SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[LowtherCastle]

For some reason, I'm finding this nearly impossible to do. Keep making mistakes and only discovering them 2-3t later. Anyway, 3 hrs later, here's a completely imperfect 840 AD save. Some cities may be off a touch. Units, improvements and money are off. Really have to stop for tonight, but I can fix it up further first thing tmr.

By my comparison, your city MM is off here:

The real save has:
MOscow: +1f
Fish: +1f
GP: -3f
Berm: +3f

That's really simple to fix if you have the save from the turn before. Just use WB to doctor the totals. (Add a baray in Moscow and Fish, work a 1f tile instead of sugar in GP, add flood plains lol over the Bermuda pigs).

 

[bcool]

I think I can fix the test game from here bbp. It is good enough to play around with and I'll fix the hammer food imbalance after I play 1 turn in the real game.

Thanks for the hard work. I'm sure I'll feel your pain at the end of this turn set.

I moved units around in the test game I think the units are pretty close.

 

[babybluepants]

By my comparison, your city MM is off here:

The real save has:
MOscow: +1f
Fish: +1f
GP: -3f
Berm: +3f

That's fixed. The only thing off right now, by my count, is that we're missing 5h in Bahamas Moai. Won't be fixing that, since it's just cash.

I also deleted the GS and added the GE, fixed the military units (I think), and total cash. Beakers are off by +4. Money is tricky, as we're getting much more TR income in the real save.

Workers are in correct places, but actions aren't exactly right yet.

Edit: x-post w bcool

 

[bcool]

ah well okay, thanks for fixing the test game.

I guess we need a "got it" system for the test game too. My bad I guess since bbp said he had it.


Edit: okay caused a war between DeG and Churchill, put in Churchill's nearby units. Gave Churchill steampower took away electricity.

moved galleys to correct locations

 

[LowtherCastle]

bbp, do you happen to have a test save version after capturing Paris, but before it comes out of revolt? I'ld like to test some stuff on that.

 

[babybluepants]

Anyway, Beijing and Guangzhou the real prizes, with their potential for an Intel Agency. So I'm okay on delaying Shanghai

YES!

Does your plan still include catapult builds? With or without XP?

I just don't see a reason to rush to Shanghai. The goal should be capturing Shanghai-Beijing-Guangzhou as a minimum, with the possibility of continuing forward from there.

I'd actually mainly like to capture Washington (GLH) as soon as possible.

In the short term, I'd consider the following:

• Doesn't seem like we have enough maces for even the initial China campaign. It makes more sense to me to build maces, rather than catapults, before Engineering.
• We could do simulations, if you guys prefer, but I seriously doubt that no-promo siege is even hammer-efficient now that we're facing LB's.
• I asked for barracks in Siberia and/or GP and/or earlier Bananas a while ago. Realize that we had more important things to build and that the first two should be running specialists very soon. Still, it would be really helpful to somehow get another 1-2 options for unit spam.

btw, catapults don't upgrade to trebuchets, do they?

 

[bcool]

no catapults don't upgrade to treb.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Does your plan still include catapult builds? With or without XP?

Doesn't seem like we have enough maces for even the initial China campaign. It makes more sense to me to build maces, rather than catapults, before Engineering.

Obviously it all depends on what we have left over from the Orleans capture. I've been assuming that 6 maces is enough for Mao. Two maces with the four accuracy cats by sea, and 4 maces with 5 trebs and 1 cat by land. That's:

6 CRII maces
4 accuracy cats
5 CRII trbs
1 CRII cat (made in Moscow while waiting for HE)

My planning now has all of that coming from Fish and Moscow.

So there are two stopping points in the immediate future:
1. If the Orleans campaign starts out with some major bad luck, then stop immediately to rethink our Orleans plans. No point in suiciding our 2 swords and chariots against stupid odds.
2. If the Orleans campaign is successful but leaves us with fewer than 6 maces. Then we may need to re-sequence our builds.

Delaying Shanghai till T168 is already extremely builderish. We don't want to become WIMPS in the process.

 

[LowtherCastle]

One more thought on Paris: How about we immediately put the COnfu Miss in GP Farm on the galley that will transport the chariot to Paris? THen next turn we can try to spread COnfu so Paris can work the corn a turn sooner and get +15h on the granary 2pop.

 

[bcool]

confu missionary was already part of my plan, just tried the capture of Orleans in the test game

Test game is too different than the original game, so results are probably not useful... however

Put the same units I saw in DeG cities in the test game and he moved everything to Orleans delaying capture by a 3+ turns. I suppose I can try scripts to see what happens with those, and maybe put a chariot on the hill with axes to threaten it? Also Churchill even though he was at war with DeG pulled the units I place back. (Again I probably have to put in scripts)

One argument for moving stack 1E of Orleans instead of 1NE is that we would be able to ambush units if they did try to reinforce Orleans from Marseilles.

Also Paris came out of revolt for 1 turn and then went into revolt (had a mace and a chariot there--not sure what the odds are for that in the real game but that would be really bad I imagine. I don't think there is much we can do about that.)

1st run through was just getting the feel for what might happen and looking at the city builds.

Some small ideas...
build a fort 1NW of Bahamas (so Bahamas can build the galley after the courthouse that we could use to transport missionaries and later settlers etc.) --It lets Bananas or Cuba whip more infrastructure before the switch over to Pacifism and Caste system

Issues to debate still...
Steal Philosophy asap? Leave spy in Galley city starting when?
I'm thinking that we should be ready to steal it as soon as we can see Gandhi's research. If he isn't researching education or if he is taking a long time to do it, I think we can safely steal philosophy and divert espionage to Mao.

 

[babybluepants]

Test game is too different than the original game, so results are probably not useful... however

Put the same units I saw in DeG cities in the test game and he moved everything to Orleans delaying capture by a 3+ turns. I suppose I can try scripts to see what happens with those, and maybe put a chariot on the hill with axes to threaten it? Also Churchill even though he was at war with DeG pulled the units I place back. (Again I probably have to put in scripts)

One argument for moving stack 1E of Orleans instead of 1NE is that we would be able to ambush units if they did try to reinforce Orleans from Marseilles.

You really can't trust the test game for any of this. All DG did was send 1 archer from somewhere (either Orleans or Lyons) into Paris, and 1 sword from Paris to Marseilles crazyeye during the last war. I think the Tours capture confused him into fortifying everything in Marseilles semi-permanently, so I'm not sure about the danger of reinforcement from there.

I was previously planning to move to the hill 1E of Orleans. Reinforcements (1 archer maybe) from Lyons would end up 1NE of Orleans the next turn, which is an easy pick for a mace.

Reality is we may be a touch short of units for this capture, but it's close enough to try. You'll just have to pause for reconsideration if there's major troop movement on his end.

Some small ideas...
build a fort 1NW of Bahamas (so Bahamas can build the galley after the courthouse that we could use to transport missionaries and later settlers etc.) --It lets Bananas or Cuba whip more infrastructure before the switch over to Pacifism and Caste system

That sounds good, esp. as those workers have nothing too useful to do.

Delaying Shanghai till T168 is already extremely builderish. We don't want to become WIMPS in the process.

No, I suppose we do not...

Obviously it all depends on what we have left over from the Orleans capture.

Well... yes.

I think I got quite lucky not losing a unit in Paris, tbh. My point about building maces during the Eng wait stands, I would think. We're talking about 1-2 units, which would be insurance against losing 1-2 at some point soon, and we'd then replace cats with trebs. The delay is presumably only 1-2t? I'll look at the planning in more detail later. Sounds about reasonable at a glance actually. I'm just nitpicking right now.

So, where is the missionary going?

 

[mdy]

I think we might need a couple more maces for the China war. China is bound to have a stack of units lying around so we will probably have to fight off a counter attack at some point, and 6 maces which will already be damaged may not be enough. Unless China reinforces Shanghai 3 suicide trebs should be enough to take that city. We could then use the production freed up to build another 2 maces. Further suicide trebs to allow us to take the rest f the cities could then follow.

If we are going to use galleys to transport units we will need to build a trieme or 2 to protect them, as it does not look like it will gain us anytime why don't we just send them all by land?

I think we should steal philosophy as soon as we can see Gandhi's research, I also think that we should build a second spy in case Gandhi discovers our first again.

 

[bcool]

Tech plan
Engineering, Gunpowder, Chemistry, Printing Press (with plan to reassess when see Gandhi's research)
Research Engineering at 100% when Oxford is complete for +1 road movement

Trades
MC to Gandhi for gold, maps, archery
Trade Churchill Iron
Cancel trades to Gandhi
Trade for his spare iron with non-health resources
If Roosevelt gets Optics trade for his maps every 2-3 turns for 5 gold (for circumnavigation)
Look for Gold trades (BUT DON'T TRADE PAPER )
Trade Machinery to Gandhi if Mao finishes (check EVERY turn)

Builds

Moscow
catapult mace (partial) - Oxford (finish) - catapult mace (finish) - Heroic Epic - Treb (until we have 5?)
edit adjust MM to insure 2 turn HE after mace

Fish
whip catapult (1 pop) - catapult (finish in 1 turn) - macemen? - treb?

Siberia
Parthenon (grow 1 more so can hire spy after whip) - 2 pop confu missionary spy - grow with Parthenon - confu missionary (2 pop) - grow on Parthenon

Kamchatka
workboat (whip when will grow back to 2 pop next turn) - granary - lighthouse - library? - courthouse

Rheims
1 pop whip library next turn, overflow to catapult?, courthouse? forge?

GP Farm
Oxford (for failure gold) ( I get to build it here at least for 1 turn ) - catapult (2 pop) - overflow Parthenon - confu missionary?/catapult? - Parthenon

Pigs
NE (take ivory to finish it in 1 turn), Courthouse whip it when we can run 2 scientists and a spy afterwards), lighthouse, ??

Cuba
lighthouse overflow in Moai, courthouse

Bahamas
3 pop courthouse next turn, galley (whip 1 or 2 pop), overflow into Moai and finish Moai

Bermuda
overflow to Moai, switch courthouse, Moai after whip for 1 turn, Forge/Settler?

Paris
Granary 2 pop with confu hopefully, Galley trireme 2 pop, Galley, Galley, Forge

Important Worker Goals
Silver Mine
Grass Farms for Siberia, Fish
Forts for Mao Assault
Fort for Galley from Bahamas

Military action
Follow LC's plan for Orleans

T152
Cancel ALL worker actions!!! Everywhere (play it safe).
Move Pigs chariot toward galley to garrison in Paris T153.
Move medic mace to hill at Paris-1SW
Move Paris mace and Paris-1S mace to same hill at Paris-1SW
Paris is now unguarded, but Orleans cannot move any units to the Paris-SW hill, but only to the plains. If needed, we can attack them or send 1, 2 or 3 of our maces back to Paris to defend.
Move rest of the stack to Orleans-NE (not to the hill at Orleans-E!!!) from here a unit can move back to Pairs in 1t after capturing Orleans, if needed.
Road the tile 1NW of our northwestern gems.
Move the Rheims mace NW to the hill at Orleans-2SW
Move the two swords to the hill at Orleans-2SW
Move the two axes back S to our gems tile. They are still threatening Marseilles from here.
The four workers at Paris-S all build a fort there for 1 turn.

T153
Move the galley+chariot into Paris and disembark
Move the Medic mace into Paris
Move the other two maces 1SW to Orleans-1NE
Bombard Orleans
Move the mace+2swords 1NE to Orleans-1SW
Move the 2 chariots in Rheims to the hill at Orleans-2SW
3 workers finish the fort, while the fourth goes to the stack at Orleans-1NE

Now you have 6 maces, 2 swords and 2 chariots that can attack Orleans on T154. Hopefully that's enough, although dG could draft or poprush more...

If encounter significant losses and/or significant resistance stop to reassess if can't capture on T155

Plan for Mao assault
Primarily the fort building outlined in the Orleans plan above for now and imbedded in military unit builds

Missionaries
Missionary in GP Farm going to Paris
Missionary coming back from his epic walk-about will be sent to hang out in Bananas (awaiting transport to islands --the cities least likely to get confu auto spread to them since they are the farthest away.
Missionary built in Siberia could be sent to Kamchatka (to help accelerate that city's development)

Random Questions
I'm assuming we are not planning on finishing the Parthenon, so maybe we should be putting overflows into MoM instead?

Steal Philosophy asap? Leave spy in Galley city starting when?
I'm thinking that we should be ready to steal it as soon as we can see Gandhi's research. If he isn't researching education or if he is taking a long time to do it, I think we can safely steal philosophy and divert espionage to Mao.

How soon do we want a crab or spices city on the far island past Bahamas?

Stopping if...
1. If the Orleans campaign starts out with some major bad luck, then stop immediately to rethink our Orleans plans. No point in suiciding our 2 swords and chariots against stupid odds.
2. If the Orleans campaign is successful but leaves us with fewer than 6 maces. Then we may need to re-sequence our builds.
3. when see Gandhi's research to reassess liberalism threat
4. In 4 turns no matter what

I probably could play 4 (or fewer) turns today if everyone gets a chance to give me feedback.

x-post with mdy

 

[LowtherCastle]

GP Farm
Oxford (for failure gold) ( I get to build it here at least for 1 turn )

Too funny!

bcool ideas I agree with
* Fort at Bahama-NW + infra at Cuba/Bermuda

Note: Idle workers can scrub or start building workshops, so there's always work to be done. Even farms can be pre-workshopped. Just saying, I don't think our workers are that idle yet and soon I think we'll wish we had more...

* MoM instead of Parthenon for failed gold
* Rest of PPP

Changes to the new PPP I agree with
* Agree with mdy on needing more spies--maybe the second COnfuMiss in Siberia could be a spy instead
* Agree with bbp on more maces. bcool you could build a mace now rather than the catapult in Moscow. We don't want to delay HE, though, so I would sacrifice growth for hammers to get enough overflow for mace(1t)-Oxford-Mace(1t)-HE (2t w/OF). I checked it out and it should work, no probs. Something like: 3f goes to 1f3h1g + 3f goes to 2f1h1g for the mace. (whatever works)
* In Paris, since we're delaying the Mao attack, I'd change build sequence to granary-trireme-galley-galley. This is much safer and I think whould be okay on timing, although I haven't checked it carefully. THe trireme will get 2XP which will be hard to kill by a galley.
* EDIT: Kamchatka: I think the ch is higher priority than the forge...

Possible additions to PPP
* Cancel Roosy trades and consolidate into a single gpt trade? (leave the wheat deal alone, of course)

-------------------

I'm okay with you playing today. Good luck!!!
.

 

[babybluepants]

@PPP,

Do we need a lighthouse in Kamchatka asap? If we could get gran-forge before the Caste switch that might be best.

Rheims: ok to whip so long as we keep working corn+2gems.

We're finishing Moai in Bahamas??

Bermuda: I think I'd do forge first. We have some base production for CH after Caste switch.

I get to build it here at least for 1 turn

Go for it!

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'm not even sure I checked every city over the last two turns.

Be careful. Sid likes to assign engineer specialists when cities grow (like in Bahamas).

Something I wanted to mention that I learned long ago from the Civilization great SirPleb. He followed a sequence at the end of each of his turns to make sure everything was in order. I don't have the link, but it doesn't matter. Each person should do what works for them. THis is what I have been doing in this SG:

Before end-of-turn <enter>:

1. Check dG attack units (make sure I didn't overlook anything. Actually better done at the beginning, before moving our units.)
2. Check trades/new AI techs/Espionage/etc.
3. City MM (use right arrow to cycle through quickly)
4. Check our research (always last since MM can change things, but last prolly not important for 0/100%)
5. save file

 

[babybluepants]

^^ Yeah, I do something like that every turn, as well. I've been a touch lazy with checking sabotage prod every turn is all. I just noted more substantial builds every 2-3t and focused on those during in-between turns. Also, kinda lost track of everything with the chopped up turnset towards the end.

 

[bcool]

* EDIT: Kamchatka: I think the ch is higher priority than the forge...

@LC did you means Rheims?

Kamchatka
workboat (whip when will grow back to 2 pop next turn) - granary - lighthouse - library? - courthouse

Rheims
1 pop whip library next turn, overflow to catapult?, courthouse? forge?

I'm thinking that whipping courthouses is more important than forges since it seems like is worth more in this game than most games (at least worth 2 times as much ) and the gold savings is also now worth a lot more than an equivalent amount of . Although I can go with the forge before the courthouses if we think this is best. Maybe far cities courthouse first then forge?

Do we need a lighthouse in Kamchatka asap? If we could get gran-forge before the Caste switch that might be best.

I suppose not if the plan is run scientists here. We will build one though and the earlier we do the faster the growth and future builds. Running a few ocean tiles while building up pop to forge or courthouse whip doesn't hurt.

Rheims: ok to whip so long as we keep working corn+2gems.

that is the plan to keep the corn and 2 gems minimum.

We're finishing Moai in Bahamas??

We can discuss this after the next 4 turns.

 

[bcool]

1. Check dG attack units (make sure I didn't overlook anything. Actually better done at the beginning, before moving our units.)
2. Check trades/new AI techs/Espionage/etc.
3. City MM (use right arrow to cycle through quickly)
4. Check our research (always last since MM can change things, but last prolly not important for 0/100%)
5. save file

I've been doing something similar. Only way I've been able to keep track of everything is to actually check things off (tracking gold for example)

I'll add a few steps since we are at war...

 

[bcool]

I editted the PPP to reflect recent feedback that I agree with, I'm still confused/debating where to build courthouses

Also anyone think there is a risk DeG takes Kamchatka? with a galley he could take it and we wouldn't have much time to do anything about it.