of Fish
3. granaries+lhs in brand-new cities, pre-MiningInc
4. Factories+coal plants
5. Final space parts pre-builds
6. ?

We don't necessarily need to run slavery for any of these. We should try to dovetail them as much as possible, if we're going to run 5t of slavery. For example, 5 turns of slavery to whip the first SUshi exec + a couple WS pre-builds all in Fish, whip some banks, and whip some granaries/lhs in outlying cities would be a good synergy. The question is when?
 
OK, so it looks like bbp and bcool are in favor running these civics after our golden age:

Representation - Nationhood - Caste System - State Property - Pacifism -> which means no change from what we are currently running.

Representation is too powerful to dip into Police state.

I agree that Rep has great synergy with CS and Pacifism. If we were considering Slavery and OR, then PS may have made more sense since we'd be running fewer specialists and doing a lot of warring (which we'll do anyway... ;)).

If we're in agreement to keep our current civics after this golden age, then I'll make my plans accordingly.

LC or mdy, any comments from you two on this?

Edit: x-post with LC.
 
We don't necessarily need to run slavery for any of these. We should try to dovetail them as much as possible, if we're going to run 5t of slavery. For example, 5 turns of slavery to whip the first SUshi exec + a couple WS pre-builds all in Fish, whip some banks, and whip some granaries/lhs in outlying cities would be a good synergy. The question is when?

We could build the Kremlin ASAP, switch to Slavery in one turn, and then back out at the end of the GA. The only problem is that we're then whipping during a GA, which is bad, and we can't run all of the specialists we want. But it is an option...
 
If we're not going to run Slavery or OR, then the cities where we build our 6 banks needs to change since I was planning to whip all of the banks so that they could be completed in 2 turns. We now have to consider the cities with the most hammers so that we can complete the banks and start WS in a decent time frame. :crazyeye:

EDIT: I'm going to stop my planning until we can reach a decision here because my PPP keeps changing...
 
We also haven't discussed how much longer we want to run Nationalism. BUt in general, Mitchum, I must say that I would prefer for you to pause your turnset on the last turn of the GA at the latest no matter what, so we can then make any final decisions on our civics. I understand you need to plan with something in mind, but planning always has to be flexible.

To me, the key focus of your planning (which none of us has seen yet of course) should be:

1. How to capture Tours-Hastings-York-London asap,
2. How to get Medicine asap,
3. How to mobilize for the Roosy Campaign asap.

Right now warring is costing us an arm and a leg and we need to wrap it up. Spamming execs will also cost a small fortune and the cost increases with inflation.

xpost
 
I'm still of the opinion that Slavery-OR is better than CS-Pacifism between our golden ages. The only city that "really" benefits from CS-Pacifism in the next 20ish turns is Pigs, right? Most other cities need infrastructure more than running specialists.

I guess the biggest concern of bbp and bcool is getting our next two great people so that we can trigger the next GA and have a GM for Sid's.

I think our cities have enough food without Sid's to benefit from enhanced Kremlin whips. We have a lot of basic infrastructure to build, including courthouses. I don't think we need to overwhip and rack up a ton of whip anger, but really really have a lot to build in a short amount of time.

Don't forget that gettings courthouses, banks and WS sooner will allow us to inch up our tech slider, getting techs that much faster.

I'll do a quick calculation to find out the odds of getting two GMs in Pigs if we go out of Castes and Pacifism. I'm not eager to push a great person from Moscow because he'll likely be a GS unless we start running priests and/or merchants there.

@bbp and bcool
What are your main concerns about going out of Pacifism and CS for 15ish turns? I think we'll be able to generate all of the great people we need during our late-game golden ages...
 
Addendum to my previous post:

THe reason I emphasize those three aspects is that having an understanding of those then facilitates decisions about when we need our banks, when we might want to run slavery, when we might want our next GA.
 
OK, I'll post my PPP as soon as I'm finished. I guess all of the builds and MM for each city (and where we even build the banks) will be off if I assume Slavery and we don't do it, for example, but those things can change as needed.
 
Addendum #2:

When we go down on Roosy also tells us about banks, because he has a couple and will keep building them, most likely. We'll keep 66% of them.

But even more important in all this is MOscow. Moscow's build queue is perhaps the most crucial timeline of all. It will look something like this, I assume:

T189-TXXX Cannons for Roosy
TXXX-TYYY INfrastructure (ch, grocer, bank, or whatever we decide...)
TYYY-TZZZ Sushi execs (1 per turn under BUreau)

This is perhaps our Critical Path, because we don't really need the first Sushi Exec before TYYY, which probably shouldn't come before our chosen infra is complete, which shoudn't begin until we have enough cannons for Roosy.
 
I was under the impression that our time btwn this GA and the next might stretch out to be 15 or more turns, so spending that much time in Slavery was not good.

I didn't realize we had a great scientist sitting somewhere. I must have missed this. But we definitely have a GE, GS, and hoping to get a GM next turn? So we only need 1 more GP to launch another GA? (in addition to founding Sushi and mining)

And the reason I was suggesting slavery during a GA was because I wanted to switch from state property to FM at the start, and found the corporation and whip out the first several executives. Which would mean 5 turns of slavery at the beginning the GA regardless of whether we have slavery btwn this GA and the next or not.
And whipping executives in Fish means we have less opportunity to whip the Market, Grocer, Bank like you guys were planning.

I think 5 turns of slavery at the beginning of the next GA is enough to serve our purposes, and the advantages of caste system could be kept until the next GA.

While not ideal to have slavery during a GA we have to do that switch if we want to keep State Property inbtwn GAs.
 
But even more important in all this is MOscow. Moscow's build queue is perhaps the most crucial timeline of all. It will look something like this, I assume:

T189-TXXX Cannons for Roosy
TXXX-TYYY INfrastructure (ch, grocer, bank, or whatever we decide...)
TYYY-TZZZ Sushi execs (1 per turn under BUreau)

One way of relieving Moscow to build other things is to upgrade existing Treb to cannons...
 
So slavery would be particularly useful for:
1. Banks+Wall Street pre-builds
2. The first Sushi+Mining execs out of Fish
3. granaries+lhs in brand-new cities, pre-MiningInc
4. Factories+coal plants
5. Final space parts pre-builds
6. ?
I would add courthouses in captured cities, Versailles pre-builds, FP pre-builds?

And I think the timing of a lot of these builds can be delayed or will fall much closer to the start of our next GA rather than the time coming between GAs.

I understand we don't want to whip a lot during or right before a GA.
I think you guys are suggesting slavery right before a GA, that is worse than at the beginning of one, no? Since in many cities we can accelerate our growth rate with extra population rather than not.
 
1. How to capture Tours-Hastings-York-London asap,
2. How to get Medicine asap,
3. How to mobilize for the Roosy Campaign asap.

Here is my current thinking. There are bound to be tons of xposts while I typed this, but I want to get this out there for comments.

Mao Campaign:
T0: Build settler in Siberia. Move musket out of Shanghai but still within our culture (trying to draw out LBs from Nanjing).
T+1: Move stack NE of Nanjing. Settler moves to end of road NE of Siberia. If Mao takes the bait, move musket and enough trebs back to Shanghai to make sure we don’t lose it.
T+2: Bombard city while injured units heal. Settler moves to ice ball # 6 location. If LBs left the city and there are no walls, we can consider taking Nanjing on this turn.
T+3: Capture Nanjing. Declare CF. Settle Glace de Mao. Gift Glace de Mao.
T+X: As soon as St Nick grows to 2 pops, redeclare on Mao. Capture St Nick. Sign CF as soon as possible.

Alternatively, we could redeclare on T+3, after gifting him Glace de Mao, and capture St. Nick, which may auto-raze if it is still size 1. The benefit of this would be to get a CF that much sooner so that we don’t have compounded WW for as long.

Do we know when St. Nick will grow to 2 pops?

We could also settle Glace de Mao somewhere else if we plan to let him hang on to St. Nick for a few turns. This gives the settler more time to get to another location.

Churchill Campaign:
I plan to use the Mao stack to take Tours while using our other stack to keep an eye on Marseilles. After taking Nanjing, the Mao stack should have 8 trebs (lose 3? attacking Nanjing but add three more that are 3W of Orleans), 1 cat, 7 maces (one will have to stay in Nanjing) and El Cid. If we take Nanjing on T+3, this stack won’t be in position and healed until T+6 at the soonest. We can add to this the units healing in Orleans: 4 trebs, 1 cannon, 2 muskets and 1 mace. These Orleans units will sit 2W of Marseilles until the turn before we plan to declare so that we can protect our cities if Churchill moves on us first. That would give us a total of 12 trebs, 1 cat, 1 cannon, 8 maces and 2 musket attacking Tours on T+6.

The stack watching Marseilles and protecting both Orleans and Rheims will consist of the current stack there: 8 muskets + 1 treb + reinforcements (1 cannon and 1 musket) coming every turn from Moscow and GP Farm. If he declares on us first, this stack and the one in Orleans should be able to pick off his attacking army in the open. If we declare first, with Orleans open, he should move his attacking army out or Marseilles and we can either take it out in the open or fortify our stack in Orleans, whichever makes the most sense at the time.

After Tours, our army will continue south taking Hastings, York and London. We can use galleys to move our army quicker along the coast with trireme protection. With the circumnavigation bonus, we can load our troops onto galleys inside the newly captured cities. On the next turn, the galleys can sail and unload right next to the next city, so our units will never be sitting on galleys in open water IBT.

Risk: Guangzhou, Beijing and Nanjing are all at risk from a naval assault by Churchill. The first two don’t currently have a garrison. When will be have 10% culture in these cities to be able to draft muskets there?

Roosevelt Campaign:
We need to be thinking about this now, but the actually planning is beyond the next six turns, which is all I plan to play in the first portion of my turnset. I plan to build non-stop cannons and muskets unless we decide to build a bank in Moscow. Depending upon how the war with Churchill goes, we can start diverting some of our units toward Roosevelt.

Espionage:
With some MM, building wealth and selling Paper to Churchill for 140 gold, we should be able to run the espionage slider at 100% this turn. That will give us approximately 1304 + 793= 2097 epp. We need 425 (Guilds from Troy) + 324 (Banking from Vlad) + 595 (Econ from Troy) + 850 (Constitution from Troy) + 680 (Corporations from Troy) = 2,874. Without Corporations, we’ll need 2,194; about 100 epp short. So, we have two options:
  1. Steal Guilds + Banking + Economics on T+1, Constitution on T+2 and Corporations on T+3. This puts our spies at risk of detection on T+2 and T+3.
  2. Wait until T+3 and steal all techs at the same time.
Regardless of which option we use, we have 6 spies and we want 5 techs. If more than 2 spies fail, it will likely by T+4 or T+5 before we can afford to steal Corporations. I will move two spies from Old China into Vlad and Troy as a safeguard.

Also note that if the epp differential changes from 1.08 to 1.03 or lower (which is possible if we run the slider at 100%), then we might just barely be able to steal Constitution as well on T+1. Attempting to steal Corporations will have to wait until T+3 no matter what we do unless we get a huge sum of gold and can run the slider at higher than 50%.

Medicine:
It’s hard to predict exactly how soon we can learn Medicine due to many factors: gold trades available, drop in commerce when not running a golden age, civics, how many scientists we run, if we build wealth or infrastructure, etc.

If learning Medicine is on our critical path, then all non-critical builds can be put on hold and we build wealth instead. If we do this and build wealth in every city but Moscow (cannons), we can run the slider at 100% right now at +87 gpt (this is during a golden age, of course). This could give us Medicine in 7 turns + 3 turns using espionage slider + 2 turns due to not being in Golden Age = 12 turns. Of course, this delays Wall Street, National Park, infrastructure, etc.

If we don’t prioritize Medicine and set the science slider as high as possible after we’re done with our tech stealing (T+3), I would guess that we could learn Medicine 10 turns (current estimate at 50% slider) + 3 turns using espionage slider + 4 turns due to not being in a GA = 17 turns.

If 17 turns is acceptable, then great. We can build infrastructure, gear up for our wars, and set ourselves up for the Sushi spam. If 17 turns is too long, we probably get it in 14ish turns by not going to the extreme of building wealth everywhere but delaying non-essential builds until after Medicine.
 
One way of relieving Moscow to build other things is to upgrade existing Treb to cannons...

This has been brought up before. Doing this potentially speeds up our war effort at the expense of our tech rate. If we decide to build wealth everywhere, we could keep research at 100% and still upgrade a treb to a cannon every turn (80 gold). This prioritizes our war effort and research at the expense of infrastructure. A valid option.
 
St Nick: no need for size 2. Once a city's grown to 2 once, it won't autoraze.

Edit: Sorry, guys. I'm trying to follow the discussion, but I'm way too busy 'till tmr to think through all this...
 
I understand we don't want to whip a lot during or right before a GA.
I think you guys are suggesting slavery right before a GA, that is worse than at the beginning of one, no? Since in many cities we can accelerate our growth rate with extra population rather than not.

I was actually thinking that we would revolt to Slavery at the end of this GA. We would whip required infrastructure now and use the whip a bit less as time goes on (possibly liberal use of the whip on GP Farm). That way, whip unhappiness would have worn off and populations would be back up at the start of the next GA.
 
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