SGOTM 12 - Spooks

Abegweit · Mar 14, 2007

Synopsis: Indians are dead and 15 troops + one MGL are on their way to France. The strange boot out of Roman waters probably cost a turn getting to Paris.

I haven't moved much. Several workers should merged at Osaka, Teo and Thebes this turn. We now have about nine troops scattered around the home territories, which should be lots for defence, possibly even enough for a new offence if we wanted.

BTW, the conquest of India has made Memphis almost completely corrupt.

Spoiler turnset :

WackenOpenAir · Mar 14, 2007

Ah i see, no infrastructure yet

Abegweit · Mar 14, 2007

Whipped a lib and a harbour in Delhi and built a uni in Constantinople. I think it's time for more now.

Edit: didn't see your posts at the bottom of the previous page until I was finished. Getting the military up to scratch at home was necessary although I perhaps built a bit more than necessary....

WackenOpenAir · Mar 14, 2007

I think:

Delhi should produce some workers now.

Our core should have it's workers joined soon and should build Infrastructure as explained.

The best Memphis can be is a scientist farm with 5 irrigated grassland. It requires culture, an aquaduct and a lot of worker jobs to be done. Not much to do with it now. We should even consider gifting it when we have scandinavia.

We are paying unit support. I think Memphis build could be changed to courthouse. Capital doesn't have much to build other than units though. These units and the AC's that will be produced if we want it or not could be used to take the most usefull of cities we can find. Persepolis is probably the next best for us. They are our friends indeed, but we should consider taking it.

We have loads of gold. Although we prefer building infrastructure over units, i think it would be nice if we could make some warriors somewhere and upgrade those. That would allow us to have an army capable of conquering while still building infrastructure. Maybe we should keep Orleans disconnected for a while. It can then make warriors in 2 while having a nice food surplus after we build the FP in Paris.

Abegweit · Mar 14, 2007

WackenOpenAir said:
I think:

Delhi should produce some workers now.

Agreed there. It can build three-turn workers easily. After that, it needs a court.

Memphis build could be changed to courthouse.

Memphis? Do you mean Thebes?

Persepolis is probably the next best for us. They are our friends indeed, but we should consider taking it.

Any city with fresh water is good.

WackenOpenAir · Mar 14, 2007

Memphis? Do you mean Thebes?
-Indeed

Any city with fresh water is good.
-Persepolis could probably be better than a scientist farm. I think it could be a decent city like Delhi and Thebes.

killercane · Mar 14, 2007

Good job on the Injuns, they had it coming. Our development looks good, but why Astro? We have so many AIs who have not had golden age, and banking we have to research anyway. The only reason to go for astro is to get Copes built sooner, but we dont have paris yet, so no prebuild. This delays our end date by at least a couple turns. We can give Persia or Sumeria or whoever 30 turns to do Astro, and get the prebuild ready for Copes. In fact I think we should switch to Banking now, and I really wish we would have talked about it some.

Vikes- in golden age now or no? They have a zerk running around there (not on the boat which is silly of them). We can use them for research rather than kill them I think if they get GA.

Dutch- have been living far too long. They need to be dead and their city in Persian hands. Mongols and Hittites too. I think we should now do a lot of alliances in this manner. It is past time that these islands needed to be consolidated.

English- look to be terrible. Sumeria can get more land and golden age. Might be able to provide some gold.

Russia/Greek island- needs consolidation. Everyone vs. Carthage who seems to be on the warpath.

Spain can go quickly, and the others around like Portugal soon after.

Also dont we need to add in workers in the core soon per Wacken Plan? France will be ours in 4 turns or 5? It looks like 5 from here. At that point we can get rid of this lux slider costing us so much science from WW.

Paul#42 · Mar 14, 2007

Wow. You guys are making short work of Gandhi. :eek:

When did gunpowder spread? Why doesn't X-Man know it? :spank:

Why don't we? :confused:

Hammu offers 18gpt on top of it for Theo :wow:

Seems Babs are the better researchers... :dunno:

Leave him his money ad let him have a shot for chemistry or astro? :hmm:

I'd also switch Const (and Teno, Kyoto?) to a market now.
Thebes court, then uni.

I favor to dow Mongols, sign in Hittites. If the Mongols come through, we have Persians and Babs as a fall back.

Deeply disappointed with X-Man's performance I'd also think about taking Persepolis for our empire and pushing Hammu instead. :hmm:

edit: x-post with killer - agree on the astro decision criticism. But now that we are than half into it, I won't change it.
Some civs (COM?, Americans, Ottomans) tend to research banking imo... :hmm:

So how about going for chemistry after astro, let some try for banking and some for metallurgy?

Abegweit · Mar 14, 2007

Our development looks good, but why Astro? We have so many AIs who have not had golden age, and banking we have to research anyway. The only reason to go for astro is to get Copes built sooner, but we dont have paris yet, so no prebuild. This delays our end date by at least a couple turns. We can give Persia or Sumeria or whoever 30 turns to do Astro, and get the prebuild ready for Copes. In fact I think we should switch to Banking now, and I really wish we would have talked about it some.

I think you can forget getting research out of the AI. Check post 665 for some analysis. If we get guns, we'll be lucky. We have killed all the best researchers but one and the last one is our next target. The purpose of Astro is indeed to get to Cops and to Newtons. Anything not on that path comes last. Banking is useless except to get us to the next age.

After Astro, if we can get guns from somewhere then Chemistry comes next. If no one has it then I would support a sideline to banking. It could easily be a mistake though.

We have to disabuse ourselves of the notion that this "deity" AI is actually capable of research.

Also dont we need to add in workers in the core soon per Wacken Plan?

Yes. They are all ready for you.

Andronicus · Mar 14, 2007

Greece has gunpowder as well - seems like some AI are researching.

Do we want Cops in Paris (will have 51 commerce pre-corruption at size 12 with collosus) or build in Constantinople with 49 commerce?

Con could build Cop immed it becomes avail (? use Sistine as pre build), whereas Paris has to wait for lib and uni to get full advantage - Con would be many beakers ahead. Later once Paris up to speed it can build Newton's.

Paul#42 · Mar 14, 2007

Abegweit said:
If we get guns, we'll be lucky.
...
After Astro, if we can get guns from somewhere then Chemistry comes next.

You did see that two civs are offering guns already, didn't you? :rolleyes:

Andronicus said:
Do we want Cops in Paris (will have 51 commerce pre-corruption at size 12 with collosus) or build in Constantinople with 49 commerce?

Con could build Cop immed it becomes avail (? use Sistine as pre build), whereas Paris has to wait for lib and uni to get full advantage - Con would be many beakers ahead. Later once Paris up to speed it can build Newton's.

Good call! :thumbsup:

Switch to Cope in Const? :bounce:

Abegweit · Mar 14, 2007

Paul#42 said:
When did gunpowder spread? Why doesn't X-Man know it?
Why don't we?
Hammu offers 18gpt on top of it for Theo
Seems Babs are the better researchers...
Leave him his money ad let him have a shot for chemistry or astro?

He didn't know it last round. Nor did he have any gpt. I was keeping an eye on these things. Greeks know it too, BTW. As for this round, I basically hit the enter key and posted. It is good news though. I still want to take the cash and go after Chemistry next, followed by a beeline to Newts. We can gift 'em up in the hopes that they will go after banking or metallurgy next. I could go for that plan.

So how about going for chemistry after astro, let some try for banking and some for metallurgy?

Exactly.

WackenOpenAir · Mar 14, 2007

Are you sure about those commerce numbers ?

I think Const should make around 28 base commerce at size 12 and Paris somewhere around 36.

More discussion would have been better, but research should not be changed now.

Andronicus · Mar 14, 2007

killercane said:
Dutch- have been living far too long. They need to be dead and their city in Persian hands. Mongols and Hittites too. I think we should now do a lot of alliances in this manner. It is past time that these islands needed to be consolidated.

Agree - embassy with Hittites and dow Dutch and then after they are gone the Monguls. Set Hittites, Persians and Babs onto Dutch then Monguls once Dutch gone

English- look to be terrible. Sumeria can get more land and golden age. Might be able to provide some gold.

Agree

Russia/Greek island- needs consolidation. Everyone vs. Carthage who seems to be on the warpath.

Agree

Spain can go quickly, and the others around like Portugal soon after.

I would prioritise giving Ottomen Incan and Mayan land first. Ottos researched monarchy in not too shabby time despite their crappy separated cities - they would have to do better with developed Incan and Mayan land

Abegweit · Mar 14, 2007

Andronicus said:
Do we want Cops in Paris (will have 51 commerce pre-corruption at size 12 with collosus) or build in Constantinople with 49 commerce?

Const is not doing anywhere near 49 commerce. It currently is doing 28 and could be as much as 30 depending on the tiles worked. Thing is, it has a lib and a uni and is running a scientist. Paris has base production of 41 commerce pre-corruption. 36 afterwards.

Andronicus · Mar 14, 2007

WackenOpenAir said:
Are you sure about those commerce numbers ?

I think Const should make around 28 base commerce at size 12 and Paris somewhere around 36.

On the current save Con is showing 49 commerce per turn (it can actually be improved to 50 per turn by working coast instead of m grass)
Paris will work 11 wool which roaded give 2 commerce each. Add 5 for city centre (the extra 1 for seafaring) then 2 for lake or 1 for hill gives 28 or 29, add extra 12 commerce (1per tile) for colossus and I get 41 (not sure if get extra 1 for city centre with colossus - if so that could put it up to 42)

edit
My apologies I am mixing up what the city screen calls commerce which is actually after multipliers
You are correct Con can only do 28- 29 base commerce per turn, so well behind Paris's potential (which was I previously miscalculated anyway)

killercane · Mar 14, 2007

Nah not criticizing, just wish we would have talked about it beforehand. Our information on Persia being terrible researchers is somewhat old or is it? We are taking our info from the screenshot from some time ago (I think, and probably I am wrong here). We can always gift luxes to help them once we are in better position.

Maybe if we give enough AIs astro, and use the Golden Age trick, we improve our chances of getting banking. We dont have much to work with on their part though. They seem to like Music Theory a lot, or Econ/Navigation. In fact they love Navigation quite a lot, I just looked it up. I dont think we have enough capable AIs to give astro to to improve our chances, and we really have very few choices left techwise. I am pretty torn here as we may delay Copes by a few turns by not finishing astro.

Good catch on Paris commerce Abe, we definitely want Copes there. So we have 5 turns to take it, a turn for FP, and then some 6 turns of libe/uni building, and probably a courthouse there as well to squeeze out a bit more.

Oh and Paris will also have loads of tourism commerce from those early wonders. How much I dont know as I dont know how to calculate that.

Abegweit · Mar 14, 2007

Andronicus said:
I would prioritise giving Ottomen Incan and Mayan land first. Ottos researched monarchy in not too shabby time despite their crappy separated cities - they would have to do better with developed Incan and Mayan land

Tiwanku could be a nice town for the Ottos if we got rid of all the jungle. I bet that Cuzco looks pretty good too. Too bad there's no way to get water down south... but we could consider doing some landscaping for Osman.

Abegweit · Mar 14, 2007

killercane said:
Our information on Persia being terrible researchers is somewhat old or is it?

We have a full map of the city. Just count up the gold. It's pathetic. Their second city has now reached size two. :rolleyes:

The only AIs which are capable of doing decent research are those with special resources. The Babs and the Ottos are about the last ones around.

Oh and Paris will also have loads of tourism commerce from those early wonders. How much I dont know as I dont know how to calculate that.

Good point. Whatever the amount, it only shifts the decision even more strongly in the same direction.

WackenOpenAir · Mar 15, 2007

Tourism gold is not used for science i think, is it ?
Not that it matters, the wonders should be in paris anyway.

What makes you think about swiching research while we have done half of the research needed on astro ?
I don't really see a lot of use in making all those wars either actually.
If we just start wars wherever we come to fight ourselves, most civs will be killed before we are halfway IA.

Imo, we should:
-Disconnect orleans from Paris. Build 2 turn warriors here. Walk these warriors over to paris with Harbor and upgrade there.
-Build Markets Const and Teoti. Uni's then markets in Kyoto and Teno. In the capital, we should build more units for 10 turns, then a market. (an earlier market would be useless when there are no markets in the other towns yet)
-Build the wonders and all we need in Paris.

We should be able to upgrade quite some warriors in paris. With the units that will be there to take Paris, that should be well enough to take down Scandinavia.

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