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SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw
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LowtherCastle
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bbp, do yo have any more data on the AI attitudes? T76 save, for example. What happened after CoL, then after Math? If there are differences maybe I can figure out dG's and Roosy's hidden random.
What kind of data do you need exactly? I gave COL, which got us +2 for Trade. Then I gave Math, which got us to +3. Still annoyed and WE. When the turn rolled, we got Cautious and DG was WE.
LowtherCastle
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Well, I'd like to know what happened to dG's and Roosy's attitudes toward Gandhi after each of those trades. They both have -4 for trading with our WE. Was that incremental? Did they have only -2 or something after CoL?
Edit: Plus, where they Annoyed, Cautious, Furious, for different values, if you have any.
Edit: Plus, where they Annoyed, Cautious, Furious, for different values, if you have any.
Attitudes don't seem to change until turn roll. After I gave both COL and Math on Turn 76, DG was still +1 Annoyed and Roosevelt still +1 Pleased.
Edit: scratch that. Those were the values on the start of Turn 77, until I made the CS trade.
Edit: scratch that. Those were the values on the start of Turn 77, until I made the CS trade.
LowtherCastle
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THought I sent the message, but guess not.
I'd like to know what happened to dG's and Roosy's attitude toward Gandhi at each interval: after CoL, after Math. Now they have -4 traded with our WE. I'm looking for the visible attitude value along with the description (Cautious, Annoyed, Furious). In other at which value did Roosy go from Pleased to Cautious, and dG from Annoyed to Furious. That info may not have been availalbe, though, if the WE value went from 0 to -4 in one jump.
lol xpost (with myself) now the damn post appears. I don't know what's going on with my interent connection this morning.
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Okay, thanks for checking. We'll just have to wait for more AI interaction to figure it all out.
I'd like to know what happened to dG's and Roosy's attitude toward Gandhi at each interval: after CoL, after Math. Now they have -4 traded with our WE. I'm looking for the visible attitude value along with the description (Cautious, Annoyed, Furious). In other at which value did Roosy go from Pleased to Cautious, and dG from Annoyed to Furious. That info may not have been availalbe, though, if the WE value went from 0 to -4 in one jump.
lol xpost (with myself) now the damn post appears. I don't know what's going on with my interent connection this morning.
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Okay, thanks for checking. We'll just have to wait for more AI interaction to figure it all out.
RRRaskolnikov
Goldfish
lurker's comment: Hilarious pic LC. 
LowtherCastle
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Revolt to Bureau+slavery NOW! 
Southern warrior should go due south in the fog, I think, in case we find an AI down there. Remember to zoom out each turn and look at the Culture overview to see if we're nearing an AI. Also, defog the coast for possible trade routes.
Silver wkrs: next worker goes to scrub Silver-S, then roads Silver-E; second worker goes to river deer and scrubs.
Pigs wkrs: continue leapfrogging; eventually first wkr leapfrogs to plains hill to road, second wkr roads rice. Edit: Our workers could actually road to and clear the site+gems by T94 as well, as per mdy below. Interesting idea, closing dG's settling off. Problem is, looks like he's building a settler and it will be done in 5t turns or less, depending on whether he poprushes it.
T78 gift dG Sailing. Critical: Monitor the Paris espionage screen each turn to see what he starts building after the current build (wkr or settler). Hopefully lighthouse at ~7hpt. Currently he's producing 11fhpt. (Edit: Can't be a wonder because that would be 10 or 12hpt. Can't be a worker(43h) because he has 44h in it already.) If dG is building the lh, we need to seriously consider researching Masonry ourselves to gift to him before he completes the lh. If someone else completes the GLH or dG refuses to build the lh, then we may want to hurry up the chariot for worker stealing. If we can steal 2 workers for Gems City, then the settler will be done sooner...
Check every turn if we can DoP Roosy/Churchill. I think they'll both trade us IW, Mono, and maybe Masonry.
Anyone know if Buddhism can autospread without OBs? We could consider saving our Confucian Miss. It ought to autospread to Galley City pretty quickly. Our Conf Miss could explore dG's western land, while the warrior goes south. I'm not sure that getting Gandhi into COnfucianism sooner than later makes that big a difference. I don't see us going to Confucianism before OrgRel at the earliest, because that would kill any chances to get OBs+trades with Churchill.
Check each turn if dG has enough on his hands (war planning).
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In general, I think we just continue our balanced development. I looked at settling Marble before Silver, but I doubt it's better, because Marble can't work a food tile before 10
unless Silver already has the river deer. So Silver improves deer-deer-silver and when we settle Marble it borrows the river deer. This timing also works pretty well with Moscow improving rice-copper and growing to pop6 after making the Silver and Pigs settlers.
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Btw, as I recall, Gandhi does not take a -1 neg mod if we refuse to give in to his tech demand. We just miss the opportunity for a +1 with him.
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Hey, Ras! wazzup? Still doesn't come close to your pic of Erkon!!!
Southern warrior should go due south in the fog, I think, in case we find an AI down there. Remember to zoom out each turn and look at the Culture overview to see if we're nearing an AI. Also, defog the coast for possible trade routes.
Silver wkrs: next worker goes to scrub Silver-S, then roads Silver-E; second worker goes to river deer and scrubs.
Pigs wkrs: continue leapfrogging; eventually first wkr leapfrogs to plains hill to road, second wkr roads rice. Edit: Our workers could actually road to and clear the site+gems by T94 as well, as per mdy below. Interesting idea, closing dG's settling off. Problem is, looks like he's building a settler and it will be done in 5t turns or less, depending on whether he poprushes it.
T78 gift dG Sailing. Critical: Monitor the Paris espionage screen each turn to see what he starts building after the current build (
Check every turn if we can DoP Roosy/Churchill. I think they'll both trade us IW, Mono, and maybe Masonry.
Anyone know if Buddhism can autospread without OBs? We could consider saving our Confucian Miss. It ought to autospread to Galley City pretty quickly. Our Conf Miss could explore dG's western land, while the warrior goes south. I'm not sure that getting Gandhi into COnfucianism sooner than later makes that big a difference. I don't see us going to Confucianism before OrgRel at the earliest, because that would kill any chances to get OBs+trades with Churchill.
Check each turn if dG has enough on his hands (war planning).
---------------------
In general, I think we just continue our balanced development. I looked at settling Marble before Silver, but I doubt it's better, because Marble can't work a food tile before 10
unless Silver already has the river deer. So Silver improves deer-deer-silver and when we settle Marble it borrows the river deer. This timing also works pretty well with Moscow improving rice-copper and growing to pop6 after making the Silver and Pigs settlers.---------------------
Btw, as I recall, Gandhi does not take a -1 neg mod if we refuse to give in to his tech demand. We just miss the opportunity for a +1 with him.
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Hey, Ras! wazzup? Still doesn't come close to your pic of Erkon!!!
De Gaulle will probably settle the gems site in the near future. If we want this site maybe we should found it as our third city?
Religion can spread without open borders provided there is a valid potential trade route connection between the holy city and the other city for either the civ with the holy city, or the civ that owns the other city.
bcool
Deity
Long Term plan for Moscow...
I was thinking that we might make Moscow our NE city and just build a ton of wonders there. Isn't this what Plastic Ducks did in the last SGOTM? Moscow is going to have a ton of hammers and we will want to build several wonders there, over the short and long term we get a lot more benefit from the NE there than waiting 60+? turns to get it built and running with specialists in another site.
Something to consider I suppose.
In my experience of watching BOTM, people who go the corporation route always beat the Communism approach to space.
It is true we are going to have a lot of cities, but with Wallstreet in the corp hq city and courthouses in the cities themselves (which can often be built very quickly using either whips from extra pop from Sushi or from the hammers from Mining Inc) the money issues are not as detrimental as the advantages are beneficial.
I think we need to consider right now which route we are planning on taking since it does take some planning to get a great engineer, etc.
I was thinking that we might make Moscow our NE city and just build a ton of wonders there. Isn't this what Plastic Ducks did in the last SGOTM? Moscow is going to have a ton of hammers and we will want to build several wonders there, over the short and long term we get a lot more benefit from the NE there than waiting 60+? turns to get it built and running with specialists in another site.
Something to consider I suppose.
In my experience of watching BOTM, people who go the corporation route always beat the Communism approach to space.
It is true we are going to have a lot of cities, but with Wallstreet in the corp hq city and courthouses in the cities themselves (which can often be built very quickly using either whips from extra pop from Sushi or from the hammers from Mining Inc) the money issues are not as detrimental as the advantages are beneficial.
I think we need to consider right now which route we are planning on taking since it does take some planning to get a great engineer, etc.
I'd like to settle Silver > Pigs > Marble. After that probably the GP farm, if we do continue with Calendar (which I think is still open for debate). Rushing to gems doesn't appeal. It's a huge investment of worker turns, and there's really no guarantee we'd even get it. It's not even such a good city under the circumstances. Food trumps everything here - we need fast-developing cities, I think. It wouldn't even get to work both gems until probably 50t after founding (random number off the top of my head).
Your worker leaping is solid, LC, assuming once again that we're teching Calendar and founding the GP farm soon. It's possible to shave 1-2t off Pig city development by moving south faster, at a loss to overall worker turns. It's not too important, though.
North workers seem to run into a jam by the time the third settler is out - this happens before the Moscow growth cycle, due to the initial delay in irrigating rice. With copper demanding more Moscow worker turns, I'd consider a third worker before growth and a third settler. That's to be decided after my set, though.
I'm not used to worker-farming in regular games. How does this affect diplo? I guess as long as DG is Gandhi's WE, we don't get hits for repeated DOW's?
Is that true about Gandhi demand refusal? Is this specifically for Gandhi? In most games, he doesn't typically demand anything from me due to excellent relations, so I can't remember.
Is the plan to convert him to Confu long-term? It's perhaps ambitious, but I think it has merit. If so, I wouldn't necessarily depend on auto-spread, especially as it's a competition between Confu and Budd. Long term, we'll capture French cities, so maybe Buddhism is the better choice. Anyway, scouting with the missionary is an option. What does everyone think?
Edit: x-post
Your worker leaping is solid, LC, assuming once again that we're teching Calendar and founding the GP farm soon. It's possible to shave 1-2t off Pig city development by moving south faster, at a loss to overall worker turns. It's not too important, though.
North workers seem to run into a jam by the time the third settler is out - this happens before the Moscow growth cycle, due to the initial delay in irrigating rice. With copper demanding more Moscow worker turns, I'd consider a third worker before growth and a third settler. That's to be decided after my set, though.
I'm not used to worker-farming in regular games. How does this affect diplo? I guess as long as DG is Gandhi's WE, we don't get hits for repeated DOW's?
Is that true about Gandhi demand refusal? Is this specifically for Gandhi? In most games, he doesn't typically demand anything from me due to excellent relations, so I can't remember.
Is the plan to convert him to Confu long-term? It's perhaps ambitious, but I think it has merit. If so, I wouldn't necessarily depend on auto-spread, especially as it's a competition between Confu and Budd. Long term, we'll capture French cities, so maybe Buddhism is the better choice. Anyway, scouting with the missionary is an option. What does everyone think?
Edit: x-post
bcool
Deity
What about settling Marble first and a beeline to Literature for an early Great Library and NE in Moscow?
Really? Check out the Shaka Emp BOTM (circa BOTM 20) for Dynamic's game - he's the bloody master of corporation-driven space race, but smoked that game with SP. I'm sure I've seen other examples. It's really situational, but also problematic because of the setup, as you point out. If I was committed to it, I'd be doing my best to get Pyramids and HG, as well as teching MC very soon, for instance (much like we did last game for the UN GE). It can remain open for discussion for now, I think. We have uncommonly poor map exploration for this stage of the game, so it's very difficult to guess what's better.
NE location is open to debate. If I was playing this solo, I'd be wonder-chasing in Moscow and putting NE there. It's the main reason I've been pushing for rapid growth and production-capacity increase there. After some testing and more thinking, I believe mdy and LC are right about focusing on REX for now, though. I think we'll certainly want TGL and MoM at least, and NE might still be better there. The issue with our "GP Farm" is that it will take quite some time to set up, especially as we're not settling it until our 6th city at least, and have no access to two food resources for the foreseeable future.
Edit: x-post. I was researching Lit after Currency in testing (why I say Calendar is open to debate). It finishes too quickly, though. We should really plan to have 4 settlers + 4 workers as a minimum in the near future. Marble is settled well in advance of any of this anyway. Also, in the real game, we didn't get Poly in this trade cycle, so planning on Lit right now is a bit premature. We'll probably get it with Currency later.
I'll be busy today. Will try to squeeze in a final tweaking test run tonight and post a plan for play tmr night...
bcool
Deity
"always" might have been an exaggeration. But the earliest dates for space race seem to be from corporation games (perhaps as you say because the map was built for it).
But we know almost all the AI have coastal capitals (which likely means all of them have at least 1 seafood resource). We know there are more islands on this map from Erkon's hints. So that also likely means there is a bit more seafood than usual.
We will have a large empire, but there are no vassal states--and so no off-continent extra maintenance--so the maintenance of our cities won't be as bad as it could be.
I'm just thinking that corporations seem to make more sense here if we can plan for them starting nowish.
But we know almost all the AI have coastal capitals (which likely means all of them have at least 1 seafood resource). We know there are more islands on this map from Erkon's hints. So that also likely means there is a bit more seafood than usual.
We will have a large empire, but there are no vassal states--and so no off-continent extra maintenance--so the maintenance of our cities won't be as bad as it could be.
I'm just thinking that corporations seem to make more sense here if we can plan for them starting nowish.
You're right that we should start tentatively planning. My current preference for Communism is actually mainly based on the fact we haven't planned anything long-term at this stage. Let's open up that discussion...
LowtherCastle
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bcool, could you link a couple of representative corporation SV games?
I'd like to get an idea of the basic strategy. I have no experience with it. In fact, I've never even done Sid's Sushi, so I'm not really competent to discuss it all, but I think I could figure out what they did looking at the saves. I have however studied the articles, so I have a basic idea of Sushi and MIning.
We have some uniquenesses in this scenario: the negmods, the fallout, not really too many islands so far, not sure how to compare the relative amounts of Sushi+ Mining resources, etc. All those would have to match up somehow with the comparison saves.
I'd like to get an idea of the basic strategy. I have no experience with it. In fact, I've never even done Sid's Sushi, so I'm not really competent to discuss it all, but I think I could figure out what they did looking at the saves. I have however studied the articles, so I have a basic idea of Sushi and MIning.
We have some uniquenesses in this scenario: the negmods, the fallout, not really too many islands so far, not sure how to compare the relative amounts of Sushi+ Mining resources, etc. All those would have to match up somehow with the comparison saves.
RRRaskolnikov
Goldfish
@LC: you can have a look at G-Major 45 thread...
It contains numerous interesting posts from PaulisKhan and Shannon CT (near the end) about corporations boosted production economy for space (the gauntlet is space race so science is the goal). Shannon even provided saves in the end so you might find what you are looking for...
It contains numerous interesting posts from PaulisKhan and Shannon CT (near the end) about corporations boosted production economy for space (the gauntlet is space race so science is the goal). Shannon even provided saves in the end so you might find what you are looking for...
LowtherCastle
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Thx. What about saves from Dynamic, for both corporation and state property. I just read a very recent post by him that he's not sure which is better, telling me that it completely depends on the situation.
bcool
Deity
I'll try to find more examples but I don't have much time at work.
There was a recent Renaissance start BotM that had some discussion about corporations in space race victories.
I've also looked at some of the earliest space race victories in the HoF and they seemed to be corporation games. But that might be leader and map dependent.
There was a recent Renaissance start BotM that had some discussion about corporations in space race victories.
I've also looked at some of the earliest space race victories in the HoF and they seemed to be corporation games. But that might be leader and map dependent.
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