I think bcool's right that it would be wise to have 2-3 cannons for attacking Hastings-York-London. I would consider upgrading 1 or 2, this turn, at Marseilles-3W. But I would use only 1 cannon on Tours, if possible, and save the other two to move the same turn as capture onward to Tours-SW, with the Nanjing maces and trebs.
Note on leaving The Kremlin unfinished: Of course, it should be finishable (post-GA) in 1 turn.
another idea, alternative to city revolting London, destroy Churchill single copper mine (I believe he only has the one metal) (would cancel his macemen builds and prevent upgrades might save fighting several units that would be left unfinished in his cities) Although it might force him to build longbow (shudder)
Actually, for osme reason I don't understand, his screen doesn't even show any possibility of switching to Pacifism. He has Philosphy, doesn't he?
another idea, alternative to city revolting London, destroy Churchill single copper mine (I believe he only has the one metal) (would cancel his macemen builds and prevent upgrades might save fighting several units that would be left unfinished in his cities) Although it might force him to build longbow (shudder)
Sine he's in Theocracy, we definitely don't want him building lbs and I was thinking we're kind of lucky he's WHEOOHRN and building attack units. Let him build cats and maces.
Edit: Looks like you're right about Pacifism--he adopted Bureau 4t ago...
As mentioned, Bureau is getting really expensive. To build 1 corporate exec per turn in Moscow without Bureau, we'll need 80base-hpt. That basically means 5 more workshops + golden age. I see that the worker is still pre-building workshops. That's good. We can also pre-build workshops on the silk tiles. All five should really be ready as soon as we're build Sushi, so we might even need another worker or two working on this.
Similarly, we also need to think about getting Ironworks done asap. Maybe Siberia should stop building the Kremlin and let Bahamas or some other city do that instead.
Why do we care if Bureau is expensive? We barely need Nationhood anymore, and certainly won't need it at all in about T+15. Not really valid to pick civics based on upkeep cost. I'm ok with staying in Nationhood until the start of the next GA, but we should def. switch then.
Why do we care if Bureau is expensive? We barely need Nationhood anymore, and certainly won't need it at all in about T+15. Not really valid to pick civics based on upkeep cost. I'm ok with staying in Nationhood until the start of the next GA, but we should def. switch then.
If the benefits of a civic are less then its costs, how can you not look at them?
As our civilization grows bureaucracy only benefits one of our cities and its costs will go up with inflation and with the number of our cities and population. If the cost difference between bureaucracy and nationhood is say 90 gold and bureaucracy gives us 30 hammers and 30 commerce, then even if nationhood contributed nothing to our empire it would still be better than bureaucracy.
Yes the commerce is multiplied by 3 for 100% science but at a cost of 90 gold that benefit we wouldn't be able to sustain. So while our max science output might be slightly higher the cost would prevent us from running 100% science for as long as we could under nationhood.
Maybe if it allows 1 executive per turn I can see a dip into bureaucracy. Maybe if we have more gold than we know what to do with we can go with bureaucracy near the end.
Still, Bureau means faster Corp spread. Then, once we're in the end game, the only thing that really matters is max research rate. Moscow can probably make up the difference by simply hammering out wealth with forge and factory with all grass workshops and extra Bureau hammers. Alternatively, it's 4 crappy new cities hammering out wealth. And if they didn't need to hammer out that extra wealth, they'd be hammering out research - which is far inferior to Bureau-Oxford commerce.
Sure, we'll obviously do calcs on it. If Bureau cost us 500-1000g more, it probably wouldn't be worthwhile...
We can finish the argument later, but 2 happiness from a barracks could easily raise the max pop in a few of our cities. It doesn't take too many science specialists * 2 (library, university, observatory, lab) to equal Moscow commerce bonus * 3.5.
1. There are two workshops in GP Farm that haven't been pre-farmed yet. They need this by the time we spread Sushi to GP Farm.
2. I think it's important that we sabotage Galley CIty's monument very soon. We would need a handful of EPs more on Gandhi and a 50% spy in Galley City to do this. This is very important for the two river tiles for GP Farm. (It's not the 1 per turn from the monument. It's the 20 per turn when Galley CIty gets to 100.) We can give Gandhi the EPs with appropriate weighting of the EPs.
1 thing to watch.
Rosey could easily wipe Mao off the map. I don't think he is smart enough to send a knight straight towards St. Nick but he could get there very fast if he does.
We can close borders with Rosey obviously but would be nice to keep them open until the turn before the war.
(actually he is running mercantilism so f him! close the borders only if you need to... since he won't talk to us afterwards I think so we wouldn't be able to trade for gold etc.)
Minor point...
Former Chinese city coming out of revolt this turn that is starving only has to run enough artists to pop the border, other citizens can work tiles or can be merchants.
I agree with LC, no bank in Moscow.
@bpp
All I could find on inflation on the forums was this
Inflation %=(Game Turn-Offset) x Difficulty Factor
Inflation cost=Other Costs x Inflation %
On Deity the Difficulty Factor is such that it reaches 100% by 2050
The Offset is ~100-150 turns
I believe this was the old formula
The inflation rate is calculated in CvPlayer::calculateInflationRate(). On a brief scan through that function, it appears to be something to the effect of:
Modified Turn = (Turn Inflation Offset)
Rate = Inflation Percent * Handicap Percent * Modifier
RP = (Modified Turn * Rate / 100) + [Modified Turn * (Modified Turn - 1)* Rate * Rate / 2000000]
Inflation Offset: Defined in the XML documents, varies with game speed.
Inflation Percent: Defined in the XML documents, varies with game speed.
Modifier: Represents any in-game modifier applied to inflation rate (such as the World Bank example I believe).
Handicap Percent: Im not exactly sure what this is Im assuming its defined somewhere in the XML documents as well.
So, for example, if we take all of the above but Inflation Offset to be 100 (no modification), at a turn of say 100, and an inflation offset of 250:
Modified Turn = 50
Rate = 100
Rate = (50 * 100 / 100) + [50 * 50 * 100 * 100 / 2000000] = 62.5
I pulled the constants out of thin air - you'd need to check the XML files for real values. Youll probably also want to pull up the CvPlayer.cpp file and check the math yourself, but thats pretty much how it works.
Former Chinese city coming out of revolt this turn that is starving only has to run enough artists to pop the border, other citizens can work tiles or can be merchants.
Yes, that was in my former PPP, but I'm going to change what I had (3 art + 3 merchants) -> 2 artists (forgot about +2 creative and +1 monument), 3 merchants and the mine.
I'm still working on my PPP. Be aware that unless I say otherwise at the beginning of my PPP, I took into account all of your comments.
I tried to upload the save again and it didn't work. I sent it in an e-mail to gotm_submit, so it should be posted soon. If not, I'll do it from work.
// Keep up to second order terms in binomial series
int iRatePercent = (iTurns * iInflationPerTurnTimes10000) / 100;
iRatePercent += (iTurns * (iTurns - 1) * iInflationPerTurnTimes10000 * iInflationPerTurnTimes10000) / 2000000;
FAssert(iRatePercent >= 0);
return iRatePercent;
}
int CvPlayer::calculateInflatedCosts() const
{
int iCosts;
Question: Should we trade Churchill Nanjing for all his gold plus Pacifism and Caste System (assuming PP and/or Education aren’t enough)? LC said he won’t do it at less than pleased, so does that mean that this option will not even be available for trade? I’m not sure if he can switch next turn, but it seems possible since his last civics switch was 4 turns ago. This will do three things. First, he’ll be in anarchy for 3 turns (assuming anarchy works the same for the AI) and won’t be able to build any units. He won’t be able to pop-rush any units for quite a while. His units won’t get 6 experience points and that second “free” promotion. We may lose some additional infrastructure and a pop in Nanjing, but it seems worth it to me if he’ll do it. If he’ll only switch one civic for Nanjing, which one should I take? Answer:It won't be possible to trade for civics changes, but we may want to use espionage to do so. This isn't in the current plan, BTW, since I'm not directing any epp toward Churchill.
Question: Does El Cid get to upgrade to a knight for no cost since he has a GG attached? Do we want him a knight since he might come up as a defender in a battle… Answer: Leave as chariot for now.
Question: Should we work some non-scientists in Moscow since this is our best shot at a non-GS/GM? Answer: Yes, but still favor GSs for OU bonus.
Question: Our next great person should be a non-GS if we want the flexibility of triggering our next GA ASAP? Doesn’t that mean we should shoot for a GM from Pigs? Answer: Next GP will come from Moscow unless I hear otherwise. This will force us to speed up Moscow and slow down Pigs.
Question: After Hammer City, which other three cities should we settle next (settlers coming from Beijing (1T), Bananas (2T), and Cuba (5T)?
On the copper south of Pigs (Beijing settler)?
3NW of Bcool Island (Bananas settler)?
4E of The Crabbes (Cuba settler)?
I can pre-build workboats at the appropriate time.
Answer: Still open between Crabbes-4E and iron-S+SW for the Cuba settler.
High-Level Goals
Civics
For ease of planning, I will assume that we switch to the following civics on the final turn of our GA.
Representation
Nationhood
Slavery
State Property
Organized Religion
I will build banks where we could use the commerce boost during the time before we’re building wealth and can only run the slider at ~50%.
Locations for Banks include (city MM has been updated to reflect these 6 cities):
Fish Siberia
GP Farm
Cuba
Bermuda
Rheims
Bahamas
For my reference (because I keep forgetting), here are the relevant hammers/pop (assumes SP and OR):
Code:
SP+OR 60.25
OR+SP+Forge 71.33
Espionage
We still need 680 epp for Corporations from Troy, which assumes that we have a stationary spy with the 50% discount. I plan to put 1 spy in Vlad and 3 spies in Troy. I will keep the slider at 0%, generating only passive espionage until one turn before we get the 50% bonus. I will then adjust the slider so that we have enough epp to steal Corporations on the next turn.
Mao
Who’s that? Sign CF this turn. We will leave Mao parked at St Nick for the next 5 turns at least.
Churchill
I will follow LCs plan as described in post #2800. This includes healing on T0, declaring on T+1, taking Tours on T+2 and continuing south down the coast. I will finish the Marseilles canal on T+1 and sail four galleys south along with the trireme from Rheims to help speed troop movement down the coast. At no point will there be units on a galley in open water unless it makes sense to take a city via a naval assault.
So here is what the galleys to the west are doing, just to make sure we’re all clear (but mainly to be sure that I’m clear). All of this assumes that we get the +1 movement bonus.
Spoiler:
Galley 2 (Combat II) – Musket from Shanghai will board galley in fort 2E of Beijing. They will look for a Churchill worker steal opportunity. Galley 5 – will be used to sail one spy all the way to Troy -> galley chain from Orleans toward Roosevelt. Galley 1 – transport one spy to Vlad -> galley chain from Orleans toward Roosevelt. Galley 7 – galley chain from Orleans toward Roosevelt. Galley 9 – First leg of the cannon galley chain and runs from Galley City-N+NW to Paris-S Galley 8 – Second leg of the cannon galley chain and runs between Paris-S and Orleans. Galley 4 – Churchill campaign. Galley 12 – Churchill campaign Galley 11 – Sail two muskets into Marseilles on T0 -> Churchill campaign. Galley 6 – Churchill campaign.
City builds and MM
I will try to get maximum hammers into the Kremlin each turn without sacrificing any critical builds. I was able to invest 388 hammers in the last 3 turns…
Spoiler:
Moscow: Builds: cannons Citizens: work scientists (or GE/GSpy?) as allowed while keeping 1 cannon/turn output Improvements: pre-WS farms (not the one irrigating the rice) and silk tiles to within 1 turn of completion, which will be finished once we have Sushi here and more food than we know what to do with… (2 workers)
Fish: Builds: grocer (to as close to 149/150 as possible) -> bank (to set up 3 pop whip with maximum overflow – 57/200) Citizens: Use all hammer tiles (including the workshop stolen by Troy), new citizens will work coastal tiles for growth/commerce. Improvements: none – May workshop over the ivory tiles in the future, but the commerce from the ivory will be nice once we have market, grocer, bank and Wall Street here.
Siberia: Builds: finish market -> Iron Works Citizens: work WSs as they become available and deer for growth if they aren’t ready yet Improvements: one tundra WSs -> scrub -> 1 worker goes to help pre-workshop Moscow (3 workers)
Pigs: Builds: grocer Citizens: Continue working 9 merchants. Improvements: none
GP Farm: Builds: barracks -> bank (to set up 3 pop whip with maximum overflow – 57/200) -> National Park. Draft a musket every turn. Citizens: keep current assignment, which lets us grow back 1 pop/turn and draft 1 musket/turn. Improvements: pre-farm last two workshops (1 worker from Marseilles Canal)
Cuba: Builds: bank (to set up 4 pop whip with maximum overflow – 19/200) -> settler Citizens: Always run one spy and add merchants at happy cap. Improvements: none
Bahamas: Builds: finish harbor -> bank (to set up 1 pop whip with maximum overflow – 199/200) -> fail gold Citizens: work 1 spy while growing to happy cap working coastal tiles Improvements: workshop fort to within 1 turn of completion -> scrub desert 1S -> scrub one-tile island north of Bermuda (1 worker)
Bermuda: Builds: intelligence agency -> bank (to set up 2 pop whip with maximum overflow – 128/200) -> fail gold Citizens: maximize growth (i.e. work all land tiles and as many coastal tiles as possible) Improvements: none
Rheims: Builds: trireme (to protect galleys) -> walls (if needed) -> caravel -> bank (to set up 3 pop whip with maximum overflow – 57/200) -> OF into wonder for fail gold Citizens: work 1 spy, grow to happy cap and then switch to hammer tiles, continue to grow as draft angry face goes away. Improvements: none for now, but will need to pre-workshop farms for when Sushi is here.
Bananas: Builds: settler -> work boat for Bcool’s island cities -> work boat for Bcool’s island cities -> wealth/fail gold Citizens: work 1 spy, grow working coastal tiles. Improvements: none
Paris: Builds: cannon -> mace -> knight Citizens: grow working coastal tiles, work mine when it’s done Improvements: mine grassland hill, plantation on incense for +1 happiness (3 workers return from Marseilles canal)
Kamchatka: Builds: theater (for culture to capture iron sooner) -> forge (for +3 happiness) Citizens: grow working coastal tiles Improvements: build road/fort on iron mine -> scrub (1 worker)
Orleans: Builds: mace -> courthouse Citizens: grow to happy cap, work all improved tiles and then hire merchants Improvements: workshop over cottage 1S, workshop plains tile NE (2 workers from Marseilles Canal)
Chengdu: Builds: courthouse Citizens: 3 artists to pop borders in 1 turn and 3 merchants, will lose 1 pop to starvation -> work 5 tiles to avoid further starvation Improvements: grassland farm, grassland farm (2 workers from Marseilles Canal)
Bcool Island: Builds: forge -> work boat Citizens: work 1 spy and highest food tiles for growth Improvements: finish scrubs, farm grassland 1S (can be workshopped later, but this city needs to grow) (2 workers)
Shanghai: Builds: courthouse Citizens: work highest food tiles for growth Improvements: Finish fort 1NW -> fort 2W to allow galleys through (3 workers)
The Crabbes: Builds: lighthouse -> courthouse Citizens: work improved tiles Improvements: chop forest -> plantation on spices -> chop lh -> scrub/workshop grassland 1W (or mine plains hill 1NE stolen from Bcool Island?)
Beijing: Builds: finish settler -> barracks -> jail Citizens: 3 spies, grow to happy cap Improvements: none
Hammer City: Builds: granary -> forge (gets Confucian missionary from Bahamas) Citizens: high-food tiles (borrow rice farm) for growth + workshops Improvements: workshops (2 workers from Marseilles Canal)
Other Turn-by-Turn Reminders
Spoiler:
T0
Sign CF with Mao.
Move musket from Shanghai to Beijing to prevent possible naval assault from Churchill.
Draft musket from GP Farm.
Upgrade 2 trebs in Marseilles-3W stack to cannons (80g each).
Check cultural discount in Troy and Vlad to see how quickly it decays
Settle Hammer City
Sell Aesthetics to Stalin for 50g
Sell map to Churchill for 105g
Settle GG in Moscow.
Move El Cid to Orleans-SW to help heal units there.
Move two “successful” spies from Moscow toward Marseilles for eventual Steam Power steal.
Move one “successful” spy from Moscow to Galley City to sabotage the monument there.
Watch for Roosy to pull an end run on St. Nick and eliminate Mao.
Pick city for Kremlin fail gold.
Adjust slider to favor science as we research toward Medicine and Sid’s
T+1
Draft musket from GP Farm
Sell our map to Roosevelt and Gandhi (if they both have gold)
Check cultural discount in Troy and Vlad to see how quickly it decays.
Pick city for Kremlin fail gold.
Adjust espionage to put some points on Gandhi to sabotage his monument. Most will still go to Roosevelt though.
Each turn thereafter
Draft musket from GP Farm
Check cultural discount in Troy and Vlad to see how quickly it decays.
Watch for Roosy to pull an end run on St. Nick and eliminate Mao.
Pick city for Kremlin fail gold.
Moscow bank: this argument really doesn't make sense to me. Once we run 100% sustainable, most cities won't need the +50% wealth. Until then, Moscow has more wealth than any city other than Pigs running merchants and maybe Fish. No? (Esp. under Bureau ) That said, I don't think it really matters. We just need 6 and I don't care where you put them, so long as that city can build it.
Don't close borders with Roos or anything. If he does move east for St Nick, let's discuss it first.
Question: Does El Cid get to upgrade to a knight for no cost since he has a GG attached? Do we want him a knight since he might come up as a defender in a battle…
yes the upgrade is free but you make a good point about coming up a defender. Maybe he is better as a chariot.
Question: Our next great person should be a non-GS if we want the flexibility of triggering our next GA ASAP? Doesn’t that mean we should shoot for a GM from Pigs?
I think Moscow should be okay. We're guessing the next GA to be ~9 turns from end of this GA. But I'm going to bed so I'm just going off what LC suggested and the sense I have that the GP from Pigs will come before that even if we delay for Moscow.
We still need 680 epp for Corporations from Troy, which assumes that we have a stationary spy with the 50% discount. I plan to put 1 spy in Vlad and 3 spies in Troy. I will keep the slider at 0%, generating only passive espionage until one turn before we get the 50% bonus. I will then adjust the slider so that we have enough epp to steal Corporations on the next turn.
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per turn for "free commerce," whatever that means?
