SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

Mitchum: GP Farm has not been scrubbed, the nearby sugar has been scrubbed somewhat. Ideally, both would be scrubbed in advance and two workers would be ready to start the plantation, the turn GP Farm is settled.

bbp would have to update us on how many turns the sugar has been scrubbed from his saves.
 
I think we do have enough production to support our rex without worker stealing. At most we would only be able to steal a couple of workers from De Gaulle, and it looks like it will be cheaper to build them directly than to build the units needed to steal them. True growth will be a little slower in the capital, but from my tests this does not lose us much.
 
Remember SG7, OCC deity? When we final went to war with the AIs, each one had built about 10-20 units in each city. They have to build something.

dG has 2-3 productive cities. Look at it this way, would you rather we build workers and he builds units we have to kill later or we build units and he builds workers for us now? Orleans already has barracks and granary. It can build a lh and units. His settler turned back, so evidently he's not going to build any more settlers. What'll he build?

Now suppose we capture two workers, then he kills one of our chariots, so we can't DoP without an expensive tech. So we trade him CoL. I wouldn't mind seeing him build a couple of chs for us before we capture his cities, although there' sno guarantee he would. Of course, there's no guarantee about anything, but I don't see why we need to play so conservatively. AIs are stupid. They make every decision, unit by unit (except of SoDs...). One unit will decide to attack our chariot, the next will decide to explore Churchill, one archer will hunt mushrooms in the forest, the next will board a galley, and the gally will travel to Timbuktu.

Btw, I doubt we'd steal only 2 workers. We should be able to steal a couple every turnset or so, at least until T117. Then it may be more difficult accessing wkrs. If we could only get 1-2 workers, then I'd agree with you. I just doubt it will play out that way, becaue dG is still in REX mode.

But whatever. Mitchum, just go ahead and play and do what you think is wisest. It's your turnset. Play conservatively if you prefer, no probs. Take a smart risk, if you prefer, and if you make a mess of it, no probs, we'll clean it up! Be flexible. Have fun and enjoy!
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For what it is worth, I agree with what LC said. I think we need to steal workers to make the most out the opportunities we have. Getting the 3rd and 4th chariots will help us more than a market will, and they will protect us in the worst case scenario.

I would much rather DeG be building workers rather than more units we have to kill.
 
bbp would have to update us on how many turns the sugar has been scrubbed from his saves.
There should be a small plastic device on your desk, most likely with two buttons and a wheel, connected to the computer through a cable. If you move it around, you may notice that a yellow arrow is moving around the screen in unison. If you could get that arrow pointing at the sugar, you may discover the answer to your question in the lower left corner of the screen. :D
Spoiler :

:joke: IIRC, there's 3t of scrubbing left.


In my test games, Gandhi has teched HBR quite often. If we're going down the Lit path first, as discussed, we could find out later whether an HBR trade is likely or not. Construction is way cheaper than MC-Machinery and probably even more effective in this case. It's an option...

Worker stealing: Like mdy, I doubt we'll get a significant enough reward. DG will spam more archers if at war, which is why I don't generally like to do these things unless the reward is quite substantial or I can really cripple the AI.

Like I said before, though, if you guys wanna steal it's ok with me. Pillaging the road and waiting for a second worker to show up, while we build a couple more chariots is more appealing than an immediate steal. We should just build chariots while growing anyway, IMHO. In a different setup an early market would be pretty awesome, but we don't really have production to spare and our growth is well behind happy resources.

Edit: x-post.
 
With a quick ceasefire he won't be spamming archers for long...and it looks like he already is. So I would rather DeG switch to building workers to replace the ones we steal.
 
If we go to war with De gaulle won't he be spamming units regardless? An immediate ceasefire might avoid this, but how can we be sure of getting one in these circumstances? If we can't get one the worker steal option would be hopelessly inefficient compared to the remain at peace option. If he is going to be building units anyway it would be a lot easier to dispose of them with maces.
 
LC tested this and it seems to hold true for my emperor games as well. If you have early war success (by stealing workers) he will agree to a ceasefire once he is willing to talk.
 
What happens if we lose a chariot to an archer (not that unlikely in the current situation)?

Did these tests take account of De Gaulle already having some war success against us at the beginning of the game? Or was it wiped clear when we made peace?
 
OK, I'm going to play until T97. This is the turn the granary is completed in Moscow and we'd have to decide whether to build two chariots (my vote) or something else. This is also the turn we'd have to decide whether to split up W1 and W3, sending one to GP Farm site for scrubbing and the other to scrub/farm Pigs rice. I will keep both chariots north of Rheims, continually pillaging the road in the hopes of luring another worker (or more) from the north.

BTW, we don't know that De Gaulle's settler turned around. He could be on the forest NW+NW of Rheims, having been joined by the archer that was N+N+NW of Rheims. I hope he does settle the city because it will draw more of his archers in that direction.
 
Ok, go ahead. Looking forward to an update... :)

I assume the settler skipped two tiles. They've been doing that in testing. I think it's because of no barbs.
 
Ok, go ahead. Looking forward to an update... :)

I assume the settler skipped two tiles. They've been doing that in testing. I think it's because of no barbs.
What?!?!? In that case, maybe a chariot or the warrior should go after it and wipe it out before any archers get there?
 
If we go to war with De gaulle won't he be spamming units regardless? An immediate ceasefire might avoid this, but how can we be sure of getting one in these circumstances? If we can't get one the worker steal option would be hopelessly inefficient compared to the remain at peace option. If he is going to be building units anyway it would be a lot easier to dispose of them with maces.

What happens if we lose a chariot to an archer (not that unlikely in the current situation)?

Did these tests take account of De Gaulle already having some war success against us at the beginning of the game? Or was it wiped clear when we made peace?
de Gaulle has this in the XML:

<iRefuseToTalkWarThreshold>5</iRefuseToTalkWarThreshold>

Gandhi has 6, Roosy 10, the others 8. This also matches with when each was willing to talk to us at the beginning of the game. As long as we DoW, that's what it is. If they DoW us, it doubles.

In my testing, dG is willing to talk after 2t if we capture 1 worker and and defeats nothing back. If he beats our chariot, it's 5t again. That's why I decided it's safer not to capture the worker now. Plus, the fact that his archer will be able to capture Pigs the turn we settle it... ;)

Once he talks, we can get peace, one way or another, so that's not the issue.
 
Key things that happened:
  • We can finally see Gandhi’s research: Theology
  • Roosevelt meets De Gaulle on T92
  • De Gaulle goes WHEOOHRN on T95
  • Roosevelt learns Construction on T97
  • Churchill meets Mao (first AI met) on T97
  • Mao appears to be building something big in Shanghi
  • Churchill’s archer never moved on the land bridge, so our missionary has been going back and forth between the GL and the forest waiting for him to move so we can sneak past.
  • De Gaulle’s archer is heading north on our road toward Moscow.
  • I’ve pillaged De Gaulle’s road but no workers have shown up yet.
  • Exploration NE and SE are progressing. Nothing much up in the NE. In the SE, there is a two tile island with clams and fish. There is a bigger island to the SE of that.
Details:
Spoiler :
T92
De Gaulle meets Roosevelt
De Gaulle learns Writing
Mao learns PH
Mao founds Xian
Roosevelt founds Philadelphia
Mao +17
DeG +14
Roos +11
Church +14

T93
Gandhi looks to be researching Theology (it flashes on the leader board for a millisecond)
Roos +19
DeG +8
Church +2

T94
Gandhi is researching Theology
Mao learns Calendar
Mao +12
Roos +18
DeG +5
Church -23

T95
De Gaulle founds Tours
De Gaulle goes WHEOOHRN
Churchill learns IW
Mao -5
Gandhi +2
Roos -17
DeG -11
Church +12

T96
Gandhi +2
Roos +6
DeG -6
Church +17

T97
Churchill meets Mao
Roosevelt learns Construction
Gandhi +6
Roos +12
DeG +6
Church -11


Turn Log:
Spoiler :
Here is your Session Turn Log from 575 BC to 450 BC:

Turn 92, 575 BC: Aryabhata (Great Scientist) has been born in Fish (Catherine)!

Turn 94, 525 BC: The borders of Siberia have expanded!

Turn 95, 500 BC: Moscow can hurry Granary for 1? with 18? overflow and +1? for 10 turns.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Fish can hurry Granary for 2? with 19? overflow and +1? for 10 turns.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Churchill will trade Iron Working
Turn 95, 500 BC: Pigs has been founded.


Should I carry on with my PPP, building 2 chariots rather than a market or barracks? Do we need to worry about De Gaulle going WHEOOHRN, or is he going after Gandhi, his worst enemy?

Save has been uploaded.
 
Sabotage info:

Spoiler :
Code:
PARIS

      Building       Production
T92	396		198
T93	396		229
T94	396		  -
T95	393		 78
T96	393		  -
T97	393		  -

ORLEANS

      Building       Production
T92	417		108
T93	417		200
T94	417		291
T95	414		  -
T96	414		 99
T97	414		132

RHEIMS

      Building       Production
T92	  -		  -
T93	  -		 25
T94	  -		 42
T95	  -		 59
T96	  -		 85
T97	  -		110

TOURS

      Building       Production
T95	  -		 18
T96	  -		 36
T97	  -		 54

SHANGHI (MAO)

      Building       Production
T92	444		426
T93	447		455
T94	447		482
T95	453		516
T96	456		547
T97	456		574
 
I forgot to post the changes in relationship/attitude:

T92: Roosevelt meets De Gaulle - +1 Cautious (white)
T92: De Gaulle meets Roosevelt - +1 Annoyed (blue)
T92: Roosevelt goes from -2 to -1 toward Gandhi (still Cautious)
T94: De Gaulle goes from -4 to -3 toward Gandhi (still Furious and still worst enemy)
T96: Roosevelt goes from -4 to -5 toward us (still Annoyed)
 
De Gaulle will almost certainly be going after Gandhi, so I don't think we need to worry about that, but if he is in the middle of a military build up worker stealing will probably be even more difficult.

We could consider building a monastry along with the barracks to help with our research?
 
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