SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[bcool]

When are expecting to get Theo?

That's the other reason to research Poly & Masonry ourselves. It allows us to trade for Mono (without grossly overpaying for it with Calendar or something like that), so that we can steal Theology (earliest would be 4? turns from now for max discount on the spy if we don't move it)

 

[babybluepants]

Max discount is 5t stationary, right? If we build forge-spy-set-set, that will take 8t, with the spy ready after 4. It should be in place by T+7, for a steal on T+12? I'm perfectly happy building another worker after that for 2t, or even two, or a barracks.

 

[LowtherCastle]

That's the other reason to research Poly & Masonry ourselves. It allows us to trade for Mono (without grossly overpaying for it with Calendar or something like that), so that we can steal Theology (earliest would be 4? turns from now for max discount on the spy if we don't move it)

Poly(@5AIs+20%bonus)+Masonry(@6AIs+40%bonus) costs 185 base beakers.
Mono(@3AIs+20%bonus) costs 141 base beakers.

So we set research on Aesthetics for now, trade with Gandhi next turn for Poly+Msnry+IW. Then we'll see what happens.

 

[LowtherCastle]

DG: I'm ok with DOW. The purpose is just to pass through with the chariots for further steal opportunities?
There's a really good chance that wandering archer will fortify on the hill, which would suck.
Are we still sending the spy down?

Good point about sending the chraiots through. That was my original thinking, but then I forgot. We want the axe escort for when we do that. Hmmm...We need to figure out the timing/teleporting on all this to maximize it for our needs.

bcool, this turnset is a lot more complicated that initial appearances...

 

[Mitchum]

It seems that good ideas are flowing and we're zeroing in on our short-term goals. Excellent. I have a few comments to make:

• As has been said, the Hagia Sophia is like building 3 workers (3*60 = 180) for 250 base hammers. At first glance, it doesn't appear like such a good deal. However, every 3 workers we build after that is like actually building 4 workers, so the bonus of the HS keeps getting better and better. Plus, we can grow while building the HS. But, the worker efficiency is just one benefit. Another major benefit is the GE points, which we really need to start accumulating if we plan on founding Mining Inc.
  
• I think we should start considering putting the Hanging Gardens in Moscow as well. Not only is this another source of much needed GE points, but it gives us 30 free base hammers in every city (assumes we whip the free pop). With 8 cities (should be more by then), thats 240 hammers, which almost equals the 300 hammers we have to invest (unless we can secure stone in the short term for the 100% bonus). We also get the +1 in every city, which allows every city to grow +1 pop without losing food due to unhealthiness. The question I have is will the AI build an aquaduct due to health issues and the HG sooner than we can build it?
  
• Banana city "steals" a banana resource from GP Farm. In addition, it will take quite a few worker turns to improve. I think it's better to settle the two off continent cities first. Doing so gives us the improved trade route income. They can both be set up with a single worker. On top of that, clam/copper/corn gives us +2 in every city once we've farmed the corn! Have we agreed on exactly where to settle these two cities? Clam/fish could go on the grassland tile, leaving the plains tile for a work shop and an extra much needed hammer there at the expense of 1F. Clam/copper/corn goes on the desert west of the copper, right?
  
• As bbp said, Pigs needs some hammer tiles. The plains hill mine and the camped ivory would be nice to have completed there, maybe even before the rice farm which only adds +1F...

 

[LowtherCastle]

Siberia whips Granary/ builds library mostly with hammer overflow/forge

We put the Siberia whip OF into a settler, grow to 4, complete the settler. After that most likely a worker or two, completing the library when convenient.

Okay, I tested this pretty carefully and what appears to be by far the best is:

T107 switch build back to granary!!!
T108 1pop granary
T109 build library while growing
T111 build settler (we're now at pop4 24/28f)
T112 2pop settler (with 24/24f, we grow back to pop3 even while building a settler!)
T113 settler done, pop3 12/26f, lib 28/90h​

By contrast, 2popping the granary at 29/60h next turn and putting the overflow into the settler yields:

T113 1pop settler
T114 settler done, pop2 18/24f, lib 24/90h ​

The reason is simple: It's better to 1pop the granary, leaving Siberia at pop3 to work all three food tiles, fill the granary faster, getting a bigger food bonus on the granary build (a la Mitchum), etc.
.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Better MM for Moscow/Fish

Pretty sure this is better:

T107 Moscow works gold instead of 3f; Fish works best tiles (no sci)
T108
T109 Moscow works 3f instead of gold to grow to pop9; Fish works gold instead of coast
T110 Moscow works gold again; Fish works best tiles (no sci)​

 

[LowtherCastle]

Exploration
1. Northern wb can cut that corner, because the ice/water tile is useless info no matter what.
2. Southern wb: Imo, this wb can now return SE and go for circumnavigation. The rest of the sheep island can be explored by sending the Pigs warrior with the settler later on. Alternatively, the wb could go just so far west as to make sure there are no more islands to the north, then return SE.
3. Missionary: I would send him straight N immediately and see if we can squeeze NW of Mao to get to Gandhi's land. This might also help with circumnavigation.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Worker MM

Note: These and the above suggestions are relative to your PPP, bcool. In other words, I agree with everything else and I propose these ideas for your consideration.

1. Siberian workers. I would send the first free Siberian deer camper to the Sib-2W deer (not the fur). Much more useful than the second fur for now. The second worker might go straight to the second Fish ivory and improve it.
2. Sugar workers. The second and third can farm the rice next, then scrub the hill(1t), then if one goes to scrub the banana settling site, it's scrubbed just in time for the settler from Siberia (I'm pretty sure).
3. Overseas workers. If the first Moscow settler will be done T112, then these two workers should stagger aboard the galley on T110/111. If Moscow builds a spy, then it's a turn later. Meanwhile these two workers can be scrubbing the plains hill or ivory, as appropriate.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Pigs

I agree with bbp on the granary overflow: put 19h into a galley (at most 19/50h). Other pre-builds should be library (at most 28/90h), and an axe (at most 4/35h). No barracks--bad idea on my part. Hopefully, we won't have time for more pre-builds than that. Pre-build the library before the warrior so hammers hopefully won't dissipate. The galley pre-build is tricky.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Warring

Heck if I know. With the land getting fiiled up on the other side, our chances for worker stealing may be vanishing. We could try to DoW about T109 and see if an axe-escorted stack of chariots can make it to Rheims-1NW, where it can teleport west. Or we could hope a worker comes to road from Marseilles to Rheims. Or we could send a stack to the stone tile (w/DoW), along with a worker, scrub it, and then pick off workers as de Gaulle sends them there to improve the stone. This is perhaps the best solution because it pre-scrubs the stone for us, but the problem is having a free worker for that.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Diplomacy
1. +3 attitude points with Roosy: Maybe we should wait till we have Theology? Then we trade him Theo plus whatever else is needed, hoping he'll start on Hagia. Then on the turn we finish it, he might have a bunch of gold to trade and we trade him Mono or CoL for it.
2. DoP with Stalin: If Currency+CoL doesn't work for Roosy, then I don't see MC+Wtg+Meditation working for Stalin, so we simply wait. I think we'll eventually be able to get peace for an Ice Ball, if nothing else, and that may be the best choice anyway, keeping him tech deprived.
3. Gandhi. As we've discussed, research aesthetics, trade for poly+masonry+IW next turn, then we'll see what happens with mono. We may have to research it ourselves, if we decide to steal Theology.

If...
1. AIs make demands, turn them down, except a cheap tech to Roosy. (We can still get him to Friendly and might want to.)
2. Gandhi wants to give us Galley City, turn him down. It's worth more to us for stealing techs.

That's it, bcool. All of my ideas... As far as I'm concerned, you can play whenever you're ready...

 

[bcool]

We might be able to worker steal from a galley maybe? down the coast near Rheims/Lyons and Churchill?

Scrubbing the stone is interesting idea... but the worker (is it possible to 2 pop with overflow a worker in Pigs instead of the galley?

 

[LowtherCastle]

We might be able to worker steal from a galley maybe? down the coast near Rheims/Lyons and Churchill?

Scrubbing the stone is interesting idea... but the worker (is it possible to 2 pop with overflow a worker in Pigs instead of the galley?

My problem with galley worker stealing is that it's a long way to go and takes our galley away from the Galley CIty canal later. Fruthermore, if dG happens to build a galley, we could lose three units in one shot.

2popping the settler with max overflow is an excellent idea.

 

[bcool]

LC did you test the 4 pop forge (max overflow) and then 2 pop galley (max overflow) in Fish for Colossus build?

Is it better than a 3 pop whip of the forge?

I had the idea but didn't have time to test it last night nor will I have time today.

Edit: the worker in Pigs was bbp's idea (but I thought it would slow down the TGL, but seems workers are in high demand at the moment)

 

[bcool]

Okay, I tested this pretty carefully and what appears to be by far the best is:
T107 switch build back to granary!!!
T108 1pop granary
T109 build library while growing
T111 build settler (we're now at pop4 24/28f)
T112 2pop settler (with 24/24f, we grow back to pop3 even while building a settler!)
T113 settler done, pop3 12/26f, lib 28/90h

Okay will update to reflect this

Worker MM

Note: These and the above suggestions are relative to your PPP, bcool. In other words, I agree with everything else and I propose these ideas for your consideration.

1. Siberian workers. I would send the first free Siberian deer camper to the Sib-2W deer (not the fur). Much more useful than the second fur for now. The second worker might go straight to the second Fish ivory and improve it.
2. Sugar workers. The second and third can farm the rice next, then scrub the hill(1t), then if one goes to scrub the banana settling site, it's scrubbed just in time for the settler from Siberia (I'm pretty sure).
3. Overseas workers. If the first Moscow settler will be done T112, then these two workers should stagger aboard the galley on T110/111. If Moscow builds a spy, then it's a turn later. Meanwhile these two workers can be scrubbing the plains hill or ivory, as appropriate.

1. check
2. where exactly is the banana site?
3. check

Warring

Heck if I know. With the land getting fiiled up on the other side, our chances for worker stealing may be vanishing. We could try to DoW about T109 and see if an axe-escorted stack of chariots can make it to Rheims-1NW, where it can teleport west. Or we could hope a worker comes to road from Marseilles to Rheims. Or we could send a stack to the stone tile (w/DoW), along with a worker, scrub it, and then pick off workers as de Gaulle sends them there to improve the stone. This is perhaps the best solution because it pre-scrubs the stone for us, but the problem is having a free worker for that.

I will either send a stack to scrub stone with a worker produced by Pigs or just try to get an axe and 2 chariots to the other side.

Diplomacy
1. +3 attitude points with Roosy: Maybe we should wait till we have Theology? Then we trade him Theo plus whatever else is needed, hoping he'll start on Hagia. Then on the turn we finish it, he might have a bunch of gold to trade and we trade him Mono or CoL for it.
2. DoP with Stalin: If Currency+CoL doesn't work for Roosy, then I don't see MC+Wtg+Meditation working for Stalin, so we simply wait. I think we'll eventually be able to get peace for an Ice Ball, if nothing else, and that may be the best choice anyway, keeping him tech deprived.
3. Gandhi. As we've discussed, research aesthetics, trade for poly+masonry+IW next turn, then we'll see what happens with mono. We may have to research it ourselves, if we decide to steal Theology.

1. Waiting for Theology sounds good
2. DoP with Stalin is cheaper than +3 relations for Rosey. I think an iceball city is good for Stalin
3. check, makes sense.

f...
1. AIs make demands, turn them down, except a cheap tech to Roosy. (We can still get him to Friendly and might want to.)
2. Gandhi wants to give us Galley City, turn him down. It's worth more to us for stealing techs.

okay.

 

[babybluepants]

LC!

1. Siberian workers. I would send the first free Siberian deer camper to the Sib-2W deer (not the fur). Much more useful than the second fur for now.

Yes, forget the fur. We probably won't even work the first one all that much with the whipping. Keep roading west, too.

Sugar workers. The second and third can farm the rice next, then scrub the hill(1t), then if one goes to scrub the banana settling site, it's scrubbed just in time for the settler from Siberia (I'm pretty sure).

Which rice? The one next to Galley City? Banana is 5fpt, that rice needs a chop, scrub and 2 useless farms to irrigate.

Diplomacy
1. +3 attitude points with Roosy: Maybe we should wait till we have Theology? Then we trade him Theo plus whatever else is needed, hoping he'll start on Hagia. Then on the turn we finish it, he might have a bunch of gold to trade and we trade him Mono or CoL for it.

What exact turn are we expecting Theo? I'll try to figure out some options for the +3...

2. DoP with Stalin: If Currency+CoL doesn't work for Roosy, then I don't see MC+Wtg+Meditation working for Stalin, so we simply wait. I think we'll eventually be able to get peace for an Ice Ball, if nothing else, and that may be the best choice anyway, keeping him tech deprived.

We have peace with Roos already.

Edit: x-post bcool

 

[LowtherCastle]

LC did you test the 4 pop forge (max overflow) and then 2 pop galley (max overflow) in Fish for Colossus build?

Is it better than a 3 pop whip of the forge?

I had the idea but didn't have time to test it last night nor will I have time today.

Edit: the worker in Pigs was bbp's idea (but I thought it would slow down the TGL, but seems workers are in high demand at the moment)

I didn't test teh 4pop forge. I simply assume it'll take too long to grow to pop8. So I was just 3popping it asap. Then I built it by hand. It seems to be done pretty fast. The thing is, poprushing is generally only useful if you prebuild the max-overflows or if you're building units like axes, which only take a couple hammers to reach max overflow.

The worker in Pigs is great because you can prebuild it to (at most) 29/60h in 1 turn using the oveflow from the granary 2pop.

2. where exactly is the banana site?

1W of the easternmost banana, I assume. Don't you think?

2. DoP with Stalin is cheaper than +3 relations for Rosey. I think an iceball city is good for Stalin

Oh yeah, I mixed those two up. Hm...the thing is, DoP with Stalin could mean a few coins every so often, which can be very helpful right now. I could agree with MC for that if it works, in that case. Or I guess MC+one more of the other two. Or all three...what the heck. I see it as more important to speed our teching along than worry about AI tech rate. Let them speed along too. I don't think it will do anything but help us.

--------------

xpost w/bbp

 

[LowtherCastle]

LC!

Hey! It's an intense turnset. The most important of the whole game (as Erkon used to always say about every turnset...)!!!

Which rice? The one next to Galley City? Banana is 5fpt, that rice needs a chop, scrub and 2 useless farms to irrigate.

No, I meant the Pigs rice, wich is almost done and will help Pigs grow faster. bcool's current PPP has those two workers scrubbing the plains hill 1t then farming the rice. I was just reversing that because the worker would then go on to the banana-1W site to scrub.

What exact turn are we expecting Theo? I'll try to figure out some options for the +3...

Depends on whether we build a second spy for it. If we use the first spy, which I'm liking better now, then in 5t, right?

 

[bcool]

I think we should start considering putting the Hanging Gardens in Moscow as well. Not only is this another source of much needed GE points, but it gives us 30 free base hammers in every city (assumes we whip the free pop). With 8 cities (should be more by then), thats 240 hammers, which almost equals the 300 hammers we have to invest (unless we can secure stone in the short term for the 100% bonus). We also get the +1 in every city, which allows every city to grow +1 pop without losing food due to unhealthiness. The question I have is will the AI build an aquaduct due to health issues and the HG sooner than we can build it?

The Hanging Gardens is one of the few wonders that pays for itself while you are in slavery. We might be able to produce it if we consider whipping macemen in other cities instead of building them all in Moscow.