SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[bcool]

Ok, Ok I give up on GP Farm Oxford

thanks for entertaining the idea

We can just build the Iron Works somewhere else, if we decide Moscow is a good place for the Heroic Epic.

 

[mdy]

LC do you know the odds of a CR 2 mace winninig against an axe/sword/archer if we only reduce the defences to 28% or 12%? If we can get 2XP on our units everytime we attack a city like Paris we should easily get a 10 XP unit as well a 2nd GG allowing us to settle the current one in fish.

I think the odds of a Hanging Gardens build (if we wait for stone hook up) is very low, so the Heroic Epic in Moscow could be very nice instead.

The HG are something of a longshot, but if we can give it it will give us a massive boost, so I think we should at least try for it. If someone else builds it first we can always build a courthouse/monastry/mace(s) there instead. We should be able to build the Heroic Epic a few turns later regardless.


I'll post a revised plan in an hour or two.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Observations from bcool's test save
1. Eps are important for monitoring Gandhi's progress toward Liberalism.
2. We mustn't neglect grass farms in Fish and Siberia.
3. NE in Pigs asap may be more important than I thought.

General Observations
1. IntelBureau+courthouse+3spyspecs = 33 per turn. *3cities = 100per turn. Who needs diplomacy? All the more reason to get Communism asap. But how?
2. Beijing + Shanghai + 2 chs + 4 spyspecs = 39 per turn (the equivalent of ch+spyspec in 6.5 other cities)

bcool's test save really got me thinking. Probably the fastest way to beeline Communism will be to have a massive poprushing phase, followed by growth and then a CS phase. I'd like to take today to think about this. Hope this doesn't uspet any plans you might have had, mdy. Oxford in GP Farm really might be a better idea. I had forgotten about the binary research. Furthermore, I think we should be able to get Oxford done in GP faster than in Moscow (assuming we don't want to poprush Moscow to death). Edit: Oxford is easily finished in Moscow in 1 or 2 turns without any poprushing.

xpost: mdy, interesting question, I'll check on those %s and see at what % we can minimize the attack danger and still get the +2XP.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Used BUFFY instead of the calculator, to make sure the numbers are right and the 0% numbers are slightly worse against the CG1archer and c1axe! Please note!

     CG1arch C1Axe C1Sword    C1Sword(amphibious)
     ------- ----- -------    -------------------
60%    71%    66%    78%
       3XP    3XP    3XP

44%    75%    73%    91%    
       2XP    3XP    2XP

28%    87%    79%    97%
       2XP    2XP    2XP

13%    94%    91%    99.05%
       2XP    2XP    [COLOR="Green"]2XP                           (not a typo!)[/COLOR]

 0%    [COLOR="Blue"]96%    97%[/COLOR]    99.35%   [COLOR="red"]88%[/COLOR]
       2XP    2XP    1XP      2xp

Looks like it's definitely safest to take it down to 0%. Furthermore, my idea for an amphibious attack against the two c1swords carries some risk. If the spy sees no reinforcements coming, probably better to wait another turn to finish them off.

Edit: Also note that all these numbers are against 25% fortified units. The spy can observe each turn, before the war, to see if any of those units move in and out. For example, against the C1swords, the XP quickly comes up to 2XP if they aren't 25% fortified (at 0% culture defense).

 

[bcool]

I noticed bbp and LC commenting on Gandhi progress towards liberalism in my test games, and I may be misleading them because I traded Gandhi paper (for 300+ gold and horseback riding) Maybe that is why they think Gandhi is a liberalism risk. I honestly don't think he is.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I noticed bbp and LC commenting on Gandhi progress towards liberalism in my test games, and I may be misleading them because I traded Gandhi paper (for 300+ gold and horseback riding) Maybe that is why they think Gandhi is a liberalism risk. I honestly don't think he is.

Trading anybody Paper could be catastrophic. We absolutely don't want to do that. Now that Gandhi has Philo, Paper is our only barrier for stopping him from beelining Lib, which he will do often.

 

[mdy]

Revised plan:


Research: Construction-Education via GS bulb. If an AI has a large amount of spare gold sell him some rubbish tech.

Fish:
T+1: Mace, settle GG
T+3: Mace (2pop)
T+4: Catapult
T+6: Mace (2pop)
T+7: Catapult
Slow build maces until we discover education
T+15 University (3pop)

Moscow:
T+3:Hagia Sophia (work plains farm for 1 turn)
T+4:Barracks
T+5:Mace
T+6:Mace
T+8:Aquaduct
T+11:Hanging Gardens
T+15:University

Send 2 workers to build plains mine, and then start building the 2 cottages (the one on the fort and near fish city)

Bermuda:
Continue to build granary, whip when possible.
Then start Library.
Workers road pigs, pasture and hook up sheep, then builds mines

Bahamas:
Start forge (1T)
T+3: Lighthouse (2 pop whip)
T+9L Forge (3 pop whip)
T+11 Library (1 pop whip)
T+15 University (3 pop whip and chop)
worker builds mine, roads mine, roads grass, chops forest, roads old forest tile.

This city works coast instead of plains hill mines where possible until library built, then work mines instead of non seafood coast.

Cuba:
Whip workboat, overflow into granary (while we can still whip one there?)
Send workboat to Bahamas.

Rheims:
Start library once out of revolt.
Workers scrub stone and corn/gems. Micro so we can get the stone quarried as soon as the borders expand (4 workers at T+8). Send 1 chariot to garrison pigs.

Pigs:
T+2 forge (3pop whip) work 3 foods and 2 scientists.
Start courthouse.
Whip courthouse turn before we get education
Overflow into university, whip as soon as we can and still work all 3 foods.
A it grows work in order farms, elephants, mines.
Workers scrub and mine grass hill, then scrub and farm grasslands. One starts pre building mine for Bananas

GP Farm:
T+5: Forge(3 pop whip)
T+7: Library ( 2pop whip)
Start courthouse, switch to university once we have education, whip as soon as we can and still work all food sources.
workers scrub the grassland to put down farms.

Siberia:
T+1: Settler(whipped)
Start courthouse, whip the turn before we get education.
Overflow into university.
Whip university as soon as we can and still work all thee food sources afterwards.
worker scrubs and hooks up silver, then starts scrubbing grassland in Siberia.

Send settler to found the bananas site.


Sign a cease fire agreement with De Gaulle. Do this by sending a chariot to NW W of Rheims.

DOW France When forces are in position load combat 1, and a CR 1 mace onto galley together with 2 catapults. Unload next turn next to Paris. Immediately load remaining 4 maces onto galleys. Bombard city defenses next turn and unload galleys. The next turn the defenses are stripped to 0 and our maces take Paris on T+11.

I propose promoting one of our maces to combat 1 so it can become a medic after we take Paris.

Southern front:
Before we attack Paris take any worker stealing opportunities that arise. After that remain on the defensive, but make sure we have at least 1 unit within 2 tiles of Orleans/Mareseilles to stop him moving his units out..

 

[babybluepants]

I noticed bbp and LC commenting on Gandhi progress towards liberalism in my test games, and I may be misleading them because I traded Gandhi paper (for 300+ gold and horseback riding) Maybe that is why they think Gandhi is a liberalism risk. I honestly don't think he is.

Ok, though I'm pretty sure he beat me to Paper in some earlier tests. The point is that he has Philo+CS+Theo, and he can be a Lib freak in my experience.

 

[bcool]

Fish:
T+1: Mace, settle GG
T+3: Mace (2pop)
T+4: Catapult
T+6: Mace (2pop)
T+7: Catapult
Slow build maces until we discover education
T+15 University (3pop)

If we are going to settle the GG in Fish we might as well delay the Macemen currently being built there. I suggest
T+0 switch to confu missionary (for GP Farm which will not get confu auto spread since it already has buddhism)
T+1 settle GG
T+2 finish confu missionary
T+3 finish macemen build
T+4 start catapult
T+5 finish catapult build with a 1 pop whip
T+6 2nd catapult
T+8 macemen whipped?
slow build macemen until Education

Southern front:
Before we attack Paris take any worker stealing opportunities that arise. After that remain on the defensive, but make sure we have at least 1 unit within 2 tiles of Orleans/Mareseilles to stop him moving his units out..

In the test DeG will attack a lone unit or a stack of units on open ground since his C1 axes have good odds even against one of our unpromoted axes.

Siberia:
T+1: Settler(whipped)
Start courthouse, whip the turn before we get education.
Overflow into university.
Whip university as soon as we can and still work all thee food sources afterwards.
worker scrubs and hooks up silver, then starts scrubbing grassland in Siberia.

I think we want to whip the courthouse as soon as we can and still work the 4 food tiles. That courthouse is valuable as soon as we can get it for the and the gold savings. More important than the best overflow into university I think. Siberia could then build another spy to eventually steal philosophy from Gandhi with the extra turns.

edit: sorry more later after I look at the game in more detail.

 

[babybluepants]

Edited China into our 500 AD test save.
I think I got all the buildings. Units/promos are based on what he had in the test save (don't know how else to estimate). Fixed tech. Haven't edited France at all, but I had to delete some stuff, so DG is marginally weaker.
No idea if I screwed anything else up in the process...

 

[mdy]

I think we want to whip the courthouse as soon as we can and still work the 4 food tiles. That courthouse is valuable as soon as we can get it for the and the gold savings. More important than the best overflow into university I think. Siberia could then build another spy to eventually steal philosophy from Gandhi with the extra turns.

We can't whip immediately unless we want to stop working wither scientists or the food. We can do a 3 pop whip on T+6 for the courthouse, and put the overflow into the National Epic, however if we did do this we would need to start working the mines instead of grass farms once the city started growing again if we wanted the university on time in pigs.

We can also do a T+3 whip for the courthouse in Siberia, we could put the overflow into a missionary for pigs and whip it the turn before we discover education. The uni can then be whipped 1T after discovering education.

I think we may as well complete the mace in pigs. 2 CR2 maces should be more than enough for our immediate needs, and doing it this way means we will have 1 more mace available for the attack, which depending on the circumstances might speed up the capture of Paris and/or Lyons by a turn. For the assault on Paris/Lyons it won't make much difference whether a mace is CR1 or CR2, and afterwards our city raider maces should all be at CR2 afterwards anyway so i don't think the extra XP matters that much.

In the test DeG will attack a lone unit or a stack of units on open ground since his C1 axes have good odds even against one of our unpromoted axes.

Do you know if this is also true of 2 units? We can at least position the Marseilles units so he can't attack them immediately next turn. Maybe we should let him move his units out of Orleans, they will be easier to deal with in Paris, and we have enough units to take care of them.

 

[LowtherCastle]

DOW France When forces are in position load combat 1, and a CR 1 mace onto galley together with 2 catapults. Unload next turn next to Paris. Immediately load remaining 4 maces onto galleys. Bombard city defenses next turn and unload galleys. The next turn the defenses are stripped to 0 and our maces take Paris on T+11.

I don't quite understand how you will put the remaining 4 maces on the galley immediately.

 

[bcool]

We can't whip immediately unless we want to stop working wither scientists or the food. We can do a 3 pop whip on T+6 for the courthouse, and put the overflow into the National Epic, however if we did do this we would need to start working the mines instead of grass farms once the city started growing again if we wanted the university on time in pigs.

We can also do a T+3 whip for the courthouse in Siberia, we could put the overflow into a missionary for pigs and whip it the turn before we discover education. The uni can then be whipped 1T after discovering education.

I was only talking about whipping the courthouse in Siberia, not whipping it in Pigs. I understand we need to work food and run scientists in Pigs after whips (or Moscow beats Pigs to the Great Person).

Unfortunately confu isn't in the real game's siberia. So we can only build missionaries in Moscow, Fish, and Pigs. I think building at least 1 confu missionary for the GP Farm will pay off even if it means 1 fewer maces in the stack to attack DeG. We could make up for that missing mace by attaching the GG to a warrior and promoting him. (I think I'm going to lose that argument though and I don't feel super strong about it, although I think you guys are underestimating the GG leadership promotion for a unit under an imperialist leader)

I think we may as well complete the mace in pigs. 2 CR2 maces should be more than enough for our immediate needs, and doing it this way means we will have 1 more mace available for the attack, which depending on the circumstances might speed up the capture of Paris and/or Lyons by a turn. For the assault on Paris/Lyons it won't make much difference whether a mace is CR1 or CR2, and afterwards our city raider maces should all be at CR2 afterwards anyway so i don't think the extra XP matters that much.

I agree having more units is better, I was just trying to balance the needs for a confu missionary.

Do you know if this is also true of 2 units? We can at least position the Marseilles units so he can't attack them immediately next turn. Maybe we should let him move his units out of Orleans, they will be easier to deal with in Paris, and we have enough units to take care of them.

He attacked my stacks when he had favorable odds against me (a wounded macemen was attacked, an unpromoted axe was attacked). He might even attack a lone macemen since he has quite a few units in that stack.

 

[babybluepants]

Yeah, there seems to be an extra turn, unless I'm missing something.

Confu missionary's good.

Edit: x-post.

Edit2: my test save above is screwy. Forget it for now.

 

[bcool]

Bermuda:
Continue to build granary, whip when possible.
Then start Library.
Workers road pigs, pasture and hook up sheep, then builds mines

I think Bermuda might be better off interrupting the granary build by switching to a workboat to time a whip and regrow back to 3 pop so it can work the fish.

 

[LowtherCastle]

mdy, if you feel comfortable with your plan, I'm fine with it. My only question would also have to do with COnfuciansim in both Siberia and GP Farm. You might want to try out building one in Fish, as bcool suggested, and the other in Pigs immediately and 2popping next turn. Maybe that will work with the rest of your plan.

 

[LowtherCastle]

If Bahamas are the slowest link in getting the universities done, another alternative would be to spread COnfucianism to it on T+9 (T144). Build the confu miss in FIsh and whip a galley in Pigs on T+1. The miss can board the galley from the hill 1W of the pig pasture on T140.

 

[mdy]

If Bahamas are the slowest link in getting the universities done, another alternative would be to spread COnfucianism to it on T+9 (T144). Build the confu miss in FIsh and whip a galley in Pigs on T+1. The miss can board the galley from the hill 1W of the pig pasture on T140.

Assuming we get the HG the university in Moscow will build her uni the same turn as Bahamas so it won't actually gain us anything.


We need a back up in case the AI builds the HG before us. We could go for the Parthenon in the capital. Alternatively we could build a courthouse/monastry there.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'm in favor of HE in Moscow, if we get to 10XP. I think a monastery will also pay off, if we don't wait too long. COUld also just be cats. I'm REALLY interested in capturing Beijing asap, now that I've studied the Intel Bureau a bit.

WHen are you planning to play?

 

[babybluepants]

How much of a contribution will Parthenon make?

I think we really should decide now or quite soon about Labour civic, btw. LC suggested a Caste run earlier today. I'm still unsure about whether we're intending to pop the next GP from Moscow, in which case I would still like to run an eng a bit, and whether we intend to push pure GS for bulbing beyond the Educ one. All the single-civic switching is adding up now, too, and Pac requires a tech steal + lots of extra unit maintenance.

Edit: x-post. HE or unit spam would be a good alternative to HG, yes.