SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

War preparation looks fine. I don't have access to the game right now,
so some of my comments need to be confirmed.

In general, I'm opposed to using the espionage slider unless we
absolutely have to because we're generating a decent amount passively
and using the slider takes away gold.

In your plan to steal Astronomy, I don't think we get to Physics any
sooner because the gold used to up the espionage slider to 20% could
be saved and then used to up the science slider by that same 20%. If
we leave the espionage slider at 0%, I assume we'll have enough epp to
steal it on T+3, right? Or is it T+4?

I’m only using it because it shaves 1 turn off of DoW date (getting
astronomy is important for the effort against Gandhi). It is just
10-20% slider. Worth 200-300 science/gold to start the war 1 turn
earlier I think.

We also have to agree on what is more important: saving the GE for a
future Golden Age or getting Assembly Line sooner. If we're pretty
sure we can get enough mongrels for the later GAs, then AL is the
priority and we should keep our epp on Roosevelt until we can see his
research and just wait until we can get Astronomy in trade and win the
GS race later. If we're unsure about getting mongrels or would simply
prefer the freedom of switching some of our mongrel cities to
scientists/merchants, then we should try to save our GE for later.

Astronomy means we can have frigates for protection (minimal even with
frigates) Without Astronomy I think the war with Gandhi needs to be
delayed for IronClads (at least 3 turn delay maybe 4 if want both
fleet to attack same turn)

I'm uncertain which is better but I'm leaning toward researching AL
and keeping 0% passive epp on Roosevelt for now (or switching passive
epp to Gandhi if Astronomy is critical to our war plans).

We also have to figure out what losing the Bureaucracy bonus in Moscow
does to our research rate because we'll be hiring fewer scientists and
getting less base commerce...

Bureaucracy costs 95 gold post inflation (up to 42% now)
Gains 33 commerce and ~38 hammers
With 100% science it is a net gain 99 science and 38 hammers > 95 gold
With 100% wealth it is a net loser 16 wealth and 38 hammers < 95 gold

I think for the next 5 turns we are not going 100% science all the
time so Nationhood wins I think.
 
Updated PPP

Research/Espionage
T+0 0% research AL 0% espionage //// switch espionage to Gandhi
T+1 0% research AL 10-20% espionage just enough to steal Astronomy
T+2 0% research into Physics //// steal Astronomy //// switch espionage to Roosy
T+3 100%/0% research into Physics (what we can afford) /// steal Riflery after can see his research
T+4-T+7 100%/0% research into Physics (what we can afford) (Goal to finish Physics T+6)

Civic changes T+1 switch to Nationhood

AI interactions
Trade for Stalin's Fish once get Astronomy
renewing trades for Roosy fish/clam turn plan to spread sushi to him

Tentative plan for next 6 turns (stopping turn before this GA ends)
City builds
Spoiler :
Moscow
confu missionary(backup for london or bahamas), Wealth, Mining Inc exec(gp farm), Mining exec(Bermuda), Observatory/Mining exec
T+0 railroad 1NE (so executive from siberia can make it in 1 turn)

Fish
Mining exec, Mining exec if can finish ~5 turns without sacrificing gpp production, if can't worker while near starving

Siberia
levee, mining inc (to Moscow), mining inc (paris?), mining Inc (Kamchatka), mining Inc, mining exec, mining exec
T+0 railroad SE
T+1 railroad SSE
(so Mining inc can make it to moscow in 1 turn)

Pigs Harbor

GP Farm
Intel Agency (interrupt), Mining exec, mining exec?, Intel Agency, Jail

Cuba
Grocer

Bahamas
Taoist temple, Sushi Exec (Hastings), mining exec (bcool island)

Bermuda
Grocer, Observatory, Market (interupt for mining exec) (interupt for settler when workboat lined up)
want this city to grow as big as possible for trade route income

Rheims
Sushi Exec(Tours), Sushi Exec (Shanghai), Univ Mining Exec?

Bananas, WB (fish south of new copper city), WB (interupt for Galleon), Galleon, WB (fish near Bermuda 4E planned city)

Paris Buddist Temple, Library, Jail, Intel Agency (perhaps mining Inc)

Kamchatka, Jail interrupt for mining exec, mining exec

Orleans, Univ, (Sushi exec when spread here)

Chengdu Univ

BCool Island
Harbor, Sushi Exec (for Iron Spice)

Shanghai, Grocer MM to 2 turns, Harbor
Crabbes Univ

Beijing
T+0 MM to get trireme to 49/50
T+1 MM to max hammers into WB build (WB to clam near Oxford)
T+2 finish Trireme (will change to Frigate -- confirmation needed on this) (assumes steal of Astronomy on T+2)

Guangzhou Trireme (will change to Frigate before finishing)

Nanjing Forge

Hammer Levee, Sushi exec (English/China cities)

Tours Granary, Library, Forge

Haiti, Library, Lighthouse

Hastings caravel, WB(fish near Mitchum's oasis), WB (fish near Mitchum's oasis)

Nottingham Court

NewC Court

IronSpice, granary, Court

Mitchum's Oasis Granary, Court

London Library, lighthouse

Canterbury Court

Warwick Court

Steam Court

Rostov Court


Gandhi war plan
see this post http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10037954&postcount=3599

Plus perhaps drafting a rifle to send with the troops if possible.

Worker priorities
1) focus on building railroads to speed up spread of Mining Inc and military units if necessary
2) Clear resources for mining Inc
3) Build workshops for new cities building courthouses (and resource tile improvements)
4) railroad mines for extra production.

existing Sushi executives
1 for Roosy from galley N of Paris(railroad this guy towards Roosy)
1 for Beijing from galley N or Paris (railroad shared with Roosy railroad)
1 for London (from Hill near Marseilles)
1 for Tours this turn (from Rheims to get 2nd coal earlier from sushi culture bonus)
1 for The Crabbes (on galley N of Haiti)
 
Can't keep up with you guys... ;)

I haven't managed to examine the save in detail, but the Gandhi landing seems like you're planning to attack VIagra then Delhi, is that correct? That would delay the date Delhi comes out of resistance, right?

In any case, is there some reason to not land at Viagra-NW? PUt us 1t closer to Delhi and still can attack VIagra first, if you prefer.
 
In any case, is there some reason to not land at Viagra-NW? PUt us 1t closer to Delhi and still can attack VIagra first, ir you prefer.

I didn't look at it closely enough. No reason not to land Viagra-NW.

Was the original plan to attack Delhi first? Capturing Viagra with reinforcements?

So I'm considering sending eyes to Gandhi on T+2 and switching the war plan to use ironclads if necessary. Delays the assault on Gandhi for 2-3 turns, saves us the commerce from Colossus for a bit longer (I think it is up to 50 per turn), Saves us from using the espionage slider, delays Observatories (but they were hard to fit in right away anyways in a lot of places)
Lose out on trade routes to Stalin and trading for his fish too.

I don't know what is best
Gets us factories sooner
Probably allows us to trade for Astronomy or at least steal it with passive espionage bonuses

Plan B
Research/Espionage
T+0 0% research AL 0% espionage //// keep espionage on Roosy
T+1 0% research AL 0% espionage on Roosy
T+2 100%/0% research AL (what we can afford) //// Can see Roosy research consider stealing Riflery //// switch espionage to Gandhi
T+3 100%/0% research AL (what we can afford) /// Riflery Steal considered
T+4 100%/0% research AL (what we can afford) /// Riflery Steal considered /// split espionage Gandhi/Roosy enable Astronomy steal and give other espionage options vs Roosy (counter espionage, flipping civics, etc)
T+5
T+6
T+7 100%/0% research into AL (what we can afford)
Plan to burn GE in 3 person GA

Civic changes T+1 switch to Nationhood

AI interactions
Trade for Stalin's Fish once get Astronomy (later probably than before)
renewing trades for Roosy fish/clam turn plan to spread sushi to him

Tentative plan for next 6 turns (stopping turn before this GA ends)

Significant build changes would be
Beijing stretches to build an IronClad in 3 turns (means running only 1 spy for 2 turns and then 2 spies 3rd turn, (maybe more if I can get Sushi here))

Workers committed to building 2 workshops so Hastings can finish Ironclad in 2 turns.

I'm working on a map for the Ironclad protected landings on Gandhi, get a better idea of how much a delay it would cause.

So the ironclad protection plan :)

T+1 Trireme located at NewCastle goes to scout Gandhi's lands to see how many caravel/galleons, etc are about. To assess if the 7 galley fleet could land troops and retreat to the safety of an ironclad coming from Beijing.

T+2 Galley drops knight off in Gandhi's lands to assess the level of defense Gandhi has

T+5 If threat is low from Gandhi navy, 7 galley fleet lands troops protected only by trireme, with plan to flee to safety of Ironclad on T+5

T+5 5 galley fleet could still land troops near Agra protected by Ironclad built in Hastings.

If threat from Gandhi's navy is high delay 7 galley assault for T+7.

Grey T+1
White T+2
Black T+3
Red T+4
Orange T+5
Yellow T+6
Green T+7

Sorry error on picture near 5 galley fleet, textbox suggest T+4 attack, but really only could land T+5 protected by Ironclad from Hastings.
 

Attachments

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Can't keep up with you guys...

I can slow down.

I took a closer look at the Ironclad option and by so doing realized it doesn't have to slow down the gandhi assault significantly. So researching AL, burning the engineer in the 3 person GA, and trading for/ stealing Astronomy is now the best option.

And using Ironclads is cool :D (who would've thunk that they would help us, the poor neglected unit)

would like to play in a few hours if everyone is okay with Plan B (with basically the original plan to research Assembly Line next, burning GE in 3 person GA, trading for or stealing with passive espionage Astro, using Ironclads for fleet protection on Gandhi assault)
 
I prefer going for AL and burning the GE. We might regret it if we can't fire off the 4GP later... Oh, well.

Nationhood switch seems fine, as we're losing a lot of cash in Bureau. I wonder if we might wanna try just saving cash for 5t in Nat, then switching back?

When do we start hammering wealth? I suppose universities will still pay off, but some things (like temples, jails...) are maybe more questionable.

Gandhi war: landing Viagra-NW sounds right. We really need some eyes in India, though. No idea what to expect as he's been in war mode for some time.

I didn't notice that Stalin's in WHEOOHRN 'till now? When did that happen? What on Earth is he planning to do? :lol:
 
The temples and jails are for specialists, they won't pay off themselves but will make the GAs possible. That makes them worth it in my opinion.
 
1. Can someone briefly compare using and not using the GE in the 3-GP GA? EDIT: I mean compare the scenarios allwoing us to not have to use the GE...
2. On hammering wealth: The sooner the better, perhaps. I think our focus now should be massive growth of our cities, in preparation for hammering wealth. Hammering wealth is obviously better after factories.
 
The only scenario that I can come up with that doesn't use the GE for the 3-GP GA is stealing Astronomy and teching Physics before the end of this GA. There isn't any city we can starve that can beat the Pigs/Fish plan for the next 2 GP

So what we have been comparing is the choice (1st PPP or details described for Plan B)

Astro-Physics tech (might speed up conquest of Gandhi 1-2 turns)
or
AL tech path with plan to steal Astro with passive espionage or trade for it
 
Yeah, I don't think we can possibly get the 1800 GP in 7t. Another scenario, ofc, would be to delay the next GA. Maybe to coincide with a Slavery dip for factories, starting in T+6? How long would it take to get a 1800 GS from somewhere? (Not recommending it, just throwing down an option)
 
Okay. And we have about 2t of natural EPs till we see Roosy's research? Could we go 0% research on AL till we find that out before committing ourselves?
 
Well passive espionage on Roosy would make stealing Astro from Gandhi in a timely manner difficult. I would suspect if the goal was to save the GE then we would need to use the espionage slider so that we had time to tech Physics before the end of the GA.

Rheims is the best bet if we want to plan a gap. Rheims probably could do it in 9 or 10 turns with a loss of about 3 population.

If we plan a dip into slavery in the gap, our plans for a 4 person GA would be in serious jeopardy. I think we are going to have to wait for the Redeemer for slavery again.
 
or a different way of asking it:

How much does seeing Roosy's research later cost us, depending on what he's reseraching?
 
To produce enough espionage to steal astronomy in 1 turn without putting any passive espionage towards Gandhi would require the slider to be at about 40% which would cost 400-500 gold.

I think it would be better to commit to AL or commit to producing the GS from Physics this turn.

I like my plan to focus on AL and burn the GE. I worked out a plan for the gpp that has very good odds even without saving the GE.
 
We can probably switch espionage to Gandhi this turn.
Risk: If we do that we might waste that espionage if we end up trading for Astro after all.
Also delays seeing Roosy research (not a huge deal in my opinion)
I don't think Roosy is going to tech AL for us in a timely manner if he is researching that. If he is teching Astronomy we will know soon anyways.

If we leave espionage on Roosy then we lose the flexibility of stealing Astronomy with passive research and gunning for Physics without some investment of the espionage slider.

Conclusion probably can switch espionage to Gandhi to leave the physics tech path open.

I still think teching AL is the better path however and burning the GE.
 
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