SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

@bbp: Okay.

I think it's more important to have the pigs scrubbed in advance, than any scrubbing of the unirrigated rice, but I can't remember if we also have time to road the rice or not. Do whatever seems best to you.

The thing with Gandi is that we don't have to be Cautious with him, we just need for dG to be his WE and he will continue to be. Listen, right now Gandhi is a hidden -3 or -4 with dG. We're at hidden 0. Gandhi can't get any better with dG without OBs or a common religion, because he doesn't have any visible negmods to get rid of. So we'd have to lose 3 plusmods to become G's WE. Meanwhile, Gandhi will get an additional -1 on dG for heathens and we're going to get +1 from OBs eventually. I think dG will be Gandhi's WE till the end of the game or at least for a very long time. Finally, any negmods we get with Gandhi will wear off quickly. Here's what Silu said about it:
Silu said:
Disregard my last post, I forgot (doh) we want +4, not +1 :D

Okay, the value of techs for an AI in a trade:

((COST - RESEARCH_DONE) * 1.5) + ( COST/2 * ((CIVS_KNOWN - CIVS_WHO_KNOW_IT) / CIVS_KNOWN)) * AI_TRADE_MODIFIER

Sooo.... PH and Medi cost 210*1.3 = 273 beakers to him. No extra AI trade modifiers, very few techs have those - so assuming he doesn't have any beakers in PH/Medi everyone else knows them, fair trade value is 273 * 1.5 ~~ 409. So in order for us to get +4 from the formula with this, we'd get it if we have known him for 10 turns or less (so 409 / (TURNS*10) is over 4). If the other Civs he knows don't have it that might buy us a turn or two more.

EDIT: Humm... I now double-checked the fair trade diplo code (functionality of previously given to me/us by bestsss) and actually the turns are only multiplied by five for fair trade and ten for WE hate. So that doubles the turn limit above, giving us +4 diplo if we've known him for 20 turns or less.

CONCLUSION AND TL;DR: We should get guaranteed +4 with Toku with PH+Medi if we've known him for 20 or fewer turns, 20-25 might be possible if Justy/Bella/ZY do not know PH/Medi.
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Silu said:
Well, there's a penalty for the "default lopsidedness" of tech etc. trades so I have no reason to believe this isn't the case with peace trades as well. But I think it should at most be something like 10% of the total value you give. So for example if it'd cost exactly 1000g (from a "what do you think" proposal), that'd be about equal to 20 turns (Math: 1000g * 2(value/g) / (10 WE value decay per turn)) of WE hate (so in 20 turns the WE hate situation would be the same as it is now). Not a great hit either way.
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Anyway, even if there were some small risk, it's far outweighed by the chance of dG building GLH for us, imo. Or if dG fails and gets failed gold, we can probably grab that from him...

Good luck, bbp!

xpost with bccol
 
bcool said:
What about another workboat in Fish to either explore or net the clams?
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I also thought about that. I just think it's time to build for the future. We'll soon have plenty of :health: for growing Fish and working those hammer tiles. We're going to need a galley somewhat soon, and so forth.
bcool said:
And the Marble site is more important if we go for the GL and NE first. I don't think the silver site needs to be settled any time soon.
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I tested settling Marble instead of Silver too. It works pretty well and pays for itself sooner because the best solution, I think, is to scrub the city site, then improve the furs, then finally the rice. So it's almost immediately paying for itself. It's also a better site long-term so it makes sense we'd develop it first.

Settling it now involves some wasted worker-turns roading there, but we can live with that if you guys decide that's the way to go. I good with whatever you guys decide as I'll be signing off for the night soon... ;)

Edit: One advantage of Silver is that we could immediately start building a galley there, which would hopefully be ready in time for settling our overseas cities. That will give each city +1g for both trade routes, which is like a gold mine or two. But that could also come out of Fish, I suppose.
 
Silver first is purely a move to make worker actions more efficient. The assumption is that we'll be settling both it and marble very soon anyway. Settlers are dirt cheap here. I think it's worker efficiency that's a real limiting factor on REX.

I won't play today if we're not agreed on this...
 
It's true that settlers are cheap, but we still need to be wise. The other thing is that if we build the Pigs settler, then chariot and find out the gems are still available, I'd prioritize them, so then Marble is delayed quite a bit. Silver, in the final analysis just is what it is, a silver mine, no more really. Marble is the best long-term production city we have so far. Edit: It also develops the furs faster because they don't have fallout. LIke I said, though, you guys feel free to decide. Not sure I have anything else to contribute on that.

When I tested Marble, i sent the first worker to the deer, then it moved W when the second came to the deer, Both roaded then scrubbed the marble tile for settling. By the way, I DO feel strongly about where we settle marble--on the marble tile. If you guys feel differently then I would like to discuss that more. The marble tile has no mountains, all river tiles, all four food resources, and is simply a powerhouse city for building some space parts.
 
You don't have to work very hard convincing me to skip Silver. ;) I generally hate settling weak cities with my first 4-5, unless it's getting a necessary strat reso... I'll play around with it tonight, and look to play the set tmr then.

Can we have a vote?

Options:
Silver>Pigs>Marble OR Marble>Pigs>Situational OR something else?

I'm assuming that we're building 2-3 workers, 2-3 settlers and a granary before growing to at least size 7. Is that the rough consensus?
 
Did a run to 200's AD... Marble>Pigs>Gems seems really good.
 

Attachments

:wavey:

I really would like to play with you but I just can't keep up with that extreme pace of posts. I do have some more time right now as things are starting to settle in but not THAT kind of time, unfortounately. So I'm officially dropping out now :p (as if I ever was really in...). I'd like to play something like an SG soon as it's way less time-consuming and more relaxed. I really enjoyed playing with you guys :goodjob:

Keep up the great play! Impressive to see how you're doing :thumbsup:
 
@Mysty
I hope you'll still lurk in our thread, not in others, and maybe help out with a turnset if we need you.

So far we've had lots of posts about 1) where to settle, 2) how to get the CS/slingshot, and now 3) what our basic strategy will be. Once we get Paper and see most of the world, I think things will get easier, because we'll know what we're up against.
 
I agree with settling the marble site next.

I would rather build a galley for exploration/settling purposes than another workboat.
 
I was assuming that we would whip the granary after we got our GS, so we would go:

workboat-galley(partial)-whip granary-finish galley.
 
@LC: Of course I'll stil lurk here and I might take a set if needed. I just usually don't read all posts thoroughly as lots of it is MM discussion which is not really interesting to just read (unless when participating in it yourself). If you need me I am available, just say so soon enough so I don't have to read everything up at once.
 
bcool said:
skip silver, settling on the marble is fine with me.

edit: this is good for me : Marble>Pigs>Situational OR something else
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I agree with Marble then Pigs. This seems to be the strongest option. We can settle Silver at our leisure later.

Regarding SP vs. corporations, I don't have much experience with corporations, but it sounds like a very strong option if we have a lot of the required resources. I'll try to play a few corp test games in the coming weeks.
 
LowtherCastle said:
I downloaded your save twice and both times it crashes and burns when loading. Can you link a recent autosave to see if it works better?
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:confused: Anyone else? I attached a conventional save and an equivalent autosave. Try that.

Summary:
I settled Marble>Pigs>Gems>Silver>GP>CornFish>Island, and built TGL+Parth+NE in Moscow, with a late Pyramids build underway. Teched Currency/Calendar/Aesthetics/Literature/Music/Paper/Education(part), I think. Fish GS founded an academy, Music GA started a golden age, next GS settled in Moscow. DOW'd DG twice, stealing two workers, razing a secondary city and netting 50g, but losing my chariot, one of the stolen workers and Aesthetics. Wasn't trying very hard on that front, though.

One note: we should just save cash between Currency and academy.

mystyfly said:
@LC: Of course I'll stil lurk here and I might take a set if needed. I just usually don't read all posts thoroughly as lots of it is MM discussion which is not really interesting to just read (unless when participating in it yourself). If you need me I am available, just say so soon enough so I don't have to read everything up at once.
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Hey buuuddy :)
Missed ya. Yeah, we're going a bit crazy with this game. I think it was necessary, since it's such a strange setup. And, it worked - looks like we're in a strong position. I think it's gonna get more and more chill once we're past this opening stage, and start to be like a regular SG. Stick around, for sure. :cool:
 

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Looks like we're decided on Marble first. :) Basically, the two northern workers will road and scrub the marble, then work towards the deer (no fallout) and rice. Southern workers will scrub the city site and pig in time to pasture the turn of settling, having pre-roaded rice (no scrubbing), so we can continue roading towards gems right after. I feel I'm getting the hang of the worker micro, so it should be ok.

Unfortunately, I won't have time to play now, as I have a full day of work and have to run soon. Tonight might also be busy. 24 hrs at the latest.
 
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