SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[bcool]

Does anyone know if we get failure gold for a wonder when we discover a tech which makes it obsolete?

good question. I don't know the answer. We need to decide if we are going to finish the Parthenon or just use it for failure gold.

The earliest we could efficiently switch to Caste System and Pacifism would be 8 turns? (need to build a spy and have them wait for 5 turns in Galley City)

I think the time to switch definitely could happen in my turn set. Something I would like to test out. See where our cities are after 8 turns.

 

[babybluepants]

NI suppose a Friday play date is more likely now. I won't be able to focus on the game tomorrow (and I suspect I'll be pretty tired when I get home) So a detailed PPP on Wednesday before noon PST is my goal. (If there is no test game I'll make one Wednesday morning and then go from there with my planning)

Tried to do it late last night, but kept messing it up. Hard to keep track of all the damn workers now. I'll def. have it done tonight if no one else does.

One question: is there a way to enforce OB with Roosevelt in the test game? Our TR income is way off on some turns.

Does anyone know if we get failure gold for a wonder when we discover a tech which makes it obsolete?

No idea. Not something that comes up very often. Easy to test, I would think.
Last game we obsoleted TGL before it was built, IIRC.

 

[babybluepants]

The earliest we could efficiently switch to Caste System and Pacifism would be 8 turns? (need to build a spy and have them wait for 5 turns in Galley City)

I think the time to switch definitely could happen in my turn set. Something I would like to test out. See where our cities are after 8 turns.

The reasons not to would presumably be:

• Extra unit maintenance
• Spending the Gandhi EP - we can't track his progress on Lib
• Need more missionaries / building whips to develop lagging cities

I don't think we'll have enough units for the first to matter.

The second is nice to have, but not super necessary. That is, if we can assume he'll go Lib straight after Education. In my experience, that's a safe bet. But if he didn't for some reason, we'd potentially stand to lose a lot of beakers.

I think we have enough cities well-enough developed to give up OR soon. If this was the plan, though, we'd kinda want to rush some more infra whips and get some more missionaries out quickly, I think. With the upcoming cat/mace rush, that may be a stretch.

We're far enough away from Lib-Comm-Bio for this switch to make obvious sense. I think it's a question of timing. What does everyone think?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Making the test save

Most important is having the city MM right, which means the food and hammers right, and workers in the right position at the end.

Up to the last turn, I only worry about workers that affect MM in city BFCs. Then I just fix the workers and tiles using WB on the last turn.

Same thing with the research, except that gets fixed starting the second-to-last turn. This is anyway the least important and I don't and wouldn't trust it in testing.

EDIT: Btw, the city MM is also the hardest for someone else to do. The rest is easy.

 

[babybluepants]

^^ I started figuring all that out this morning. I'm used to replicating exactly, since I've never taken a test game nearly this far. Anyway, I'm on top of it now, but heading off to work, so it won't happen 'till tonight. Sorry, guys.

 

[LowtherCastle]

maybe we should revolt to CS in the very near future. With high food surpluses we could very quickly hire a large number of scientists, leading to a massive boost in our research rate.

I think it's a question of timing. What does everyone think?

I think we need courthoues in Pigs and Bahamas first.

 

[bcool]

In 8 turns I think we will be able to easily get courthouses in Pigs, Bahamas, and Bermuda without sacrificing gp production.

I really don't think Gandhi has the research to get education very quickly. And especially after we take away his health resources he won't be running too many specialists.

I think we will be able to see Gandhi's research in approx 8 turns, before we have to decide to switch or not switch to pacifism/caste system. I'm very confident we will be able to get Biology with liberalism either by building the Parthenon and staying with slavery a bit longer or with a swtich to caste system and pacifism in 8 or so turns.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Getting back to your turnset, bcool, your PPP looks quite solid to me.

Now, EPs with Mao for Communism are the Critical Path for us, moreso for sure than research or GS spamming. Our best chance for that lies in Beijing and Guangzhou, in the hopes we'll score an Intel Agency. So we want to run our Mao Campaign asap...

As for this:

Shanghai plan:
Nicely worked out, but it seems kind of crazy to me to be building up unpromoted catapults for a new war against a PRO AI in the few turns leading up to trebs and a 100hpt HE. Can we think through some other options?

I studied how we can include some trebs from Moscow without delaying our assault, and the key is getting a second galley out of Paris by T159. Possible.

Trebs for Mao, in a nutshell
Research: Engineering (100% after Oxford)
Moscow: cat(40/50h)-Oxford-cat(finish)-HE(2t w/OF from cat)-trebs @1 per turn (assuming we get our 10XP T154, promoted T155).
Paris: granary(2pop)-galley(2pop)-galley(1pop), You'll need to work the hill mine for 2t to be able to 1pop the galley by T158. You'll need to capture Orleans by T155 for that and hopefully our culture grab the hill immediately.

This will give you one cat and one treb from Moscow for our Shanghai-SE SoD. We probably want one more suicide cat, which will have to be built quickly, either in Fish, GP or Pigs (I haven't done a workout on this). I think SIberia is now too late.

 

[bcool]

I noticed the 8 xp macemen was left in Paris, and I thought this might be a problem but I guess not...

T152 8 xp macemen moves 1 closer to Orleans (either a macemen in stack or one protecting workers moves to Paris. Workers unprotected build fort in tile they are in?
T153 moves adj to Orleans, Orleans is bombarded
T154 Orleans bombardment finishes, 8 xp macemen attacks a wounded axe (assuming we sacrifice the 3rd catapult with CRII.
T155 Promote 8 xp macemen (okay it is doable)

 

[babybluepants]

I don't think we need the Parthenon at this point. If anything it will obsolete rather quickly and Moscow has plenty of builds lined up.

It's a bit sacrilegious to run Caste w/o Pac and we do need some GS, but spec slots are what we primarily need to boost research in the short term. One other option might be Theo coupled with Caste? Assuming we want to continue building up units in Moscow and Fish. Theo does have great synergy with Slavery, though that mainly applies when ALL cities have state religion, forge and barracks. That would allow us to delay the Philo steal, if a delay is desirable. Then Pac with State Prop...

 

[LowtherCastle]

Orleans Capture

Don't see how it could happen on T154. He has 8 defenders and we could only have 5 maces by then. My plan was:
T154 Bombard with all 3 cats
T155 Finish bombardment as needed > suicide CR2 > kill top 6 defenders with 6 maces (southern one can join by then)
T156 Two swords also arrive, and we can just mop up with healthiest units

We shouldn't be risking any maces. We're low on troops and they're all nicely promoted.

These dates are off by 1t. Our stack moves to Orleans-NE now, T152, and bombards T153/T154. Assuming he doesn't build walls in between, we're good to go. I would do it this way:

T152
Cancel ALL worker actions!!! Everywhere (play it safe).
Move Pigs chariot toward galley to garrison in Paris T153.
Move medic mace to hill at Paris-1SW
Move Paris mace and Paris-1S mace to same hill at Paris-1SW
Paris is now unguarded, but Orleans cannot move any units to the Paris-SW hill, but only to the plains. If needed, we can attack them or send 1, 2 or 3 of our maces back to Paris to defend.
Move rest of the stack to Orleans-NE (not to the hill at Orleans-E!!!) from here a unit can move back to Pairs in 1t after capturing Orleans, if needed.
Road the tile 1NW of our northwestern gems.
Move the Rheims mace NW to the hill at Orleans-2SW
Move the two swords to the hill at Orleans-2SW
Move the two axes back S to our gems tile. They are still threatening Marseilles from here.
The four workers at Paris-S all build a fort there for 1 turn.

T153
Move the galley+chariot into Paris and disembark
Move the Medic mace into Paris
Move the other two maces 1SW to Orleans-1NE
Bombard Orleans
Move the mace+2swords 1NE to Orleans-1SW
Move the 2 chariots in Rheims to the hill at Orleans-2SW
3 workers finish the fort, while the fourth goes to the stack at Orleans-1NE

Now you have 6 maces, 2 swords and 2 chariots that can attack Orleans on T154. Hopefully that's enough, although dG could draft or poprush more...

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bcool, you discussed the notion of leaving Paris empty and possibly losing it, but recapturing. While this is a stong and useful tactic, in our situation, this would be catastrophic for our Mao Campaign. Do not allow Paris to be recaptured. Rather delay the capture of Orleans, if necessary.

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xpost -- bcool, looks like you've already got the same idea I had...

 

[mdy]

Both our primary unit producing cities will be able to produce 5XP shortly without theocracy, and there is not a big difference between a 5XP and a 7XP unit. If we did not go with pacifism (my preferred option) I think OR for our secondary cities would be more useful than theocracy.

Do we need to build another missionary in Siberia? Our core cities already have Confunicism, and it will probably spread naturally to most of our remaining cities in the not too distant future. We already have 2 spare missionaries in the event another religion spreads to some of our missionaries.

As scientific method is not too far away I think we should build a couple of Confunican monastries to enable us to continue building missionaries without OR. We might want a Buddhist monastry in Paris as well (mainly to give us the option of opening up another priest slot with a temple later).

Edit: xpost with LC, the battle plan for Orleans looks good.

 

[bcool]

Move the two swords to the hill at Orleans-2SW

I believe DeG would attack 2 swords with an axe if they are alone and in reach. Not sure if this would be a horrible thing, but just bringing it up.

I will practice this with a test game and then I'll have more comments, but I think I understand as much as I can right now without access to the game.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I believe DeG would attack 2 swords with an axe if they are alone and in reach. Not sure if this would be a horrible thing, but just bringing it up.

I agree. That's why:

Move the Rheims mace NW to the hill at Orleans-2SW
Move the two swords to the hill at Orleans-2SW

Definitely test it out and make sure it all goes together. I haven't played it out yet.

EDIT: You could also move the two chariots in Rheims to the hill at the same time, but 1) that leaves Rheims empty and inviting an SoD, and 2) it's a waste of 1g in maintenance. WHen the chariots go there alone, the mace/2swords will be between them and Orleans.

EDIT2: You might consider moving just one chariot to that hill on T152, because then when you attack on T154, it will still have half a movement (or does it if it attacks up a hill? I forget...).

 

[LowtherCastle]

More thoughts on MM

Before I forget....

If we're going to build a cat in Moscow for 1t, then we can put the GP Farm overflow into Oxford and get the coins back immediately, rather than wait for Parthenon.
GP Farm should work a spy full-time, starting now.
If GP Farm has an idle sugar tile, it might as well give the bananas to Bananas for that turn.
If we're going to start growing GP Farm for CS, we need the silver mined asap and a garrison there in the next few turns (after Orleans ).
If we're going to start growing Siberia for CS, then we need another worker there farming asap.
If we're going to start growing Pigs for CS, then we need more farms asap.

Let's send the languishing Bermuda workboat to the Moscow NNE island to defog it finally. Then it will be in place to make whaling boats about the time we trade for or steal Optics.

 

[Mitchum]

Now, EPs with Mao for Communism are the Critical Path for us, moreso for sure than research or GS spamming. Our best chance for that lies in Beijing and Guangzhou, in the hopes we'll score an Intel Agency. So we want to run our Mao Campaign asap...

Just a thought: What if instead of trying to steal Communism from Mao, we get it as part of a Peace Treaty? We could get Mao down to one city and then get Communism for peace. Gift him an iceball and then capture his last organic city 10 turns later.

I'm just not sure exactly what the AI will give up for peace, but it sounds possible... and less epp intensive. Plus it lets us keep epp on Gandhi for future tech steals as they come up.

 

[babybluepants]

Agree with the Orleans plan. The chariots are a good idea. The main problem is the sheer number of defenders. He'll most likely at least whip one more, so we could be looking at 3+3+3 total. If we attack with 6 maces + 2 swords + 2 chariots, hopefully that gets the city in 1t. Ideally the maces can clear the archers and axes completely, so we don't have to have a sword attacking a C1 axe.

If we need to pick off a reinforcement or 2 outside of the city, we may be back to having too few units, but what can you do? At least that gives us an excellent chance at farming 10xp.

Definitely don't lose Paris.

Just a thought: What if instead of trying to steal Communism from Mao, we get it as part of a Peace Treaty? We could get Mao down to one city and then get Communism for peace. Gift him an iceball and then capture his last organic city 10 turns later.

I'm just not sure exactly what the AI will give up for peace, but it sounds possible... and less epp intensive. Plus it lets us keep epp on Gandhi for future tech steals as they come up.

This has been discussed. Silu told us that tech extortion past the very early stages of the game is effectively impossible.

 

[Mitchum]

This has been discussed. Silu told us that tech extortion past the very early stages of the game is effectively impossible.

I guess I missed that. Just to be sure I play tested it by WB myself a nice stack of maces, cats and trebs. I got Mao down to one city and he would not give up Communism as you said.

One thing I noted is that Mao's cities are going to be VERY hard to capture. At least in the test, most of them had 2 to 3 highly-promoted longbows (as expected). Add to this that most of his cities are on hills. I had to sacrifice 2 to 4 cats after taking down cultural defenses to cause collateral damage. Even then, it usually took 3 to 4 maces to take out that first longbow. It's going to take a huge stack with steady reinforcements to crack Mao.

 

[babybluepants]

For some reason, I'm finding this nearly impossible to do. Keep making mistakes and only discovering them 2-3t later. Anyway, 3 hrs later, here's a completely imperfect 840 AD save. Some cities may be off a touch. Units, improvements and money are off. Really have to stop for tonight, but I can fix it up further first thing tmr.

 

[LowtherCastle]

One thing I noted is that Mao's cities are going to be VERY hard to capture. At least in the test, most of them had 2 to 3 highly-promoted longbows (as expected). Add to this that most of his cities are on hills. I had to sacrifice 2 to 4 cats after taking down cultural defenses to cause collateral damage. Even then, it usually took 3 to 4 maces to take out that first longbow. It's going to take a huge stack with steady reinforcements to crack Mao.

With zero culture in Shanghai, our 2nd mace has about 54% odds of winning (after no suicides). So you ran into some really bad luck. But that happens, doesn't it?

Anyway, Beijing and Guangzhou the real prizes, with their potential for an Intel Agency. So I'm okay on delaying Shanghai till we have 5 trebs to suicide. That should pretty much guarantee only freaky losses of our maces.

Shanghai attack
T164: 1 treb
T166: 3 trebs
T168: 5 trebs

Btw, I would get our spy out of Mao's land immediately. We don't need any reconnaissance for a long time, just risking him needlessly. We might, however, consider grabbing Nanjing earlier, especially if Roosy DoWs Mao. Then we could leave Nanjing empty to invite attackers out of Shanghai, while we move on Shanghai.

Btw, there's one more important factor in deciding when to DoW: Watching Shanghai's production. If it's apparent that Shanghai is building an Intel Agency, then of course, we'll delay DoW a turn or two.