SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[babybluepants]

Yes, and I was wrong about the negmods from Roosy. We got -1 for not helping him...

Edit: Guess this post by DanF was wrong or I misinterpreted it.

It's out of context, but it sounds like he's talking about the possibility of an AI dagger not diplo demerits? Is this what you based the Gandhi demand-refusal thing on? I personally can't remember not being hit with -1 for a refusal, though that doesn't mean it's never happened. Are you sure about Gandhi? If not, we need to give in, I think.

 

[bcool]

The plan looks solid to me, btw. Just worried about the GP...

LC's plan is to build a forge in Pigs and run an engineer for 2 turns to make sure Pigs beats Moscow.
Saves Pigs from being forced to do a 2 pop whip of an axe, thus leaving it with more pop to whip a forge.

 

[babybluepants]

Ok.

Edit: I guess it's impossible to save the Pigs forests?

 

[LowtherCastle]

If you do get a chance to pre-scrub a silver city site,
Isn't 1N of the Mountain a better site for the Silver city? (includes the whales in the fat cross, less over lap with the other cities...)

The test save has the whales incorrectly placed. Only an island city could work them. I reviewed the northern tundra and, frankly, I don't like any more sites up there. Not even Silver City. I'll try to leave our options open for my turnset.

One minor note: that cottage next to Moscow in your test save kinda hurts my eyes.

Checked with the eye doctor and he said the only known solution is more warmongering. Moscow is a research center and should have max coins. But I'll probably go to the Fish hill instead, just to make sure you don't go blind.

Edit: I guess it's impossible to save the Pigs forests?

Nope. Hopefully those grass tiles will be workshops before long.

----

Off to the races...

 

[LowtherCastle]

Bad news, guys. Our spy bit the dust. Uploaded for new examination.

Turnset Report

T114
Revolted to Confu
3popped forge in Fish
conducted trading
Revolted to Confu
Gandhi now researching Drama(7t)

T115
DoP with dG
We now have trade routes with Gandhi, Churchill, Mao, and dG
Our trade route income went from 11gpt to 19gpt. Looks like DoW with dG is costly.
Spy dies in vain

 

[babybluepants]

I guess he bit the dust just sitting there, not attempting the steal? Build another.

We really need to get a deal with Roosevelt. The cost of +3 keeps incresing, and we've been waiting quite a while.

Checked with the eye doctor and he said the only known solution is more warmongering. Moscow is a research center and should have max coins. But I'll probably go to the Fish hill instead, just to make sure you don't go blind.

All right, so long as you've got a doctor's note. I'd farm it, but you're probably right.

Nope. Hopefully those grass tiles will be workshops before long.

Now, those I'd definitely farm. What do we need workshops for in our NE city?
Did some calc, and NP for only 2 forests is kind of a waste, I think. nvm...

 

[LowtherCastle]

The spy died trying to steal Theo.

Pigs can have farms too, I suppose. I thought you were wanting to keep the forest for the hammer.

 

[babybluepants]

No, it was kinda for NP, which will suck majorly in this game. We have no more forests, and I imagine the AI's will have cleared all theirs sometime soon.

The spy died trying to steal Theo.

I thought we'd get a -2 for that. Well, good, I guess.

Do you wanna just build another spy and go with market before HS (while waiting on the EP discount)?

 

[LowtherCastle]

I thought we'd get a -2 for that. Well, good, I guess.

Do you wanna just build another spy and go with market before HS (while waiting on the EP discount)?

It even announced that a Russian spy had been caught, so I thought we'd gotten some negs too, but none showed up.

I'm going to play around and see what we can do. I must say that after testing with HS, it's hard to give it up, so I'd still like to try for it. Gandhi's capital is pretty small (not even showing on the Top Five screen), so maybe we have a chance. Wish we could see if he had marble.

We'll have to wait 9t for the next chance to steal Theo. I'm thinking we'll build 2 spies this time. I don't want that happening again. I learned my lesson. I'm also thinking we still switch to OR, maybe between the two spies, then build market-Rax in Moscow. Then try to build HS in 2-3 turns or something. I'll see what I can come up with.

Any help would be appreciated...

 

[babybluepants]

Gandhi's capital is pretty small (not even showing on the Top Five screen), so maybe we have a chance.

Pretty sure that's culture-based, rather than size. Not much you can do anyway, just go for it whenever possible.

I would still prefer to save the forests in Pigs if we can, for more flexibility. Gandhi's on Drama now so no danger there, and the slowdown in HS should slow down Moscow gpp by some 10t, right? It's not too important, though. Play it as you like.

One thing I keep wondering is if we could actually get the 'Mids. With our current production level, it's barely more than 10t...

 

[bcool]

Some ideas to consider

1) build a new spy, but don't wait the full 5 turns (after 1 turn of waiting the odds of success are as good as you are going to get, but we obviously will use more of our )
----Yes maybe this means we probably don't steal Philosophy but at least we get the HS built

2) build 3-4 workers instead of the HS (arguably more efficient worker-wise anyways) build up to steal Philosophy instead

3) Maybe build another wonder for failure gold or build the Parthenon? (and build up to steal philosophy instead)

4) combination of 3&4

stacking spies in the same city increases the odds that they would get caught. Not sure if that was what you were suggesting LC.

edit: x-post, the pyramids hmmm....

 

[LowtherCastle]

The Mids would be a breeze, but expensive without stone.

Okay, here's a save with T122(Colossus)+T125(GLib&HS). Three chops in Moscow instead of 1.

Note: Ignore the extra three workers in Moscow. I just added them because I mis-timed the workers, but they were ready to chop a turn earlier.

 

[babybluepants]

Even though I pretty much never do it, there's hardly a rule against Pyramids sans stone. We'd have, what, 40+ hpt towards it - that's much more than I'd typically have when building it with stone earlier in game, and I'd be majorly sacrificing expansion then.

Kinda liking that option now, maybe even combined with bcool's suggestion of trying to store up EP for Philosophy (can that be done?). The primary reasoning behind Hagia was to get GE points. We can just put some effort into worker spamming.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Anyone know a link to how Great General Combat Experience points are accumulated? I tried testing this with Imperialistic and I get anywhere from 2 to 6 points per victory. We currently have 3 points from beating the archer.

How does that all get calculated? A quick GG might be a much better solution than Theocracy.

 

[babybluepants]

I thought it was literally the amount of XP your units gain through battle with AI. Don't know how IMP works, but 3 would make sense if the unit gained 2XP (+50%)

 

[Mitchum]

Okay, here's a save with T122(Colossus)+T125(GLib&HS). Three chops in Moscow instead of 1.

Just looked at the save. I'm not thrilled about Moscow being stuck at 9 pops with 6 spare happiness and the two silk being unworked for how many turns? I understand that you're trying for the soonest HS, but it just seems sub-optimal...

How many turns was the spy stationary in Galley City before stealing Theology?

I like the 'Mids, but they are twice as expensive as HS without stone. We don't really need Rep for happiness at the moment (silver will give us another +1/+2 in each city too) and the benefit from the extra 3 beakers per specialist won't be game changing in the short term. I think HS > 'Mids in this game considering the hammer to benefit ratio. If we had stone, that would be a different matter...

 

[babybluepants]

I pretty much always take a super-medic with my first GG, btw. Military Instructor is a bit meh, unless you're committed to long-term military prod in the city (HE, etc). This may well be an exception, though, since we're most likely building 3/4+ of our mid-term units in Moscow...

 

[babybluepants]

I think HS > 'Mids in this game

No freakin' way. We have significant food surplus in all the current cities (save for Moscow - in which farms > cottages, IMHO), and we'll have TGL, while pretty much crashing our slider economy via REX / war very soon. And, there's no AI cash to trade for.

You've talked yourself into liking Theo and HS. None of us have built it before, and bcool showed it's barely even hammer-efficient compared to workers. The decision was made purely for GE points, IIRC.

Edit: I think this could be almost a pure SE game. If we had Rep, I'd actually just settle the upcoming GS's, since we're in no rush for unlocking Unis.

Edit2: The issue for me is not whether Mids are worth it per hammer, but that we could try for it and just totally fail 4t later... That's why I haven't really brought it up before.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Btw, in the T125(HS) above, Moscow had also completed Market+Rax.

T122(Colossus)/T124(Mids)/T125(GLib). Moscow builds only the Pyramids and 1 spy.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Just looked at the save. I'm not thrilled about Moscow being stuck at 9 pops with 6 spare happiness and the two silk being unworked for how many turns? I understand that you're trying for the soonest HS, but it just seems sub-optimal...

How many turns was the spy stationary in Galley City before stealing Theology?

Moscow worked 1 silk most of the time.

Spy was stationary 5t.