SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[babybluepants]

Yes Now I think it's:
T0-T19 2cpt 1t revolt (Nationhood); 18t @ 2cpt = 36c
T19-T55 7cpt 2t revolt (Buddhism & Slavery); 34t @ 7cpt = 238c (274c total)
T55-T70 16cpt no revolt; 15t @ 16cpt = 240c (514c total)

Edit: Made more mistakes, but edited them out now...

We need to decide now if we want to settle that city. We'd probably need a settler before another worker, tight worker actions around there and the maintenance will slow down our CS sling.

 

[mdy]

I'd be inclined to skip that city until we can capture De Gaulle's capital. French cultural pressure will continue to cripple it until then. We can build an alternative city in the north to build galleys.

 

[babybluepants]

Cripple it how? Rice will be available, as well as ivory and a few hills.

Where would you build the city in the north?

 

[LowtherCastle]

EDIT: Okay, this works now. Rostov settled T68, Oracle T75.

I've managed to get CS by 1000BC, building Oracle(partial to 3t)-settler(settles 2SW1S on T68)-wkr-Oracle.

T57
worker on cows scrubs
worker at ivory-S roads
worker in forest roads
research slider to 0% (+26gold)

T58
worker on cows pastures
research slider stays at 0% (+26gold)

T59
Fish (Novgorod) builds workboat, starts library
worker at ivory-S moves 1S
worker in forest moves SW to forest (he's roading to the Southern Pigs, by God!)
Research slider to 50% (+12 gold to have a total of 64 gold in the treasury)

T60
Fish (Novgorod) works fish.
Moscow (St Pete) grows to size 5, works 2 gold, 2 cows, and scientist (1t only).
Moscow (St Pete) continues to build the Oracle for 1 more turn.
worker in forest roads
worker on hill 1S of ivory-S roads
Research slider to 100% until Oracle

T61
Moscow (St Pete) starts building settler, cancels Oracle build for now.
Moscow (St Pete) switches scientist back to horses. Settler in 5t.

T62
Fish (Novogorod) switches from fish to cows (pop2 in 3t)
worker on hill moves SW to new city site (Fish-2SW1S)
worker on cows takes road to ivory-S and scrubs
worker in forest moves 1W

T63
worker 1W of forest roads
worker at Fish-2SW1S scrubs

T64
--

T65
Math done, CoL next
Fish (Novgorod) is pop2, works cows + fish
worker 1W of forest moves SW to western rice

T66
Moscow (St Pete) completes settler, starts worker(4t)
settler moves toward Fish-2SW1S site(2t)
worker on western rice roads

T67
--

T68
Rostov is settled at Fish-2SW1S, works coastal tile for 2g, builds (rax?)
Moscow (St Pete) switches horses to scientist, worker(2t)
worker on western rice moves SW to plains hill
worker at ivory-S moves 1S and scrubs

T69
Fish (Novgorod) is pop3, works cows + fish + gold
Moscow (St Pete) works 2 cows, gold, 2 sci
worker on plains hill roads
worker in Rostov moves NE to plains hill and scrubs

T70
Moscow (St Pete) completes worker, which roads horses
Moscow starts building Oracle (5t)

T71
worker at Rostov-2S moves 1SW to grass hill
worker at Rostov-1NE moves to Rostov-2S and scrubs

T72
Fish (Novgorod) completes library, switches from cows to scientist
worker on grass hill roads
worker on horses moves to Moscow 1E
worker at Rostov-1NE camps ivory

T73
--

T74
worker south of Rostov moves 1S to sugar

T75
1000B.C. discover code of laws, Oracle CS

-------------

Oops. xpost with all your posts, guys...

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'm always slightly confused by AI turns. The log says that wonders complete one turn, but we get an in-game notice the next. T19 is log-time for Buddhism, and T55 for SH (not 56).

I wasn't just confused, but also ignorant. So I tested it... The turn he completes it, he gets the culture added. That means, the turn we see the announcement that it's been completed, he already got the culture. So by my corrected calcs, I now make it at T69. Meaning we need to settle it T68. Back to the drawing board...

              total  turn#     #ofturns    culture
              -----  -------   --------    -------
palace  2cpt   2cpt  T00-T02       2            4
revolt  0cpt         T03           1            0
palace  2cpt   2cpt  T04-T18      15           30
revolt  0cpt         T19           1            0
buddhi  5cpt   7cpt  T20-T51      32          224
revolt  0cpt         T52           1            0
buddhi  5cpt   7cpt  T53-T55       3           21
StoneH  8cpt  15cpt
monume  1cpt  16cpt  T56-T69      14          224
                                  --          ---
                                  69          503 T69 TOTAL

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'd be inclined to skip that city until we can capture De Gaulle's capital. French cultural pressure will continue to cripple it until then. We can build an alternative city in the north to build galleys.

The only real purpose of 2SW1S is to build galleys to worker-steal and capture Paris. Otherwise, I wouldn't build the city at all.

My problem is that without further defogging, I wouldn't dare settle a galley city to the northwest. I don't think we want to delay the galley city, though. With it, we're running four strategic paths in parallel:
1. CS-slingshot for faster research and REX
2. CS-slingshot for DoP with Gandhi and tech trades
3. Developing a galley city to capture workers and Paris
4. Roading to the southern city for quicker REX

I think we have an awesome strategy going. Let's hope CHurchill, dG or Gandhi don't screw it up for us... The only thing we don't have going is an exploratory wb...but I suppose AIs have already built galleys so that's maybe suicidal anyway. Better would be to send out an exploring galley with warrior for cheap DoP with overseas AIs that don't threaten us anyway. And maybe use Paper for circumnavigation.

 

[mdy]

Our warrior to the north can defog the tiles in that area before we could found a city there, though there is unlikely to be anything up in the tundra which would mean that settling on the coast would be a problem. If De Gaulles culture will occupy that tile on T68 we probably can't found that city without risking the Oracle. In my opinion this is too much of a risk when we can easily found a galley city to the NW which would actually be slightly better (fresh water for health and the rice tile will be automatically irrigated)

 

[LowtherCastle]

The only way dG's culture could expand on T68 is if he builds a monastery by T63. A monstery will take him 4t, probably, and we'll know he's building that on the thrid turn of the build, when the hammers are between 30h and 42h, because there's no other build with over thirty hammers that doesn't get the wonder bonus or food-hammer additives. So we'll know by T62, at the latest if that's a danger. In my plan for T68 Rostov, T62 is when the worker would move to 2SW1S, so we can easily abort that and send a worker to the north to scrub there instead. So there should be no risk to teh 2SW1S site or our CS plans.

As for the preferablility of setting north, I think 2SW1S is better in the short-term. It's on the way to the powerful southern city, so our workers and roads are well positioned. It's closer to our capital for lower maintenance. It allows us to pre-farm and irrigate the rice for GP Farm. It gets the galleys quicker. We know it's okay to settle there, so we can plan for it now. After it finishes the galleys, it can build commerce and pay for much of our early maintenance costs.

As for an actual site up north, I'm clearly not seeing what you're seeing, mdy. Where would you settle up north on the river? The only coastal site that I care for, assuming it's all tundra to the north, is between the rice and the wines, which is pretty far and not on a river. But I sometimes miss obvious sites when dotmapping...

 

[babybluepants]

@mdy,
Could you give a specific location for your proposed city?

@LC,
A coastal / river site with irrigated rice, deer and ivory is actually quite strong in the short to mid term. I'm not super sure why you and Mitchum are so in love with 1S of silver. We're not going to (or at least shouldn't) be sharing the cow with that city, because it's beneficial when run continuously in Fish. That makes any silver city no more than a happy-resource grab and filler city. 1E of silver does that job fine. The rice/deer/wine is a worse city than a river one. 1SE of rice, for instance, still allows for some deer/wine or deer/something-else-north-of-there filler.

The main reason I agreed with your proposal is because it moves our workers south, preparing for further expansion that way. Edit: I still think this is a good enough reason, however, esp. since we're sacrificing some settler-worker prod in the short term to up research. So, I'm happy to follow through with the plan.

 

[mdy]

The only way dG's culture could expand on T68 is if he builds a monastery by T63.

How is this statement consistent with:

I wasn't just confused, but also ignorant. So I tested it... The turn he completes it, he gets the culture added. That means, the turn we see the announcement that it's been completed, he already got the culture. So by my corrected calcs, I now make it at T69. Meaning we need to settle it T68. Back to the drawing board...

I was thinking of 1NW 1W of the Northern ivory for city No 3, though I take the point that 2SW 1S would move our workers closer to the best site to the south.

 

[LowtherCastle]

@LC,
A coastal / river site with irrigated rice, deer and ivory is actually quite strong in the short to mid term. I'm not super sure why you and Mitchum are so in love with 1S of silver. We're not going to (or at least shouldn't) be sharing the cow with that city, because it's beneficial when run continuously in Fish. That makes any silver city no more than a happy-resource grab and filler city. 1E of silver does that job fine. The rice/deer/wine is a worse city than a river one. 1SE of rice, for instance, still allows for some deer/wine or deer/something-else-north-of-there filler.

I think you missed the significance of this qualifier I made:

The only coastal site that I care for...

As I've said before, I don't see any coastal site up there I like, except for far west, either the grassy area including the corn and the wine or the fish+corn site. I'm also not married to the silver 1S site. I wouldn't like to settle that before further defogging either. What I like about it is that it pays for itself and gets us an early deer. Like you said, silver1E also does that.

The one site up north that actually intrigues me is inland, on the river tundra east of the deer. It doesn't waste any river grass and includes 7 river grass, including the rice.

Btw, speaking of Fish using the cows, it should also work both ivory and both mines too and work very nicely as an early unit producer or commerce builder, don't you think?

I don't know. I feel like I'm sounding like a nag about this. I'd be dleighted if someone would convince me that something up north is a good alternative.

xpost w/mdy

 

[LowtherCastle]

How is this statement consistent with:

First I corrected my calculations and determined that his borders will pop on T69, so we need to settle by T68. I also redid my tests and determined that we actually can settle it on T68 and still get the 1000bc Oracle (by a whisker on CoL and a whisker on the Oracle... ). Then you suggested things could go haywire if his borders popped on T68, so I analyzed that possibility and presented the results to you to allay your concerns about that screwing up our plans.

 

[Mitchum]

I'm fine with LC's plan that has us settling on T68 and completing the Oracle on T75. I think that site gives us the most options to influence dG.

 

[babybluepants]

@LC,

Look, it's simple: there are no great cities we can reach with our third settler (like you said). The reason I proposed 1NW of northern ivory is because it can work that ivory before Fish does, and 5fpt (rice) + 4fpt (deer) seems to me to be the best short-term food surplus we can get, with reasonably limited worker involvement. In these conditions, where new cities are severely slowed down by fallout, getting a third city to pop 3-4 asap seems like the most beneficial move.

The good land is to the south, so if we can agree on your proposed filler/galley-build/worker-movement city, let's just go with it.

Edit: x-post w/ Mitchum

 

[LowtherCastle]

mdy, sorry, I get all tangled up in these discussions sometimes. Let me reboot and explain my original thinking on 2SW1S, which is still my strongest thinking on it, imo.

1. Up north, the only site that looked reasonably good was the 1W of the deer with all the river grass. This meant a weak coastal city, like what you had in mind, might screw up the only decent site up there.
2. Then I thought about next to the Paris pigs, but that screwed up the GP Farm.
3. So, thinking that we're imperialistic and settlers are cheap on this hammer-rich map, I looked for a harmless city that could build galleys, but not prevent us form settling a good site. I found 2SW1S.
4. Not only is it harmless, but it has a plains hill so we can build 3 galleys in 30t. That's just about right. It can also share tiles with Fish and GP Farm, which is often a good tactic. Finally, we could always gift it to an AI, if that turns out to be a useful tactic for some reason.

The keywords, though, are cheap, harmless, and galleys asap.

xpost with Mitchum and bbp

 

[LowtherCastle]

Diversion: Culture graphs are up

Here's my first buckshot at the Ducks:

T69 Oracle - Currency (MC?) Not enough cpt for CoL
T88 3-4 cities, no new wonders
T92 GLH (?)

 

[mdy]

O.K. I understand the reasoning about the south site, and now back it for our third city site.

 

[babybluepants]

Ok, so we're going with LC's proposed site. I'll have a look at the proposed MM and comment sometime in the next 24 hrs.

DUCKS:

Spoiler :

Turn Score Power Culture Base Culture Extra culture
32 130 10k 128 128
47 163 16k 192 188 4c / 13t
63 204 23k 302 252 46c / 16t = 3cpt
83 303 35k 532 332 150c / 20t = 7.5cpt
92 342 36k 762 368 194c / 9t = 22cpt
100 383 47k 1070 400 276c / 8t = 34cpt

+2cpt on Turn 45 - Library?

+2cpt on approx. Turn 59 - Second city?

Either:
(a) Oracle COL on about Turn 78 (that would be very late)
Or:
(b) Oracle MC/Currency on about Turn 74 (also quite late)
Or:
(c) Self-tech COL on about Turn 69-71
Or:
(d) Something like library in second city OR third city founded on Turn 75 with self-tech COL on Turn 72-74

None of those seem very impressive, I suppose.

Turn 92 save:
If they did build (a) or (d), then they either have 5 cities with 1 library, or 4 cities with 2 libraries, or 3 cities with 3 libraries, or something similar.
If it's (a), then they only have 2 cities at this point, or just founded a third.
If it's (c), they REXed hard, to 5 cities min, more likely 6.

Turn 100 save:
Seems like a wonder... Could they have gotten GLH as late as Turn 95 or so?

 

[bcool]

For the Ducks culture analysis, I didn't see the +4 cpt for an academy accounted for. Maybe that and a new city/library accounts for late culture boost?

 

[Soirana]

@LC,

Look, it's simple: there are no great cities we can reach with our third settler (like you said). The reason I proposed 1NW of northern ivory is because

You do plan scouting north before deciding, right?. You know silver [already found] and marble [possible?] are common stuff in tundra.