SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[LowtherCastle]

I propose FP in Beijing, Versailles in Bermuda, and move the capital as needed later in the game to make the maintenance costs a bit better.

Spoiler :

For my taste, Bermuda simply has way too much empty water around it. I could see GP Farm + Beijing + something else.

 

[bcool]

You are not showing the whole world though. Is the distance maintenance cost a linear function of distance or is it exponential?

found distance formula

Spoiler :

DistanceMaint = (Pop + 7) * 2.5 * Distance/DistanceScale * Building_m * WorldSize_m * Handicap_m

where

Distance = distance to closest goverment center (Palace, Forbidden Palace, Versailles)

As usual, distance is calculated by treating diagonal steps as 1.5 steps (round down the final result).

DistanceScale = (MapHeight + MapWidth) {from CvMap.cpp L925}

Height and/or Width are halved if there is wrapping in that direction.

Building_m = .5 if courthouse, 1 otherwise
Worldsize_m: Duel=.50, Tiny=.60, Small=.70, Standard=.80, Large=.90, Huge=1
Handicap_m: Settler=.45, Chieftain=.55, Warlord=.65, Noble=.75, Prince=.85, Monarch=.90, Emperor=.95, Immortal=1, Diety=1

I believe our map ~46 height and ~84/2 width

Look at the temporary coverage of Moscow, Bermuda, Beijing that is a very fine coverage of our empire.

And then you put the capital in Churchill's lands but really eventually it would be in Rosey's lands I think short term Beijing, Bermuda, Moscow and long term Beijing, Bermuda, Washington would be just as good as well.

You understand my arguments about 2 new cities near Bermuda that will not have courthouses for some time to come? We will have 4 cities on bcool's island that are quite far from GP Farm... Plus Stalin's island perhaps, another city near that oil well perhaps, Bermuda is going to the center of the island part of our empire eventually.

And building Versailles in Bermuda is a lot easier than building it in the city (GP Farm) that you want working all farms for the next 25+ turns so we can get a 50 pop city. And one that is being drained by drafting.

Looking at your map Shanghai-Bermuda-??? might be better than Beijing-Bermuda-???
but Shanghai doesn't have a forge and as much food to recover quickly.

 

[babybluepants]

Most Standard maps are 84x52.

Are Palace, Versailles and FP the same?

 

[bcool]

distance is measured to the closest of the 3 yes.

 

[Mitchum]

I just ran a quick test in WB and this is what I got. Options are:

1. Beijing and Bermuda
2. Beijing and GP Farm
3. Moscow, Beijing and Bermuda
4. Moscow, Beijing and GP Farm

The first two are to compare the longer-term benefit of the two locations and the second two are to compare the short-term benefits. I did not build any CH that are not already there, so this could sway it one way or the other. The last two rows are the numbers taken from the F2 screen.

Keep in mind that we will be settling two cities in the near future similar to The Crabbes, which favors options 1 and 3. At the same time, we will be conquering cities further south (and Tours will come out of revolt soon), which favors options 2 and 4.

 

[Mitchum]

I'd like to play my turnset tomorrow if possible. I can update my PPP based on comments in the next 10 hours, post it for two hours for additional comments, and then play.

1. I need everyone's input/vote on which five civics to switch to on this turn.
2. I need everyone's input/vote on where to put Versailles and FP.
3. I need input on war plans. Should we push harder or slow down? Should we take Marseilles now or wait? Should we open up the front on the Indian Ocean as soon as possible? Are my plans to take out the stack my Orleans okay?

If we decide to revolt to FM, then Sushi will come under my watch. Here is what I'd do if that happens:

• Research Medicine as quickly as possible (3 to 4 turns).
• Steal Corporations on the turn we see what Roosevelt is researching.
• Set slider to 0% to give us gold to spread Sushi.
• Interrupt WS build plans to build an executive for 1 turn and whip it the next.
• Spread Sushi to Moscow (I can't wait for Moscow to really grow).
• Interupt cannon builds to crank out two quick executives (3 turns?) for Siberia and GP Farm.
• Siberia can whip an executive or two with overflow into Iron Works.
• GP Farm can whip an executive every other turn and draft a musket on the alternate.

This timeline should go beyond my turnset, but this is what I'd do.

Feel free to comment on this or any thing in my plan. I'll incorporate the agreed items into my PPP. If there are still open items to discuss, I'll postpone playing until Thursday. It's important that we agree on our path forward.

 

[babybluepants]

I'd like to play my turnset tomorrow if possible. I can update my PPP based on comments in the next 10 hours, post it for two hours for additional comments, and then play.

1. I need everyone's input/vote on which five civics to switch to on this turn.
2. I need everyone's input/vote on where to put Versailles and FP.
3. I need input on war plans. Should we push harder or slow down? Should we take Marseilles now or wait? Should we open up the front on the Indian Ocean as soon as possible? Are my plans to take out the stack my Orleans okay?

• Slavery/OR - rush GA for FM (I'm ok with bcool's plan, though)
• Versailles - GP Farm; FP - Beijing (asap)
• Push south, leave Marseilles for now (maybe kill some defenders)

 

[babybluepants]

Tested the formula. Gives 75gpt for current cities (Tours included, though).

 

[bcool]

I need everyone's input/vote on which five civics to switch to on this turn.
If I had to vote now I would vote for FM, Slavery, OR, Nationhood, Rep

I need everyone's input/vote on where to put Versailles and FP.
I think FP in Shanghai is a bit better than Beijing asap (5 pop whip in 2 turns?), Versailles in Bermuda for reasons I've explained.
crud more i look maybe orleans FP with Verailles in bermuda and eventual capital in rosey land

I need input on war plans. Should we push harder or slow down? Should we take Marseilles now or wait? Should we open up the front on the Indian Ocean as soon as possible? Are my plans to take out the stack my Orleans okay?

I would move stack towards Hastings if spy just sees that mace on fort, take Marseilles with trailing cannons and trailing muskets or sooner if you are sure about the lack of fortification.

If we decide to revolt to FM, then Sushi will come under my watch. Here is what I'd do if that happens:
Research Medicine as quickly as possible (3 to 4 turns).

yes

Steal Corporations on the turn we see what Roosevelt is researching.

yes

Set slider to 0% to give us gold to spread Sushi.

I would balance a serious effort to research/steal Replaceable Parts/Steam Power/Railroad with gold to spread. Initially gold to spread might require 0% but hopefully not.

Interrupt WS build plans to build an executive for 1 turn and whip it the next.

I would interrupt WS build a turn or 2 before medicine for a courthouse build using the overflow to finish the executive the next turn. Fish needs a courthouse. LC suggested this.

Spread Sushi to Moscow (I can't wait for Moscow to really grow).

Interupt cannon builds to crank out two quick executives (3 turns?) for Siberia and GP Farm.

Yes, don't worry about gpp too much, but don't totally abandon it just in case.
Moscow also needs a courthouse. I would probably whip it, I think the rule to never whip in Moscow is no longer necessary.

Siberia can whip an executive or two with overflow into Iron Works.

yes

GP Farm can whip an executive every other turn and draft a musket on the alternate.

Might ease up on the drafting of muskets depends on war efforts, intel. But I think we want this to start to grow soonish. Before the executives maybe whip out a cannon.

 

[mdy]

I need everyone's input/vote on which five civics to switch to on this turn.

Representation - Nationhood - Slavery - Free Market - Organised religion.

I need everyone's input/vote on where to put Versailles and FP.

I'm O.K. with the Forbidden Palace in Beijing, and building Versailles in GP farm after the national park.

I need input on war plans. Should we push harder or slow down? Should we take Marseilles now or wait? Should we open up the front on the Indian Ocean as soon as possible? Are my plans to take out the stack my Orleans okay?

I think we should initially bypass it with our main stack, which we should send down to Hastings as soon as we have destroyed Churchill's stack. Marseilles is going to remain weakly defended - we can take Marseilles with a few reinforcement units later.

The plan for spreading Shushi looks good to me, provided we build a courthouse in Moscow and GP farm (I would build it before starting Versailles). This means that for now Siberia would have to continuously build executives for a while to spread Sid's.

 

[LowtherCastle]

This chart shows estimated distance costs at the city population I predict we'll be running after our cities have had Sushi long enough to grow. It only considers what we might have after conquest of Churchill. Gandhi and Roosy are not included.

Palace-Versailles-FP		mostly chs	all chs
==========================      ==========      =======
Moscow-Bermuda-Beijing		143.99		111.99
Moscow-Bermuda-Shanghai		134.1	   	103.55
Moscow-Bermuda-Orleans		144.05	   	110.05
Moscow-GP Farm-Beijing		158.74		121.79
				
Canterbury-Bermuda-Beijing	123.99		105.19
Canterbury-Bermuda-Shanghai	115.56		97.63
Hastings-GP Farm-Beijing	132.94		103.72
Canterbury-GP Farm-Beijing	129.54		103.76

I vote for Versailles in Bermuda, FP in Beijing. Shanghai is cheaper but maybe a little harder to build and slightly farther from Roosy. Furthermore, FP works with GSpy spamming in Beijing.

I also think we should garrison a spy in Beijing asap and run a counterespionage mission on Roosy as soon as we've stolen Corporation.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Since we may not begin fighting Roosy for a while and we're planning to get Sushi so soon, Which should seriously consider spreading Sushi to Roosy so he can spread it to his cities for us (before we capture them). My testing shows that corporate offices remain after capture even if all other buidings are gone.

This would argue against closing borders with Roosy to protect Mao, though. Maybe we could temporarily gift Rheims-4E or the Bcool Island crabiron city we're about to settle.

Plus, we'd have to force him out of Mercantilism with a spy.

 

[bcool]

I think Shanghai or Orleans is the way to go. Frees up Beijing to build a Jail and doesn't need as much of its population whipped (accelerating the great spy spamming faster than 1 gp from the Foreign Palace probably would at least in the short term)

Getting a Jail there is pretty big since the espionage bonus would be 225% (intel agency 50, jail 50, nationhood 25, scotland yard 100) Plus we would have the pop to run 5 spies without a 5 pop whip of the FP. I think we can get FP in Shanghai in 2 turns (do whips with Kremlin, OR give 37 hammers for wonders?) That means we would only need 16 hammers into FP to get a 5 pop whip?

Also Shanghai works a bit better if we want to move the capital to Rosey's lands.

War plans small suggestions

Mace with C1 & cover can come out of Nanjing to kill longbow SE SE of Nanjing and move to get out reach of the Churchill's mace on the fort.
Musket 2/2 N of Tours can heal this turn and fortify Nanjing if the Fort Mace goes for Nanjing. Picking up CG if necessary that turn or C1 to kill the Mace in the field.

I agree move maces/treb 2 away from that mace into city to heal.

Whip Knight in Paris? so you can more easily pillage the village N of Marseilles if you plan to capture it soon.

Musket garrisoned in Beijing? can board galley this turn in fort next to indian ocean to steal anticipated workers on sugar.

 

[bcool]

Plus, we'd have to force him out of Mercantilism with a spy.

This might be worth it even if we don't spread Sushi to him. 5 turns of Open borders with him might be a significant increase in our trade income.

 

[bcool]

LC how hard would it be to look at a Orleans FP to compare with your other maintenance calculations?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Orleans instead of Beijing?

 

[bcool]

yes indeed

 

[LowtherCastle]

Compares favorably with Beijing, not as good as Shanghai. I updated the table above.

Orleans surely is centrally located with respest to our homeland. It doesn't cover Churchill quite as well, but to be honest, a couple of Chruchill's gutter cities to the south we could just as easily use to iceball people, imo. So if we moved our capital to Roosy, that might be the best.

 

[bcool]

Thanks, LC for looking at Orleans. I thought it might be better long term when we expand into Rosey's terrain and build a capital there, but it isn't significantly better now so I think Shanghai.

I think the 1-2 turn delay that building FP in Shanghai (compared to Beijing 5 pop whip plan) is worth 8 (pre-inflation?) gold savings that we will have for 50+ turns. And the 1 gp spy point in Beijing doesn't impress me much as I explained above.

x-post with LC
I'm fine with Shanghai or Orleans.

 

[babybluepants]

Thanks for doing the calcs, LC.

The difference actually seems negligible to me. GP Farm is high initially because of huge overlap w Moscow, and I'm happy to avoid another big build there. What does Bahamas look like, compared to Bermuda?

@Mitchum,
I'm ok with going into FM, though I voted against it.