SGOTM 12 - Spooks

[WackenOpenAir]

The problem is, also SOZ is too late to be usefull for the early shields. Before we have researched writing, we will have like 20 spt from our only town and we have nothing for prebuilds.

Indeed, it is a good plan to incite wars between weak and strong civ's so that the strong ones get bigger.

 

[Abegweit]

What about a beeline to Math instead of Philo? With 30 opponents at Diety, we probably won't have much of a chance at the free tech anyway. Going to Math gives us somewhere to dump to the shields if the Colossus project fails. As Andronicus says, we surely want to build this anyway. And Math is good trading material.

Edit: @Wacken the Pyramids makes a good pre-build.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

We have very good chances at philo. KC made a test map, but accidentaly gave the AI 3 settlers. Still he beats them for philo.

Pyramids may be possible if the AI doesn't complete the pyramids before we have math. (which may very well be possible, tech is REALLY slow)

 

[killercane]

Well if we add in the worker it seems we can get Colossus one turn earlier. How is that for a ballsy move, huh?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

SoZ as backup wont work at all. I have the collosus finished earlier than i research masonry. Let alone math.
Before we have math, we have probably over 600 shields worth of production and all the wonders that can be available at the start have been build or may already be close to producing double culture.

Edit: If we want SoZ, it will also be a goal to go for. Before ANYONE has math, all wonders will be build. So if we want SoZ, we need to be the first to get math and then start it from scratch. It may very well be possible though since we will be building it at 20spt. However, as our production compared to research is insane, they only value we get from SoZ is that the units are better than what we can build. We are not sure yet if we can build swords. If we can, SoZ isn't worth real a lot imo.

If we do not want to go for Collosus, we need to focus on research so much, that we should first build roads without mines and then come back later for the mines. We should then max commerce and build curraghs to get many contacts. With many contacts it will be good trading and maybe no research is an option to think about. We could then probably get Iron Working and math at the same moment by trading. If we don't happen to have iron, we can build SoZ.

Of course, we are not on a random map. If it is possible to build the collosus is not a random event. Do they want us to succeed building the collosus ? Also we may not have Ivory without a reason, maybe they want us to build SoZ.

If we do choose to go for the SoZ option (first checking if we have iron) we have the choise to go for philosophy and trade math. this will help us further trough the tech three, it will ensure that we also have Iron working and map making to transport our units. However, it means the AI will have math before us. Of course, with us only needing 10 turns to build SoZ and most of the AI probably not having ivory, that ain't a disaster if they don't have it too long before us. The other option would be to go straight for math, but then we may not be able to get even writing, keeping us a long way from math making, and a lot less advanced on the tech tree in general. With the possible uselesness of SoZ, i have my doubts with this method.

With our production compared to commerce being so out of line, i also don't think we should research pottery whatever else we choose to do.

 

[Abegweit]

SoZ as backup wont work at all. I have the collosus finished earlier than i research masonry. Let alone math.

Wow. OK. Forget that idea.

If we do not want to go for Collosus, we need to focus on research so much, that we should first build roads without mines and then come back later for the mines. We should then max commerce and build curraghs to get many contacts. With many contacts it will be good trading and maybe no research is an option to think about. We could then probably get Iron Working and math at the same moment by trading. If we don't happen to have iron, we can build SoZ.

If we can indeed get Philo while attempting to build the Colossus, I say we should go that route. We can catch up on the commerce pretty quickly if we have two workers and start pumping curraghs after the colossus run finishes, successful or not. The more we discuss this, the more it seems to me that we have a lot to gain and very little to lose by trying for it.

The other option would be to go straight for math, but then we may not be able to get even writing, keeping us a long way from math making, and a lot less advanced on the tech tree in general. With the possible uselesness of SoZ, i have my doubts with this method.

If you can't get there in time to save the shields from the Colossus, there is absolutely no point. Also, we have five ivory. Admittedly this is not a random map but that is likely to be a monopoly.

With our production compared to commerce being so out of line, i also don't think we should research pottery whatever else we choose to do.

It's also a good reason to build the Statue when we get to math. Because we have the shields to burn.

Has anyone thought about the consequences of this sucky government we are saddled with? I think I'd rather Despo for an OCC. How can you go to war... or even explore? The unit costs are going to be crushing.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

We have 12 units support.
At first, i think we should use 2 for workers, 3 for MP and up to 9 for exploring curraghs.
Then when we have Iron Working and hopefully iron, we should replace them for swords, enough to conquer.
At this point we will have to go with a negative cashflow. We should no longer use MP's as it is cheaper to make our people happy with the slider. Our income can probably support about 4 more units. If we want more than 16 total units, we need a cash reserve. If the tiles are worked, we don't need workers anymore so that is 16 units to attack a city, if we need to sail, that makes 10 swords in 5 dromons and a spare dromon to take out enemy ships. I think that should do.

This is why i think we have iron or it would be real torture.

 

[Abegweit]

Just re-read the game conditions. I missed the part about the ten extra units supported. I thought we only had two

 

[WackenOpenAir]

BTW, I'm not trying to create the impression that failing the collosus costs us nothing. If we do not go for the collosus, we can build curraghs much earlier, making more contacts and better trades. We can then also road first instead of mine the tiles, creating faster research = faster iron working and earlier conquest.

-We have too more production than we can handle.
-We can probably get SoZ anyway if we want to.
-We probably don't want to research pottery.
-Going for Collosus comes at the cost of delayed contacts and delayed conquest.

Contacts will be delayed by about 20 turns, meaning we should still have multiple contacts before we reach phillo, but not as many as we would have without collosus.
Conquest would be delayed by about 3-4 turns i estimate.
What the impact of this would be i do not know.

 

[killercane]

Well, a bit more on the worker join idea. If we settle SE, and the second cow there is on bonus grass, we can build a curragh first, and still get the Colossus built at turn 24 (2800 BC); once it grows to size 7 it is making 15 shields (get the extra shield for settling on the plains) with 170 shields in the box. Worker mines the plains cow where he is standing, and then joins the city. Pretty much perfect.

If we build straight Colossus, the worker can mine the plains cow and then road and then join the city, giving us Colossus one turn earlier.

I think it is best to hedge our bets and build the curragh for the early contacts. We can still go for the Colossus and only lose one turn. Of course development will be delayed, but we can just pump out workers and join them later.

 

[Abegweit]

IMO, we shouldn't hedge bets. Our chances at the Colossus are poor enough as it is. One turn could make all the difference. If the team wants to go for a standard exploration path, then let's do. But choose one path and go for it.

A couple of questions.

1) How long is it to Philo? 15spt is a curragh per turn. We catch up on contacts real quickly,

2) What do you estimate the odd are of getting the Statue?

 

[Andronicus]

Just to put a fly in the ointment.
Should we reconsider moving?
Moving exchanges 5 tiles, we lose a plains and 4 coast, gain a jungle and 3 coast and unknown (? also coast). Advantages are if clearing jungle reveals BG (? 1:5 chance) as well as access to SE cow before expansion.
Staying in place gives us 1 turn earlier to start building, growing and researching. It also gives us an extra 2gpt from first turn which wont be gained by moving until both plains ivories are worked. Finally it also gives us immediate lux connection allowing less use of lux slider.

Overall moving improves early growth at sig cost to commerce for quite some time.

 

[Andronicus]

15spt is a curragh per turn. We catch up on contacts real quickly,

This will quickly put us over the unit support limit - makes suicide curraghs more attractive though. I assume differential naval movement is on?

 

[killercane]

Well without an early curragh, we may have difficulty trading pottery to switch Colossus to a granary. I think our chances of getting philo and the Statue are good regardless of how we do it.

 

[killercane]

Are we sure we gain the ivory commerce by settling on it?

 

[Abegweit]

This will quickly put us over the unit support limit - makes suicide curraghs more attractive though. I assume differential naval movement is on?

Did you make the same mistake as me? We have 12 free units.

Well without an early curragh, we may have difficulty trading pottery to switch Colossus to a granary. I think our chances of getting philo and the Statue are good regardless of how we do it.

Dumping the shields into a barracks is not the end of the world. We only lose one turn of production in the long run. Admittedly, you'd prefer to have the granary first.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Sorry, i had forgotten something last post.

There is more than 4 turns delay, not only do ze build mines b4 roads, also do we not use MP while building SoZ, so ze lose q few more turns there for a total of 7 or so.

Gotta get going now, i will post more tomorrow.

 

[Abegweit]

Are we sure we gain the ivory commerce by settling on it?

You said you tested it and that we don't. Right?

There is more than 4 turns delay, not only do ze build mines b4 roads, also do we not use MP while building SoZ, so ze lose q few more turns there for a total of 7 or so.

Surely we will have this stuff in place long before math comes along.

BTW, do they use azerty keyboards in Holland?

 

[Andronicus]

Are we sure we gain the ivory commerce by settling on it?

Sorry my bad - I recalled extra gold with settling on gold hill in past, took me ages to find an ivory start to test, eventually settled for incense and settling on it gave no extra commerce, so settling on ivory will waste commerce bonus

Did you make the same mistake as me? We have 12 free units.

Well a curragh per turn could quickly fill up those 12 free units. (allowing for workers and mp as well)

 

[killercane]

Just to put a fly in the ointment.
Should we reconsider moving?
Moving exchanges 5 tiles, we lose a plains and 4 coast, gain a jungle and 3 coast and unknown (? also coast). Advantages are if clearing jungle reveals BG (? 1:5 chance) as well as access to SE cow before expansion.
Staying in place gives us 1 turn earlier to start building, growing and researching. It also gives us an extra 2gpt from first turn which wont be gained by moving until both plains ivories are worked. Finally it also gives us immediate lux connection allowing less use of lux slider.

Overall moving improves early growth at sig cost to commerce for quite some time.

You said you tested it and that we don't. Right?

Yes, but I wanted to double check, Andronicus may have known something about it that I didnt or the test might have been screwed up somehow. Posted below are pictures, settling on and off ivory in Feudalism. No difference, still 5 commerce each.

Sorry, i had forgotten something last post.

There is more than 4 turns delay, not only do ze build mines b4 roads, also do we not use MP while building SoZ, so ze lose q few more turns there for a total of 7 or so.

Gotta get going now, i will post more tomorrow.

Somebody started their psychedelic trance party early. Glad to see you are thinking of civ while impaired!