SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[LowtherCastle]

I'll try to post mine tomorrow if you need them. But aren't the demo screenshots enough for what you're trying to do?

Nope. That's just the point. When we adjust our amounts in the city screen it changes on the other screen. That allows us to pinpoint numbers.

We've been doing it for GNP already, but it's also useful for hammers and food. When there's a corresponding change in ranking we know we just passed an AI, but we don't necessarily know which, of course. We need to correlate other indicators for that.

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Guys, this doesn't change my turnset. Respond to my PPPs and I'll play. Should we go for Sailing after Phood or not? Or should we stop at Phood and re-evaluate. I'll almost certain that no AI has Phood yet. Once one gets it, we're in the race of our lifetime.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I can't find any variation up to T52 Phood, so I'm going to play to that point.

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I gave up on tabulating all the demo data from the saves. Took forever. Sorry to make you guys waste time uploading the saves.

 

[bcool]

I think we should stop at Phood and re-evaluate, but that seems like the plan anyways

 

[bcool]

I think it makes sense to start Math after priesthood, switch to sailing so that it finishes the same turn we need it to build a lighthouse in fish city, then finish Math.

It just gives us a few more turns to watch the AI before we decide to delay the Oracle.

 

[babybluepants]

Play to PH, or to the last point where we would need to switch to Sailing. I'm not sure yet...

 

[babybluepants]

I gave up on tabulating all the demo data from the saves. Took forever. Sorry to make you guys waste time uploading the saves.

I liked your optimism.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Turnset T48-T52

Turn 48, 2080 BC hit <enter>

Turn 49, 2040 BC
Meditation done, no one has Priesthood.
Southern warrior spots fish+ivory for a Fish-Pigs-Rice-Ivory river/coastal city (and two forests, miraculously--Erkon must have overlooked them )!

deGaulle +15 (land from earlier cultural exapnsion?)
Roosy +6 BW, adopts slavery
Gandhi +6, settles Bombay, enculturates 6 new land tiles.

Turn 50, 2000 BC
Settle Fish

Stalin +6 (?)
CHurchill +12 (1pop+?)

Mass cultural border expansion in faraway lands. Looks like Gandhi now has 32 land tiles total, and guess what? Stalin got a whole nother tile. Is he on an island or not?

Turn 51, 1960 BC
We're the least wealthy nation.
Southern warrior spots bananas on the eastern promontory and what looks like an island or another landmass to the SE.
Norhtern warrior spies fur.

OSS +6
Mao +6

Turn 52, 1920 BC
Priesthood done, still no one has it.
Two more furs up in the far, far NW.

All AIs except Stalin still threatening us with archers.
Mao -11 (2poprush)
Stalin +6

Looks like we may need two more explorers, one for SW and one for N, because the SE may keep going S and the NW is taking forever.

By the way: the northern ice does NOT have fallout!!!!!!! Evidently, Erkon is quite as sadistic as we all thought.

More analysis to come.

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Here is your Session Turn Log from 2080 BC to 1920 BC:

Spoiler :

Turn 48, 2080 BC: You have discovered Meditation!

Turn 49, 2040 BC: Roosevelt adopts Slavery!

Turn 50, 2000 BC: Fish has been founded.

Turn 51, 1960 BC: Fish has become unhealthy.
Turn 51, 1960 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!

 

[LowtherCastle]

Good idea on Math(partial)-Sailing-Math, bcool!

I won't play that immediately, though, because I'm still working out the worker actions a bit. I think it's better to mine gold, road horses and then have all three workers over at Fish, for two reasons: let FIsh develop as fast and healthily as possible if we really decide to go for GLH and scrub for the galley city, wherever it will be. Wkr4+5 can handle the rice, I think. Thoughts anyone?

 

[babybluepants]

I think it's better to mine gold, road horses and then have all three workers over at Fish

Yes.

Turn 49, 2040 BC
deGaulle +15 (land from earlier cultural exapnsion?)

Border expansion on T29, so yes.

Having a look at the save...

 

[Mitchum]

Good idea on Math(partial)-Sailing-Math, bcool!

I won't play that immediately, though, because I'm still working out the worker actions a bit. I think it's better to mine gold, road horses and then have all three workers over at Fish, for two reasons: let FIsh develop as fast and healthily as possible if we really decide to go for GLH and scrub for the galley city, wherever it will be. Wkr4+5 can handle the rice, I think. Thoughts anyone?

I agree on the tech path and having all three workers at Fish. If the GLH is a possibility, I'd like to keep that option open and give ourselves the best shot at getting it.

Now that we have PH, how can we tell when another AI learns it? Should we put a turns worth of hammers into the Oracle right away to prevent the AI from going for it? I recall reading Kossin and Duckweed saying that the AI cheats by knowing that a wonder has been started and doesn't go for it themselves... not sure if it's true though.

 

[babybluepants]

Have you tried offering Gandhi Medi+AH? Not gonna work, but just in case...

 

[bcool]

We are really close to being able to finish the 4th worker during the delay imposed by sailing and still finish the Oracle with Math. I think if we mine the plains hill 1S of Moscow we could do it.

I'll test it soon.

 

[LowtherCastle]

@Mitch: We monitor Phood by keeping a running record of when CHurchill and deGaulle finish techs and how long it takes to research the next. Phood will take them just a few turns.

We'll be putting hammers into Oracle till pop5. Sure would be nice to know if that Wonder rumor is true or folklore. If true, we could just go for CS. Any team going for CS has a huge advantage on this map.

@bbp: Tried getting peace a couple of times.

@bcool: Having wkr4 1t from finished before switching to the Oracle is very annoying. Go for it!

Let me konw if I sonmehow uploaded the wrong test save:

 

[bcool]

Okay so I can build the 4th worker before switching back to the oracle if we mine the plains hills 1S of Moscow. See attached test save. (I'm a little concerned a few more AI in the test game that I used know sailing)

Slows the grow of Fish City down slightly since it requires Moscow to work the plains hill mine instead of the river gold (so Fish City works the gold mine instead of the cows). Also Fish city is unhealthy longer since it only has 2 workers helping it grow. However we get the 4th worker ~3 turns earlier.

 

[babybluepants]

Don't think I have any time to test play today, unfortunately. bcool's looks great to me - I agree with teching Sailing and building a fourth worker. I think you can play further whenever you feel comfortable with a plan, LC.

We still need to figure out where to settle next, so we should stop at a point where we'd need to commit to clearing a future site.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay so I can build the 4th worker before switching back to the oracle if we mine the plains hills 1S of Moscow. See attached test save. (I'm a little concerned a few more AI in the test game that I used know sailing)

Slows the grow of Fish City down slightly since it requires Moscow to work the plains hill mine instead of the river gold (so Fish City works the gold mine instead of the cows). Also Fish city is unhealthy longer since it only has 2 workers helping it grow. However we get the 4th worker ~3 turns earlier.

Down the road, I like having that mine. Frees Fish up to work the gold, freeing up the ivory to be worked by Galley City (if it overlaps with the ivory). It also gets an extra hammer on the settler 50% bonus. If the FIsh Cow wkr scrubs another tile before milking the cows, then the unhealth work better and cows can still be done on time. The settler can work out pretty well too.

Another option would be to just delay the Oracle a turn, if we see that we can at that point.

A third option is to skip the horses for now and build the mine. Buys an extra couple turns at Fish and probably works out just fine.

Not sure what's best.

 

[bcool]

In the test I skipped (edit: the road to) the horses until after the (edit: the plains hill 1S) mine was built. There is a decent chance that there is copper or iron on that hill too. I think the mine gives us some insurance if we need it.

I also worked the fish 2 turns and the cows 3 turns in the test to get fish city to grow in time for the gold mine and get hammers for the lighthouse (but with your plan to scrub tiles and presumably work the fish that isn't as important). I wanted to work the cows so we get as many hammers as possible.

 

[Mitchum]

We'll be putting hammers into Oracle till pop5. Sure would be nice to know if that Wonder rumor is true or folklore. If true, we could just go for CS. Any team going for CS has a huge advantage on this map.

Can someone run a quick test? If not, I'll try it on Monday. Watch in the test game for another AI to start the Oracle. Go back a turn or two before then and start the Oracle in Moscow to see if said AI still starts the Oracle on the same turn. If so, go back in time to when no AI even knows PH and start the Oracle. See if the AI still researches PH and starts the Oracle. If just by starting the Oracle the AI behaviour changes, then there is some truth to the rumor.

I've seen an AI abandon researching a religious-founding tech as soon as another AI researches it first, even if they are only a turn or two from finishing it themselves. Obviously, the AI knows that it lost the race in that case, so it stops researching the tech. The question is, does the AI "cheat" when it comes to starting wonders. A few of the Ducks think so... I was looking for the thread but couldn't find it. It was one of the Deity succession/cookbook games in the Strategy & Tips section IIRC.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Good point on working the cows for more hammers. Okay, I think I know what I want to do with the worker turns. I'll play on, keeping an eye on Phood.

dG finished a tech T48
Churchill on T50

Need to keep an eye on them.

xpost: Yes, it would be great if someone tested that. I don't think it affects my turnset though. Another interesting test would be to start the ORacle before any AI had Phood, then leave it undone and see how long before an AI takes it up, if ever.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Turnset T52-T53

Turn 52, 1920 BC
Research: Math

Turn 53, 1880 BC
Warrior finds marble in the far NW corner of the map.

Trouble. dG finishes a tech. Took him only five turns. He's building something now at 15hpt and has 87hammers in it. Not sure what that would be. Either a settler or a wonder, but the settler would be done and so would Stonehenge, I think. Weird.

ANyway, I uploaded. We need to carefully examine this. Did he really complete PH? Will he try building the Oracle if we've started? Should we crank out a chariot and threaten his city to get him to build units?