I don't think we can see the costs on others. I guess we need to see a city first??@LC Great work on the sabotage production find!Does it appear that any other AI could be building a wonder right now?
SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw
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LowtherCastle
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Peace with the AIs before they collect common war plusmods is an important consideration, although they still haven't met each other.
It's also important to gain trade routes, but we appear to be far from that still, since we haven't even met anyone other than the doG. Another issue is the doG conceivably mounting an attack against us before we get BW, although I doubt he'll build two galleys for that purpose. I don't think the delay on Pottery and Agriculture is significant. Moscow won't grow much until we can spread irrigation to the rice (=CS) and Fish doesn't have time to build a granary. Galley City will be building galleys. Then any cities we have will build units to kick the doG. For example.
CS gives us not only much faster unit production and research but also irrigation for at least 5 unirrigated agri resources already in sight. How fast will that increase the growth of our empire?
Furthermore, I don't think going for CS really slows down our empire growth much at all. The Oracle costs the same whichever slingshot we do. Moscow will continue to crank out workers and a settler or two to handle the arduous job of roading and scrubbing this Day After. Then suddenly, around 900BC or whatever we would get this outrageous kick in the rear.
Anyone's welcome to test it out. I personally think it's a no brainer if possible.
Simultaneously, we do continue the GLH path in Fish, imo. With four AIs knowing sailing and I think both Churchill and Mao knowing also masonry, I think we'll be extremely lucky to get it, no matter what we do. GLH is great even without AI trade routes, imo, because we can settle our own cities on islands, which Erkon promised. We just need four such cities to get 4 TRs @2gpt. That makes every coastal city pay for itself, excluding distance costs.
I'd definitely like to know if this is the case. I've just been assuming it's the same discount on all builds.
Not my find--klarius told me how to do it. bbp is right that we can only use this for cities whose espionage screens we can see, which only happens after we've seen the city center for that city. One reason I wanted our warrior to get that close to Paris.@LC Great work on the sabotage production find!
bcool
Deity
I'd like to know what are the risks and how likely are we able to avoid getting beaten to the oracle...
Ok so if the CS-sling is so good, do we even want to delay the CS-sling for a very small chance at the GLH?
Roosevelt gets double production for lighthouses and is industrious. He already knows sailing, do we have any chance at all for the GLH? Is it worth delaying the chance at a CS-sling 6 or 7 turns?
Worst case scenarios...Once De Gaulle finishes Moai (assuming that is what he is building), how long will it take him to research priesthood and finish the oracle?
Or...someone else was already researching priesthood when we started the oracle (before we put hammers into the oracle), That other AI could be building the Oracle in a few turns and we won't know it.
and we don't know how long putting hammers into the Oracle delays the AI.
Once Gandhi meets anyone he will likely trade for meditation/polytheism...
Just trying to make sure we are not risking too much
Edit attached a test game that we can use to try different scenarios (I'm not sure if it exactly matches the real game.)
Ok so if the CS-sling is so good, do we even want to delay the CS-sling for a very small chance at the GLH?
Roosevelt gets double production for lighthouses and is industrious. He already knows sailing, do we have any chance at all for the GLH? Is it worth delaying the chance at a CS-sling 6 or 7 turns?
Worst case scenarios...Once De Gaulle finishes Moai (assuming that is what he is building), how long will it take him to research priesthood and finish the oracle?
Or...someone else was already researching priesthood when we started the oracle (before we put hammers into the oracle), That other AI could be building the Oracle in a few turns and we won't know it.
and we don't know how long putting hammers into the Oracle delays the AI.
Once Gandhi meets anyone he will likely trade for meditation/polytheism...
Just trying to make sure we are not risking too much
Edit attached a test game that we can use to try different scenarios (I'm not sure if it exactly matches the real game.)
bcool
Deity
Here is a test game going for both the oracle and the GLH.
I managed the CS-sling by 800 BC with sailing and masonry teched (probably can do a turn or 2 better with optimization)
The GLH was built in 800 BC. But the oracle wasn't built (perhaps because we started the oracle when no one had Phood researched)
I was still 10 turns away from the GLH (maybe by delaying agriculture and teching BW we can shave off a turn or 2)
I managed the CS-sling by 800 BC with sailing and masonry teched (probably can do a turn or 2 better with optimization)
The GLH was built in 800 BC. But the oracle wasn't built (perhaps because we started the oracle when no one had Phood researched)
I was still 10 turns away from the GLH (maybe by delaying agriculture and teching BW we can shave off a turn or 2)
Mitchum
Deity
I ran a quick test to see how many hammers the AI needs to complete various builds and the truth is somewhere in the middle. My results were:
Basic units/buildings = 70% (as expected)
World Wonders = 85%
Settlers = 95% (interesting)
Basic units/buildings = 70% (as expected)
World Wonders = 85%
Settlers = 95% (interesting)
Code:
Archer: 17/25 = 0.68
Axe/Spear: 24/35 = 0.686
WB: 21/30 = 0.7
Galley: 35/50 = 0.7
Sword: 28/40 = 0.7
Monument: 21/30 = 0.7
Barracks: 35/50 = 0.7
Worker: 43/60 = 0.71667
LH, Granary: 43/60 = 0.71667
GW: 127/150 = 0.8466
GLH: 170/200 = 0.85
Settler: 95/100 = 0.95I can get the Oracle, as well as an academy in St Pertersburg by 850B.C.
I don't think delaying peace with the AI will be an issue given that we are in no danger of being attacked immediately. As the AI haven't met yet they are unlikely to do so in the near future, so + war modifiers shouldn't be a problem. As Gandhi doesn't even have writing yet it may not delay peace too long anyway
As we seem to be able to figure out when the AI is building the Oracle, the only real risk is that we would get currency a few turns later than we otherwise would which doesn't seem to be much of a risk.
I don't think delaying peace with the AI will be an issue given that we are in no danger of being attacked immediately. As the AI haven't met yet they are unlikely to do so in the near future, so + war modifiers shouldn't be a problem. As Gandhi doesn't even have writing yet it may not delay peace too long anyway
As we seem to be able to figure out when the AI is building the Oracle, the only real risk is that we would get currency a few turns later than we otherwise would which doesn't seem to be much of a risk.
LowtherCastle
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mdy: Your doG is dead... 
We might want to consider including a silver city in our plans. I didn't even notice the silver and extra deer until this morning.
We might want to consider including a silver city in our plans. I didn't even notice the silver and extra deer until this morning.
LowtherCastle
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ZPV, Silu, bestsss, anyone:
Questions on trading for techs under DoP.
I've searched high and low but can't find the mechanics of this.
Is there any conceivable way for us to plan to acquire the advanced techs the AIs have in a DoP? There's the added problem that the AIs already have 42 war success against us. Is the war success cumulative for the entire game is it reset from one DoP to the next?
Questions on trading for techs under DoP.
I've searched high and low but can't find the mechanics of this.
Is there any conceivable way for us to plan to acquire the advanced techs the AIs have in a DoP? There's the added problem that the AIs already have 42 war success against us. Is the war success cumulative for the entire game is it reset from one DoP to the next?
LowtherCastle
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The idea is that we can monitor whether they research a really cheap tech, as in PH.
Ok. Do you have your best guestimate on what they currently have for tech?
Mitchum
Deity
I don't think we can even "see" the advanced techs in the trading screen unless we have the pre-requisite tech(s), can we?
LowtherCastle
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Here's what I have:
EDIT1: Switched CHurchill's Sailing and AH dates
EDIT2: Switched CHurchill's AH to TW
Spoiler :
Not that I know of. A matter of timing and planning ahead. For example, how many war successes would we need? Maybe we could gift them an idiotic city, such as Moscow-S, and capture and re-capture, ad infinitum, to collect the necessary war successes. I don't know, but if we knew the mechanics we might find an inventive solution.
bcool
Deity
Based on LC's spreadsheet it looks like no one was researching priesthood when we started the oracle, so we probably have quite a bit of time for the oracle (based on the bbp's tested idea that the AI delay researching priesthood if we started the oracle).
So the odds are very good that we can get the CS-slingshot. My question sill is, is it worth trying for the GLH?
Costs
1) delays CS-slingshot ~6 turns
2) delays exploratory workboat or 2
3) delays a chariot for exploration/cheaper peace with De Gaulle?
4) edit: delays academy if we try for GS in fish city??
Benefits
1) very small chance at building GLH --what is the earliest we can built it by? --600 BC? Turn 91?
Mao
Has both sailing and masonry
Mao could have already started the GLH in his 2nd city on turn 51 (only needs to average (60*.7 + 200*.85) / 40 = 5.3 hammers to build a lighthouse and the GLH)
Churchill
Has both sailing and masonry
Churchill in his capital needs to average (60*.7 + 200*.85) / 36 = 5.9 hammers
Or does he already have a 2nd city?
Roosey
Roosey only has sailing
But probably has built a lighthouse by now
And could have put 6 turns into masonry
Once Roosey has Masonry he only needs (200*0.85 / 1.5 = 113 hammers) to build the GLH
I agree the GLH would be amazing but there seems to be so little chance of getting it that we would be better off focusing on exploration (and capturing it ? ) rather than building it ourselves.
So the odds are very good that we can get the CS-slingshot. My question sill is, is it worth trying for the GLH?
Costs
1) delays CS-slingshot ~6 turns
2) delays exploratory workboat or 2
3) delays a chariot for exploration/cheaper peace with De Gaulle?
4) edit: delays academy if we try for GS in fish city??
Benefits
1) very small chance at building GLH --what is the earliest we can built it by? --600 BC? Turn 91?
Mao
Has both sailing and masonry
Mao could have already started the GLH in his 2nd city on turn 51 (only needs to average (60*.7 + 200*.85) / 40 = 5.3 hammers to build a lighthouse and the GLH)
Churchill
Has both sailing and masonry
Churchill in his capital needs to average (60*.7 + 200*.85) / 36 = 5.9 hammers
Or does he already have a 2nd city?
Roosey
Roosey only has sailing
But probably has built a lighthouse by now
And could have put 6 turns into masonry
Once Roosey has Masonry he only needs (200*0.85 / 1.5 = 113 hammers) to build the GLH
I agree the GLH would be amazing but there seems to be so little chance of getting it that we would be better off focusing on exploration (and capturing it ? ) rather than building it ourselves.
Mitchum
Deity
It's true that the GLH is risky. However, based on the fact that no wonders have been built yet, I don't think any AI will start building the GLH before at least the GW or SH are built. Also, if getting the GLH is possible and we don't try for it, it will be very hard for us to catch those teams that do go for it and succeed.
I'm not convinced that an exploring WB is mandatory right away. Our warriors seem to be doing a good job at the moment. The worst that can happen is that we try and fail such that we end up with failure gold. There are worse things that can happen...
I think it's worth the risk. Although if we miss the CS sling by 6 turns or less, I'll be eating these words!
LowtherCastle
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IF we focus on solid empire growth, we might easily capture GLH before it's particularly significant anyway.
xpost
xpost
Mitchum
Deity
This is true. I guess it depends on who builds it, how far away they are, and whether or not they can be reached pre-Astronomy...
LowtherCastle
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Okay. I made an error in Churchill's techs and it's bad news for GLH. Three AIs had Sailing before T40 and my chart only had two. Furthermore, I miscalculated, thinking that a 5th AI learned Sailing on T55. Not true. Only four know it, meaning that probably Churchill learned Sailing as his first tech. We can assume he long since built a lh in his capital. So he could be building or even almost done with GLH. Or he might build it in a podunk second city, but first he'd have to build a lh there and NOT roll the dice to build it in his capital before then. EDIT: And of course, he'd have to build that second city first...
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Currently the top 4 hammer producers are Church(pop5) + Roosy(pop8) + dG(pop7) + Mao (pop4+pop2). We know dG is producing 10hpt because his wonder is getting 15hpt. That leaves 10hpt, 12hpt, and 15hpt according to the demo screen for T55. Let's assume Roosy is 15hpt at pop8. Churchill 10 or 12hpt. Maximum 17 turns to build GLH from T50 or later.
I don't think Stonehenge has any bearing on when these AIs build the GLH, because only Gandhi knows Mysticism. As for the Great Wall, I have no idea how the code prioritizes the two, especially if the AI already has a lh in that city. But it seems like any of these AIs could easily build both before we come close to finishing.
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Yeah, I'm with mdy on the CS-slingshot and bcool on skipping the GLH. That's my vote. Without Sailing, we should be able to get Math+CoL ~1000BC. I ran a tested in which we settle the silver mine city and get that running. That would give us three cities at 1000BC, then we could REX to the south.
In such a scenario, assuming we got CS, then I envision us really focusing on REX and not worrying about tech (Educ+etc.) for quite a while. If we beelined Currency+Calendar+MC (not sure what order), we could lift our happiness cap up to 15, including a religion, market, and forge, but not wine and whales. That's actually outrageous for the BC years. In case you hadn't noticed, we have all four Market happies!!! 
Erkon must have doctored that, because I've never seen that on one landmass. That's what the Ducks did that we didn't last time. We were ahead, but rushed our research too much, while they developed their infrastructure more.
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Currently the top 4 hammer producers are Church(pop5) + Roosy(pop8) + dG(pop7) + Mao (pop4+pop2). We know dG is producing 10hpt because his wonder is getting 15hpt. That leaves 10hpt, 12hpt, and 15hpt according to the demo screen for T55. Let's assume Roosy is 15hpt at pop8. Churchill 10 or 12hpt. Maximum 17 turns to build GLH from T50 or later.
I don't think Stonehenge has any bearing on when these AIs build the GLH, because only Gandhi knows Mysticism. As for the Great Wall, I have no idea how the code prioritizes the two, especially if the AI already has a lh in that city. But it seems like any of these AIs could easily build both before we come close to finishing.
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Yeah, I'm with mdy on the CS-slingshot and bcool on skipping the GLH. That's my vote. Without Sailing, we should be able to get Math+CoL ~1000BC. I ran a tested in which we settle the silver mine city and get that running. That would give us three cities at 1000BC, then we could REX to the south.
In such a scenario, assuming we got CS, then I envision us really focusing on REX and not worrying about tech (Educ+etc.) for quite a while. If we beelined Currency+Calendar+MC (not sure what order), we could lift our happiness cap up to 15
, including a religion, market, and forge, but not wine and whales. That's actually outrageous for the BC years. In case you hadn't noticed, we have all four Market happies!!! Erkon must have doctored that, because I've never seen that on one landmass. That's what the Ducks did that we didn't last time. We were ahead, but rushed our research too much, while they developed their infrastructure more.Mitchum
Deity
Completely skipping the GLH and focusing on REX and a CS-sling does sound appealing. We should be able to pick up Sailing and Masonry (two non-vital techs if not going for the GLH) in tech trades once we get Alphabet (and Currency for DoP?), eliminating the need to self-research them.
I'm on the fence and can go either way. It would be good to get other opinions/votes on this so that we can move forward.
BTW, are there any other early wonders we should start thinking about? GLib? MoM? Others?
I'm on the fence and can go either way. It would be good to get other opinions/votes on this so that we can move forward.
BTW, are there any other early wonders we should start thinking about? GLib? MoM? Others?
LowtherCastle
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I could even go for our original plan, but I kind of doubt any other teams went for CS and if we can get it, look out.
We don't need to think about them now, but this is a hammer-rich map, so we definitely want to grab all the decent marble wonders. Especially MoM. We should run GAs after our empire is huge to the end of the game.
We don't need to think about them now, but this is a hammer-rich map, so we definitely want to grab all the decent marble wonders. Especially MoM. We should run GAs after our empire is huge to the end of the game.
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