SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[bcool]

Okay so we are or are not building a 2nd spy in Moscow?

 

[LowtherCastle]

The Hanging Gardens is one of the few wonders that pays for itself while you are in slavery. We might be able to produce it if we consider whipping macemen in other cities instead of building them all in Moscow.

I wouldn't bother without stone.

Okay so we are or are not building a 2nd spy in Moscow?

Up to you. We're weighing the possibility of a spy helping with worker stealing sooner versus building Hagia sooner. Will we build Hagia sooner? It will take some worker chops to get it very quickly. Are they available?

Personally, I think I'd go for Theology/Hagia sooner. Kind of forces us to be a bit more aggressive with our MM, maybe building another worker in Siberia or something. Also gives us Theology to trade to Roosy sooner. Makes your turnset more fun...

 

[babybluepants]

Do you wanna propose another PPP? We threw around a lot of ideas, so I think we can use a summary.

Spy: up to you. With the possibility of another DOW very soon, the situation with DG might just keep developing of its own and we won't even get much use out of it in the short term. At this point, I would mainly want a spy over there ahead of the mace attack, so we can find the most convenient turn to land. Maybe that could be built a bit later?

No HG without stone, I agree.

 

[bcool]

taking the worker away from Pigs to scrub stone cripples its development especially if we use 1 worker to scrub the future banana city site.

Would people be really upset if I whipped a worker in Siberia instead of the banana site settler?
I don't see us stealing a worker anytime soon...

If we still want to time the anarchy (from switching to Confu) with 2 settlers on the move (so we can get the necessary espionage bonuses to steal Theology) we need to build the settlers first. That gives us Theology the fastest.

However if we build the 2nd spy before the settlers that gives us a backup spy if we get caught from trying to steal (which has diplo penalties too...)


Test game (a minor hickup with the worker sent two 2nd island that I will fix in real game)
with banana settler built, spy before 2 settlers in Moscow, scrubbing banana site, sending an axe and 2 chariots thru De Gaulle's lands. We are paying for not only units but also a bit for unit supply, so those guys need to steal some workers to pay for themselves.

 

[babybluepants]

Is the sole purpose of switching to Confu to reduce the steal cost? I haven't been paying too much attention to that part of the discussion. We can't steal it without the Confu modifier?

We're basically losing a trading relationship with Gandhi with this move...

 

[bcool]

North wb cuts corner
South wb goes SE to go for circumnavigation
missionary goes N to try to sneak by Mao

T107

Spoiler :

Tech Aesthetics

Moscow starts Forge
works gold mine instead of 3f farm

Fish starts Forge
GP Farm Granary
Siberia switches back to Granary

T108

Spoiler :

Trade for IW, Poly, Masonry (switch to Monotheism depends on possibility of selling for gold)

Moscow
works gold mine instead of 3f farm

W5 Road Silk

Fish

W7, W6 scrub GH 2S of Fish (There is a small difference here in test game from real game, 3 turns in real game left of scrubbing only 2 in test game)

Siberia
1 Pop Granary

W2 moves 1SE (to help with Fish)
W4 finishes deer

Pigs
W10 Scrubs PH 1N

GP Farm
W3, W8 Finish Suger
W9 moves 1SE of GP Farm (to start road to bananas)

T109

Spoiler :

Tech Monotheism (finish this turn maybe at lower % research, in hopes to sell for gold to continue 100% researching)

Moscow
works 3f farm to grow

W5 roads silk

Fish
takes over gold mine
W2 moves to roaded desert and scrubs 1 turn (stops)
W7 scrubs Grass Hill, W8 mines Grass Hill

Siberia
builds library while growing
W4 moves 1SE of irradiated deer

Pigs
Whips Granary

W10 scrubs ivory 1 turn (getting ready to board galley)
W1 scrubs ivory 1 turn
Galley waits

W3, W8 farm rice

GP Farm
W9 roads 1SE of GP Farm

T110

Spoiler :

Moscow
works gold again
spy build starts

W5 roads silk

Fish 2 ocean tiles
W2,W6, W7 mines GH

Siberia
W4 to irradiated deer

Pigs starts Lighthouse (20 hammers) (might have to reduce hammers if want to switch to barracks whip set up)
W3, W8 farm rice

GP Farm
W9 roads 1SE
This depends on spy build or not in Moscow...
W10 scrubs ivory
W1 boards galley
galley waits

T111

Spoiler :

Declare war on De Gaulle
(sandwich archer on our lands btwn chariot and axe, hopefully killing it with the axe on next turn when archer leaves the hill)
Move 2 chariots and an axe into De Gaulle lands going for teleport to the other side.

Moscow

W5,6,7 scrub silk

Fish
W2 to ivory


Siberia
builds settler (or worker?)
W4 scrubs deer

Pigs
Starts Library (leaving 29/60 on worker)
W3,W8 scrub PH
GP Farm
W9 to bananas

W1 disembarks on grassland near clams/fish (not plains for extra hammer on eventual workshop on plains tile)

W10 boards

T112

Spoiler :

Moscow settler
W5,W6, W7 scrubs silk

Fish
W2 roads 2nd ivory

Siberia
2 pop settler (or worker?)
W4 scrubs deer

Pigs

W3, goes to scrub banana site
W8 mine PH

GP Farm
W9 roads bananas

W1 scrubs
W10 disembarks on city site of corn/copper

T113

Spoiler :

Moscow 2nd settler build starts?
works 3 hammer forested hill instead of gold (for forge build in Fish)
T5,6,7 build plantation on 2nd silk

Fish
takes gold (to get 59/120 on forge next turn)
W2 roads 2nd ivory

Siberia

W4 scrubs deer

Pigs

W3, banana site scrubbing
W8 mine PH

GP Farm

W9 roads Bananas
W1 scrubs
W10 moves to corn/copper site

T114

Spoiler :

Moscow
W6,7 finish plantation on 2nd silk

Fish W2 scrubs 2nd ivory

Siberia W4 scrubs deer

Pigs

GP Farm
W3, scrub banana site
W8 mines PH
W9 scrubs bananas
W5 scrubs 1 NE of GP Farm

W1 scrub
W10 scrub

 

[Mitchum]

As much as I want the Hanging Gardens, I agree that we should wait until we have stone. Which means I'm going to press to take Lyons... The stone will be nice for Oxford as well.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Looks fine to me, bcool!

Would people be really upset if I whipped a worker in Siberia instead of the banana site settler?
I don't see us stealing a worker anytime soon...

I have no problem with that.

If we still want to time the anarchy (from switching to Confu) with 2 settlers on the move (so we can get the necessary espionage bonuses to steal Theology) we need to build the settlers first. That gives us Theology the fastest.

However if we build the 2nd spy before the settlers that gives us a backup spy if we get caught from trying to steal (which has diplo penalties too...)

Don't worry about diplo penalties--we're trying it no matter what. To me your choice on the second spy is whether to send the first one down south on T107 or not. Moscow is close enough to Galley City that we can always build another spy if one dies.

with banana settler built, spy before 2 settlers in Moscow, scrubbing banana site, sending an axe and 2 chariots thru De Gaulle's lands. We are paying for not only units but also a bit for unit supply, so those guys need to steal some workers to pay for themselves.

Well, they'll either be able to see the worker at the border or not, regardless of the spy. The spy is more for defense and maybe alerting us where the workers are.

bcool, in your latest PPP, you're putting the Pigs granary overflow into the lh. To me, that's the hardest build to get up to max overflow, because you still need to set up the library, which will take a few turns. The worker you proposed yesterday is easy, because of food-hammers, it only takes 1t. Plus, it's much more valuable than the lh, galley, or barracks at this point, imo.

Is the sole purpose of switching to Confu to reduce the steal cost? I haven't been paying too much attention to that part of the discussion. We can't steal it without the Confu modifier?

Yes. It reduces it by 40%, which is huge. (15% for our religion being in the city while Gandhi runs a different religion. 25% for owning the holy city for our religion)

We're basically losing a trading relationship with Gandhi with this move...

Not by my calcs. We don't need to be at Cautious or above with Gandhi. We just can't be his WE which dG will be for the rest of the game in all likelihood.
.

 

[Mitchum]

I have a few comments on the PPP details:

• T108 - If there is a one-worker-turn difference on the GH 2S of Fish, there could be another one-turn difference on some other tile...
• T109 - W6, not W8, mines the Grass Hill (just to be clear so that you don't get messed up while playing)
• T110 - to be clear you're not working the ivory this turn but a 2F,2C coast tile instead?
• T111 - I assume you're starting a settler this turn after the spy, right? By the way, work the 3H tile and not the 3F tile right away. We get a 50% Burea bonus, 50% Imperialistic bonus and 25% forge bonus on hammers but not on food. It was unclear from you PPP which tiles you're working.
• T111 - It states that we have 29/60 hammers on worker in Pigs, but you started a LH on T110, not a worker.
• T111 - To be clear, W10 borads the galley before W1 disembarks, right?
• T112 - How is W10 already able to disembark on city site of corn/copper. On T111, the galley is on the fish resource, right? Then on T112 you offload on the plains hill, right? Then on T113, you move to the square one W of the copper (this is where the city is going, right?). I guess this is what you're doing. The wording on T112 (W10 disembarks on city site of corn/copper) was confusing me. It's clear now on T113.
• T113 - I only have 53/120 hammers in forge. Can you detail which tiles you work as the city grows please?
• T114 - Do you plan to move the citizen in Moscow from the farm (3F) to the silk (2F,5C) this turn?
• If we're going to build a settler in Siberia, do we need to build 2 settlers in Moscow? We could revolt to Confucianism and steal Theology 1 turn sooner if we only build 1 in Moscow. Or, we could build a worker in Siberia rather than a settler. I don't think we have enough workers to support 3 settlers so quickly...

 

[Mitchum]

STEALING THEOLOGY

To be clear, revolting to Confucianism reduces the epp by 20%, not 40%. We currently get a -20% reduction for Trade Routes. This goes away and we get a -40% State Religion reduction instead.

Strange behavior... in the test game, before revolting to Confucianism, the only techs I could steal were Monarchy, Aesthetics, HBR and Archery. Once I revolted to Confucianism, I could then steal those same four plus Theology. I'm not sure why Theology wasn't an option before I revolted. Ohhhhhh... I get it. We didn't have enough epp to steal Theology prior to the revolt. The extra 20% reduction was needed to be able to steal it. That explains why Philosophy is not on the table too.

By the way, once we steal the tech, we lose all of these expendible epp toward Gandhi. So, if we fail, building another spy will not allow us to quickly steal Theology. Also, it will take us a LONG time to build up enough epp to steal Philosophy. If we really want to steal both Theology and Philosophy from Gandhi, we're going to have to use CHs, spies and/or the espionage slider to do so...

 

[LowtherCastle]

Mitchum, when I used your test save for the espionage tech stealing, I got the 20% for trades and 40% for religion after our government came out of revolt.

 

[Mitchum]

Mitchum, when I used your test save for the espionage tech stealing, I got the 20% for trades and 40% for religion after our government came out of revolt.

Ahhh... I stole the tech while still in revolt. Nice!!

 

[bcool]

sorry some of the errors in the PPP plan stem from quickly trying to edit my previous plan before I left for work this morning.

I have the PPP in pencil in a notebook at home. I'll go through and make sure it is consistent.

I am planning the worker build in pigs, just didn't delete the reference to lighthouse.

 

[bcool]

T108 - If there is a one-worker-turn difference on the GH 2S of Fish, there could be another one-turn difference on some other tile.

..

I might have accidently worldbuilt in a worker to correct a perceived error in my test game and then deleted him (which caused the problem)

T109 - W6, not W8, mines the Grass Hill (just to be clear so that you don't get messed up while playing)

thanks

T110 - to be clear you're not working the ivory this turn but a 2F,2C coast tile instead?

I'll have to double check this when I get home.

T111 - I assume you're starting a settler this turn after the spy, right? By the way, work the 3H tile and not the 3F tile right away. We get a 50% Burea bonus, 50% Imperialistic bonus and 25% forge bonus on hammers but not on food. It was unclear from you PPP which tiles you're working.

Good point on the 3H tile, I'll incorporate this

T111 - It states that we have 29/60 hammers on worker in Pigs, but you started a LH on T110, not a worker.

edit error on my part, it will be a worker

T111 - To be clear, W10 borads the galley before W1 disembarks, right?

Yes might have missed this in my edits.

T112 - How is W10 already able to disembark on city site of corn/copper. On T111, the galley is on the fish resource, right? Then on T112 you offload on the plains hill, right? Then on T113, you move to the square one W of the copper (this is where the city is going, right?). I guess this is what you're doing. The wording on T112 (W10 disembarks on city site of corn/copper) was confusing me. It's clear now on T113.

again a problem with sloppy editting

T113 - I only have 53/120 hammers in forge. Can you detail which tiles you work as the city grows please?

I'll have to do this when I get home

T114 - Do you plan to move the citizen in Moscow from the farm (3F) to the silk (2F,5C) this turn?

I'll let the next player decide...

If we're going to build a settler in Siberia, do we need to build 2 settlers in Moscow? We could revolt to Confucianism and steal Theology 1 turn sooner if we only build 1 in Moscow. Or, we could build a worker in Siberia rather than a settler. I don't think we have enough workers to support 3 settlers so quickly...

Hmmm, interesting idea maybe I will whip a settler in Siberia and build a worker in Moscow instead of the 2nd settler (get the worker to the locations that need it the most faster) Will cause a cascade of changes...

 

[Mitchum]

If we're going to build a settler in Siberia, do we need to build 2 settlers in Moscow? We could revolt to Confucianism and steal Theology 1 turn sooner if we only build 1 in Moscow. Or, we could build a worker in Siberia rather than a settler. I don't think we have enough workers to support 3 settlers so quickly...

Hmmm, interesting idea maybe I will whip a settler in Siberia and build a worker in Moscow instead of the 2nd settler (get the worker to the locations that need it the most faster) Will cause a cascade of changes...

Actually, it's more efficient to build settlers in Moscow than in Siberia due to the bonus on hammers in Moscow (125%) vs. Siberia (50%) and the higher number of hammers produced in Moscow.

I suggest, one settler in Moscow and one settler in Siberia, steal Theology 2 turns sooner and start the Hagia Sophia 2 turns sooner (like building 3 workers, right?). Or, build two settlers in Moscow for the hammer efficiency and a worker in Siberia (if we want another worker sooner). Building settler -> worker in Moscow doesn't seem efficient to me even though the worker is one turn closer to where he's needed...

 

[bcool]

Actually, it's more efficient to build settlers in Moscow than in Siberia due to the bonus on hammers in Moscow (125%) vs. Siberia (50%) and the higher number of hammers produced in Moscow.

I get a 75% bonus on the hammers that go into the worker if built in moscow and 50% in Siberia on the settler

It really isn't that much different than getting 125% bonus on the settler in moscow and 0% in Siberia.

 

[babybluepants]

What's the consensus on number of settlers in the short term? I've been imagining 4 before we start spamming maces.

 

[bcool]

If we build a worker in Siberia I imagine we would be able to whip another settler there. Maybe even 2 before we start building maces, but the amount we should build depends on the # of workers we can capture and how quickly we can build the HS.

 

[LowtherCastle]

The trick of 2popping the settler in Siberia from pop4-pop2 at 24/28f and growing intantly to pop3 can be repeated two or three times, every few turns. I think rather than think in terms of hammer-bonus percentages, let's think in terms of what builds we want to prioritize in Moscow and let Siberia take the burden off of Moscow. So if we need another worker, Siberia builds it, then it builds another settler, for example. Siberia can build wkr-set-set-set too, if we want only 1 in Moscow before Hagia. But that messes up the two oversea settlers sequence I think. Part of the beauty of that sequence is that the galley will be freed up to do something else, rather than just hanging around waiting. So maybe:

1. Mos: set-set-hagia; Sib: wkr-set-set
or
2. Mos: set-Hagia; Sib: set-wkr-set-set

 

[LowtherCastle]

What's the consensus on number of settlers in the short term? I've been imagining 4 before we start spamming maces.

I agree...