SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

The best I can do with that hint is that their culture rate increased right after an apparent whipping phase 210-220 Culture rate starting increasing 224-230

So maybe whipping buildings and using the culture rate to deal with the whipping unhappiness is the best strategy.
Whipping out factories, observatories, and Research Institutes
Whipping Research institutes has got to be one of the best strategies for us. 250 hammers for: 2 free scientists, 25% research bonus, 50% bonus on spaceship parts doesn't get too much better than that.
If we can get Superconductors in a reasonable amount of time whipping those suckers out would be really nice.

I get the feeling that he wants us to do well, regardless of whether or not we have a chance to beat them.
I think the basic idea is when they went all out with culture to maximize their growth. Basically what we were talking about anyway. But judging from the timing of it, I think they're ahead of us. All we can do is play our game and see what happens. I don't really know, but my hunch is that poprushing phase on their graph was factories. We're not that far along.

I think their earlier REX enabled them to get stone, which they used for an early Pyramids. Then they saved Liberalism for AL or something like that. We'll see.
 
Well, I simply don't buy the India first argument. Sure, we could crush Roosevelt later - that's obvious. We could probably crush a 20-city deity AI in 10t flat, let alone a gimpled Emp one. What do we gain by delaying, though, other than the extra headache at the end?

Rifling - he already has it for stealing.

Democracy - if he gift the pre-reqs, Gandhi WILL research it for us. He always does, it unlocks his fave civic. If Roosevelt can research it faster than Gandhi, that means he pretty much already is or will any moment, in which case he'll finish regardless of us DOW-ing.

What else? I don't want him researching Physics for us, as that further complicates GA planning. Maybe something like Artillery? We'll be going so fast soon enough, that anything else will be too slow to wait for a steal.

If we can attack Gandhi on T+6, than we can attack Roosevelt on T+6, and take his best cities by T+15, with fairly limited cannon buildage. Roosevelt's cities would benefit us much more than Gandhi's, IMHO. Better land, easier worker logistics, presumably more infra, and SOL applies. If we put Mining+Sushi into those cities, and assume a reasonable chunk of infra remains, we can set them up to (at the very least) run max sci in a matter of 5t out of revolt. If they could start coming out of revolt on T+25, the contribution would still be in the order of 1500-2000 base beakers per city, minus whatever extra costs (ideally covered by simply building wealth with Mining). More, if we're completely wrong about the T+45 timeline. That seems to surpass anything he could get for us.

It's also much easier to attack Gandhi later, when we have a chance to set up an Astro-era navy. I think we can crush them both with units we'll have in 10t.

The chance of a Roosevelt DOW is substantial, as well.

It seems you guys are already convinced to go Gandhi first, so I'll drop it here if that's the case. Like I said, I don't have time this weekend for the game (some kind of detailed analysis or whatever). Only enough for a quickie rant... :D
 
We have 213 WW points with Churchill and 201 with Mao. Ideally, we wouldn't overlap our wars with the two, if possible.

Perhaps the best timing for the Mao war would be after we have made peace with Churchill for the last time, just before the Gandhi war then? Given the terrain near Stalin it seems to be exceptionally unlikely that he will found another city in the next 6 turns.

Looking at the Ducks graph it looks like they have gone for a state property strategy instead of a corporation based one. There power graph also indicates that they stopped expanding before we did. We may well have repeated the mistake of the previous space race SGOTM and over expanded again. Either way it is too late to change direction now.
 
Currently Chruchill will trade us Marseilles + stuff for DoP. So it's conceivable we won't even have to capture it at all.
 
We might as well build a spy in Steam this turn, just in case we decide not to gift it to Churchill next turn, because then we can 1pop it next turn before revolting.
 
The prize with Gandhi is Delhi with 7 towns and 8 levee tiles. In order to have that prize we also need Viagra and Bombay. If we start from Newcastle we delay Delhi quite a while and Delhi will anyway require many turns to come out of resistance.

I would propose an alternative. We attack Delhi first, landing at Viagra N-NW, then moving two tiles SW. To do this, we immediately send all available galleys, cannons and muskets to Cape Copper south of Philly. Re-establish the galley chain to Chengdu or NY or whatever works for additional cannons. DoW Gandhi asap. (I haven't studied the details.)

To free up our muskets/cannons, abandon plans to capture Marseilles. We don't need it. After we capture all of Churchill's other cities, if he gives us Marseilles for DoP, fine. If not, big deal, it's already scrubbed. Or units returning from the CHurchill campaign by railroad can stop off and capture Marseilles.

The other mini-prizes with Gandhi are Madras, Calcutta, and Bangalore. So a galley each for Madras, from Newcaslte, and Calcutta from Warwick could transport two units at a time. First cannons, I suppose. Three-pronged to grab the best turf at the beginning.
 
Be careful not to use our GE when you trigger the Golden Age. I'm sure you knew this already. A simple test game will show you how to do it safely.
 
Don't worry I definitely won't use the GE for the golden age.

The main reason I prefer attacking Gandhi is that Rooservelt will tech several more useful techs for us to steal, Gandhi won't.

I would propose an alternative. We attack Delhi first, landing at Viagra N-NW, then moving two tiles SW. To do this, we immediately send all available galleys, cannons and muskets to Cape Copper south of Philly. Re-establish the galley chain to Chengdu or NY or whatever works for additional cannons. DoW Gandhi asap. (I haven't studied the details.)

I like this idea. Maybe we could try the following:

All available galleys with the exception of one near Paris, the one SE of Moscow, and the one amongst the islands which are need to transport settlers/executives are sent to Xian. This should give us 9 galleys there on T+7 allowing us to land 18 units at Viagra N NW on T+9. The trieme and Shaghai caravel are sent to Guangzhou for upgrading to frigates. Depending on Gandis unit situation we may be able to launch a 2 prong attack on Viagra/Delhi. Under this plan the Gandhi war would start 2T later than the souther attack plan due to the logistics issues.

A second stack can then be loaded around T+10 to open another front.

Abort the Marseilles attack. Leave a couple of muskets in that area just in case Churchill sends out a couple of pillagers. Get it from Churchill in a peace treaty if possible, otherwise leave it in his hands. The rest of the units are sent onto Xian-arrive between T+6 and T+7.

The 4 cannons and in the Canterbury-Newcastle area are sent north on the western peninsular on T+1/T+2. The Nonsiege units in the Newcastle area will also be sent north. The 2 galleys NE of Oxford then transport them to Xian. Start arriving Arriving around T+5. Depending on the status of our units after taking Canterbury I would also send some of these units up via the eastern route.


I'm thinking of abandoning the caravel build in Rheims so we would have 2 frigates to protect the galleys.

AS we land on the same turn that we declare war there is no chance of losing units on board the galleys. The galleys will then transport more muskets to Gandhi's north on the return trip.

The other units in Churchill land finish off the other 2 of his cities in the south and then head north.

To help with logistics the workers in this area will build a railroad link as a top priority once we have researched railroad.

This would also mean that we had a sizeable stack in the America area if we decided we need to abort the Gandhi war to attack him instead.

The China war would probably start on T+6 with this plan (the same turn the Churchill war ends), so the spies would go into St Nick on T+1.

As this is a rather big change to the previous plan I posted I will delay playing till the afternoon to give people a chance to comment.

EDIT: Perhaps we could whip additional galleys in Gunagzhou/Beijing/Hastings. This would give us enough galleys to attack on both the north and south front simultaneoulsy. Under this scenario the London stack would move to Newcastle, as would the Canterbury stack (with the exception of the 2 cannons)

EDIT2: Another alternative would be to upgrade some of our galleys to galleon which would ease our logistics issues, but at 110 gold a time this is not particularly cheap.

EDIT3: Upgrading trebuchets is cheaper than building cannons. Perhaps it would be more efficient to build wealth in London and use the gold to upgrade our trebuchets? We could also build a grocer here to help with health.
 
Excellent point on havig units for Roosy, just in case.

I'm not sure we need 16 units for Delhi, but since we have no data on his cities, maybe we should send some sort of a scout over there with the closest galley. I would definitely plan for a 2- or 3-pronged attack, even if it requires building another galley or two.

Moscow Bureau cannons cost 100h/2.75h/h= 37h + 9XP
Moscow build wealth = 37h * 1.75g/h = 64.75g - 80g = -15.25g - ?XP

I think we can upgrade el Cid to knight and start gathering XP for the +1 movement or whatever. But more important, to possibly use for stealing a few workers in the Nottingham area.

I think we should upgrade as minimally as possible. I think research at this point is more important than ultra fast war campaigns. We always want our campaigns fast, but with a solid research balance.

I also don't like the idea of putting EPs into Astro. This Astro is turning out to be almost more expensive than all the coins we gained from the Colossus. I'd rather start putting them into Roosy and find out what he's researching asap. I'm not convinced that we have some surplus of EPs yet. Not even close. In fact, if Astro is a prerequisite to attacking Gandhi, I'd almost rather steal Mil Sci and build grens for Roosy. Do you think Roosy's going to research AL before Astro, Democracy, or CHemistry?

Btw, you'll need to move the spies in on T+0 for T+6 50% stationary. It's movement plus 5t = 6t total.
 
I agree that 16 more units is more than we should need for Delhi, which is why I suggested we split the stack in two. We don't have enough galleys to launch a completely different second front unless we build a few more (my preferred option).

By my estimation in a golden age Moscow can produce 119 wealth in a GA with CS, though we would probably convert some of the mines to scientists. It looks like that we probably have enough units for the galley war with the exception of a few naval units and I am reluctant to build units we probably won't need. As the existing cannons are adequate for the opening phases of the war, we could just attack with our current siege and upgrade any trebs later as needed. I agree with upgrading the medic.

We already have a lot of beakers invested in Astronomy so we could finish it in one turn after steam power if we need to. This would still be in time for the Gandhi war, and solve our problem with Rooservelt.

The problem with building grenadiers for a Rooservelt campaign is that every grenadier we build is 63g we don't have to support our economy. It seems absurd to build a lot of units when we can fight the Gandhi war with the ones we have already got.
 
Just a few ideas to consider

Flipping Gandhi to Confu would give a net +4 to our relations
We are at -3 visible, so the flip would put us +1 visible
Would this let us trade for Astro? Probably not but I put the idea out there just in case I'm wrong.

Flipping Roosy to Confu would also be wise I think if we go after Gandhi first, just to make it less likely he declares on us.
 
We need eyes on Roosy and at least some espionage on Gandhi and espionage for Military Science steal, could we go 100% espionage on this last turn of Nationhood? I think with the GA we would have enough to get eyes on Roosy's research. Maybe have a little bit left to split to Gandhi (to switch him to confu) or put a little into Stalin as well.
 
When the time comes for Rosey, we could consider drafting Infantry men instead of upgrading mace to grenadiers or building grenadiers ourselves.

In fact isn't AL close enough that we can forget about stealing Military science completely?
 
Ok putting my ideas together.

1 turn 100% espionage, gives us enough espionage to see Roosy's research, and to steal riflery ~5 turns from now when we have a 50% stationary discount.

After RR we research AL and draft Infantry if Roosy declares on us (saves the gold of upgrading our existing units or building grenadiers, and saves the espionage we might invest in stealing Military Science which really is unnecessary)

Avoids WW from another Mao war.

Edit: I like Gandhi first, since if he gets Chemistry that would make a naval landing very very hard/expensive.
 
If we flip both Gandhi and Roosy to confu they might be friendly with each other and then Gandhi might trade Astro to Roosey and then would be willing to trade it to us?
 
If we flip both Gandhi and Roosy to confu they might be friendly with each other and then Gandhi might trade Astro to Roosey and then would be willing to trade it to us?

Gandhi won't trade astronomy whilst it is a monopoly tech. If we put all espionage on Rooservelt immediately we can see his research by T+5. We would then have the option of flipping his religion/stealing rifling or another tech.

Military Science is a tech we have absolutely no need for. We can easily go the entire game without it. Under the circumstances we could just leave China in St Nick?

Espionage on Gandhi would be nice, but unless we steal a tech from him I don't think it can be justified.
 
Gandhi won't be Friendly with Roosy if they're both in COnfu. He'd start at +7 hidden and needs +10.

If everything else stays the same, Roosy would be Pleased with us after 10t of Confu. But Mao is still his WE so we might go from -2 to worse after gifting Mao Bing-Mao. Since we're planning to gift Bing-Mao shortly, we'll know the answer to that and can think about switching him.

We don't want to draft any more units till we've finished researching. Our only way to win fast is by growing fast and maximally. We also don't want to upgrade more than necessary because this also goes against our research. I guess the conclusion is that we should go down on Gandhi next.

By the way, if we get Mil Sci, then our next GG can build a military academy in Moscow for +50% mil unit production. Making units cheaper means more hammers converted to gold in teh process.
 
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