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SGOTM 12 - Plastic Ducks

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Sep 14, 2010.

  1. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    With some worker adjustment, city 2 can be settled on T46 and gold mine can be improved on T47. Earn 3H3C in this case.:D

    2 workers improve horse together for 1 turn only, next turn, 1 worker goes to gold mine and leave 1 worker to finish the pasture for 2 turns, this worker still has time to remove the fallout for fish city on T46.
     
  2. hydraculas

    hydraculas Chieftain

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    Are u sure about that? Acutally to the west we can already see the border of DG and as we can see there are not any resources except the rice. As far as I can see, I don't think there is a better place for city3. If u wanna settle south to the rice, my city3 won't affect that and u can take use all the resources u want as city4.

    Closer cities are good for micro and have a better economy at early times. The city close to capital can grow the cottages for the capital when we save cash and the capital can take use of the mature cottages when we finished academy and CS and 100% tech rush. I can't find another place to grow cottages for the capital.

    The place also have good food and hammers. With a granary and irrigated rice and other farms the food is enough.The hammers are good with these hills. If we found copper/iron in PH west south to the capital, there is not another place to take use of it.


     
  3. hydraculas

    hydraculas Chieftain

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    Good. I will try this:)

     
  4. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Of course we can't be sure of either. There are merits on both options - however if we're going to delay Oracle by a few turns I'd rather it be for an attempt on GLH than on cottages.

    On overall strategy I'd prefer GLH + 3 cities that can spam workers/settlers than cottages -> this is what I base my vote on, I know the power of cottages for a Bureaucracy capital and we can't have everything.

    Ideally I'd take the three options... Pottery>Writing and GLH but I think this is too greedy to work... heck we're not even certain about Oracle or GLH but they are gambles... it's certain that someone will manage to Oracle Civil Service out of the 10 teams... we need an edge to push us ahead of them.

    We've been going over this issue for quite some time now and there's a clear majority for Writing without Pottery meaning the team either wants a try at GLH or a try at earlier Oracle.

    ~~~

    Just wondering, how many more turns is it to do Writing>Pottery than Pottery>Writing?
    1~2 turns?
    If it doesn't affect Oracle date then let's push back the decision for after Writing and play SOOOOOOOOOOON.
     
  5. hydraculas

    hydraculas Chieftain

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    We will make the 3rd warrior and then 4 turns for 4th worker.

    In fact the capital grow to 5 before the city2 grow to 2 at turn61(library finished in same turn). In my micro, pop5 of capital is more important than pop2 of city2. Mainly for the following reasons:
    a) capital need to grow to 5 and the library need to be finished asap.The sooner it is finished, the sooner we can take both of the gold mine in capital with library and that's much stronger than a gold mine in city2.
    b) if city2 grows to 2 before the capital to 5, then when the capital grows to 5, which tile should you put for the 2nd pop of city2? At that time the cow is not finished.
    C) early 2 pop of city2 will face health penalty.

    About the 4th worker, well workers are always not enough. We need workers for city2. We need workers to clean the fallout of city3 and make cottages and build roads. I even found 4 workers not enough, as the fallout.

     
  6. hydraculas

    hydraculas Chieftain

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    @kossin

    come on...u really think the GLH will works? It is very likely that when you finished the GLH(at the same time you have currency) u will not gain a single additional trade route because of not enough cities! Even u have later, just 2 coins to each coast city and u really think it worthy?
     
  7. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Not right away but long term of course.
     
  8. hydraculas

    hydraculas Chieftain

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    What is long term? After 120 turns? Even when we found AIs on another continent and when we have astronomy? And who knows when we can open borders with AI?

    I just can not see the date. As we all know the importance of snowball effect and the repaid of GLH is just too slow to evaluate. If we take use of the hammers of GLH into something early repaid it will surely make a better snowball effect. We can have more choices and better chances.

    I didn't take GLH in consider since long time ago. I just don't understand why u still not abandon it.
     
  9. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    @ hydra:

    Our success in the last competition was partly due to GLH. Indeed it's output/hammer efficiency may be the highest among all the wonders. In the last game, it gave at least 23 bearkers per hammer on Epic speed, that's about 15 beakers per hammer on Normal. A great investment.

    Surely it's less valuable in this game. My expectation of it is relatively low (if built it at t90, obsolete at t200, we have at average 5 coastal cities during 110 turns. Its efficiency can be some 7-8 beakers per hammer), but it's still a good investment among the options we have at the moment.

    Duckweed's 82turn-Oracle approach with GLH convinces me. I'm for this plan: GLH, Horse-first. So pottery can be skipped to me.

    Will try some tests tonight. I'll be unavailable for the next few days (except for Friday night)
     
  10. hydraculas

    hydraculas Chieftain

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    @dingding

    the GLH worth 1 settler and 2 worker(not include the lighthouse) and that's enough for one more city. Why not calculate one more city for 110 turns? Even if it has an average of 10hammers and 10beakers, it would be 1100hammers and 1100beakers and it's about 5.5hammers+5.5beakers per hammer. And the city will not obsolete forever.
    So which one is better? And this doesn't count the snowball effect which could brought by this city, as earlier return could help us to make bigger investment.

    I understand, just because the GLH in last competition makes u adoring it so much. However this game is totally different and u won't get any foreign trade routes for a long time. Have u think about that DG and us are the only 2 civs on the island and we won't have a single foreign trade route until astronomy?

    Fine Fine I will accept it if that is your point. If anyone complained about the return of GLH later, don't ask for me ok?
     
  11. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    The door is still open for skipping GLH...
    The next set is Writing at which point we can decide to abandon GLH in favor of whatever else. We will have a lot of scouting done in those ~15 turns which can make us change decisions.

    We might even decide on Writing>Pottery (I know it'd be better Pottery>Writing in hindsight but now we don't know).

    It's a game... you win some, lose some.
     
  12. hydraculas

    hydraculas Chieftain

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    I hope we won't go back like Writing>Pottery, this act is just so silly!


     
  13. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    I know :) What I meant is Writing>...>Pottery.

    For the record, I think your suggestion of Pottery>Writing is very strong and if I'd be playing Single Player against AIs that's what I'd do... but in a competition we have to dare a bit more.
     
  14. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    If we all agree to play to the end of Writing, then there's not much to debate for this set - not much disagreement. It would lead us to T48 with the 2nd city settled, the gold improved and both workers ready to move (1 on the gold tile and the other on the desert tile).
    Improving the horse as per Duckweed's suggestion (1 turn only with 1 worker) looks perfect to me.


    This is an issue for the next turnset. If you haven't, I strongly suggest you run a test with 3 workers before the library. The 4th worker could be started when the capital reaches size 5. Then we could afford a 5th and/or a settler. I haven't run tests past T72 yet but I've seen that starting the Oracle as soon as we have Priesthood is too early.

    a) The capital grows to size 5 and finishes the library faster if we delay the 4th worker.
    b) The 2nd gold tile can be improved while the capital is still size 4. This means that it could work Cow, Cow, Rice, Gold while the second city works Fish & Gold.
    The 2nd city doesn't have a library at the time, that's right. What do we lose ? 2C/turn. What do we gain ? Faster growth (again !!!) because we can work the rice. The capital loses a bit but I'm convinced we gain a lot at the scale of the empire. Also, those hammers in city 2 would be put into the GLH/Library. Far from being worthless.
    Finally, 2 gold + 2 cows + horse + rice make 6 improved specials. That's too much for a size 5 capital. So why not share ?
    c) Ok, city 2 has -1 food from unhealthiness for a few turns. So the fish becomes a 4F2C tile instead of 5F2C. Still better than no fish at all, don't you agree ?


    Cottages... City 3... Maybe we'll do that. Maybe we won't. Right ? Team game ; team decides.
    When our 2 warriors will have scouted a bit the surroundings, we will have more info to weight city 3.
    And remember we can still build additional workers after completing the library ;) Most probably, we will not remain stuck at 3 workers forever.


    Example. After the 3rd worker, say we focus the capital on food (works forested silk rather than horse and rice rather than forested silk) :

    - The capital grows to size 5 and completes the library on T57 (need to lend the gold to city 2 for 1 turn to synch growth and library). If I followed well your plan with 4 workers, on T57 the capital is still size 3 and about to grow to 4. With 4 workers, the capital would grow to size 5 on T63. That is 6 turns later.
    - 2nd gold is improved on T59. That is T57 in your plan. 2 turns earlier, right. That means 4 workers is 14 commerce ahead of 3 workers. Except that... 4 workers completes its library on T60 vs T57 for 3 workers.
    I won't provide you elaborate maths but 3 workers doesn't come out behind in terms of beakers. The library is worth 4,75 beakers/turn from T57, then 6,5 beakers/turn from T59.
    City 2 reaches size 2 on T61 and, at that point, we can discuss whether to share the gold tile or not (losing 2bpt accross the empire, as stated above).
     

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  15. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Remember we want to put at least some hammers in Oracle AS SOON AS POSSIBLE to give a better chance that Gandhi will not start it.

    Anyway, I'll run a few tests tonight as well but so far I think Duckweed's worker suggestion is probably the best way forward.
     
  16. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    I understand your feeling. But the game is all about teamwork and every of us should adapt to the strategy that WE choose.

    I think your point is noted: Pottery => Writing has the best beaker efficiency. The actual problem is that we have a bad visibility on the surrounding. We need to improve it within 10~ turns of scouting. Our going for Writing doesn't necessarily mean choosing GLH and abandoning Pottery afterwards. We may lose a few beakers on Writing=>Pottery but that's not a big problem.

    Looking forward to your revised plan and update of the game.:)
     
  17. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Yes, I remember this. I just phrased my sentence the short way :)
    We can put 1 turn of hammers into the Oracle when we get Priesthood and then time its completion with techs.


    In that line of thought, we have the opportunity, in the testgame, to make peace with all of the AIs except for Stalin and Churchill.
    Should we offer peace ? Maybe not to De Gaulle if we want to keep the option to steal workers, but maybe to the others ?
    EDIT : ok, my bad. You already stated that it wouldn't work, I believe.
     
  18. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    It's not going to work in the game as Erkon made us lose 14 warriors against each AI (see F9 screen, 84 warriors lost). Peace requires at least a tech... we can buy Alphabet from Gandhi relatively soon and use that.
     
  19. hydraculas

    hydraculas Chieftain

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    @BIC
    Actually the capital grow to 5 at turn 61 and the library finished at turn 60 or 61, depends on micro.

    My plan is mainly based on my simulation that oracling CS with 3 cities. If u can do it before turn 80, just show me and I will adopt it. If u don't wanna oracle CS with 3cities, we are not talking about the same thing.

    I will go for the next set until city2 is settled, then we can have an evaluation for the GLH. If the return of GLH is not high enough, I will still insist on oracling CS with 3cities, since I think it's much better than 2cities without GLH.
     
  20. hydraculas

    hydraculas Chieftain

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    Does dingding need to submit his saves to the submission website? Or I can continue his saves and we submit them later?
    I will do it tonight.
     

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