SGOTM 12 - Spooks

Abegweit · Feb 22, 2007

Paul#42 said:
Nice idea! Where is it?

Ten tiles northwest of our capital. It is actually closer by boat than Kyoto. Three turns. There are four civs on the island. From northwest to southwest they are India, Maya, some pink thing (Incas?) and Turkey.

Chicken is four turns away and can also be bombarded, as can Istanbul.

Too late

Agreed.

Paul#42 · Feb 22, 2007

Abegweit said:
Ten tiles northwest of our capital. It is actually closer by boat than Kyoto. Three turns. There are four civs on the island. From northwest to southwest they are India, Maya, some pink thing (Incas?) and Turkey.

Chicken is four turns away and can also be bombarded, as can Istanbul.

I guess that would make it a natural target when we have finished with Japan and Aztecs. :hammer:

I bet someone on Gandhi's island has swords :shifty:

and we would also need more than two dromons to go there quickly.

However it would be a difference to Klarius approach which is always worth considering. :hmm:

Abegweit · Feb 22, 2007

Paul#42 said:
I guess that would make it a natural target when we have finished with Japan and Aztecs.

There is also Red to the north (Rome?). I would say that these four islands are what we should consider to be "our" territory.

I bet someone on Gandhi's island has swords and we would also need more than two dromons to go there quickly.

Surely we want more than two Dromons anyway? I'd want three, maybe four, to attack Teno. Definitely four against Kyoto. Incas and Romans have iron. Another point in favour of India is that it has spices.

On the subject of Rep, I found this in the Microbe's War Academy article. Seems pretty clear-cut.

If you have a gpt deal with A in which you have MA against B. If B is destroyed before the 20-turn period expires, the deal ends immediately but your rep isn't affected. It's often (ab)used by players to sign an MA when the target AI is about to die, and get money back as soon as the AI is destroyed.

WackenOpenAir · Feb 22, 2007

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/ai_attitude.php

Doesn't cover all the details, but it's a good read anyway.

every declaration of war costs 1 point on all civs. So we shouldn't declare too often and hope that some guys will declare on us.

Andronicus · Feb 22, 2007

I think Chicken Itza (? also Delhi) should be part of our long term plans, however any attack on that island will require far more troops - taking the 4 towns to our south (Japan and Aztecs) gives us an extra 20 unit support and must be our first focus.

My thoughts re getting MM
How about temporarily stopping science (keep scientists as 3 science per turn better than 2 tax per turn) so can buy MM with techs and money ASAP?
Any other AI discovering MM will reduce the cost anyway.
Delaying attack to build a stronger force will cost us in unit support, but increases safety in ensuring immed capture of Aztec capital and speeds subsequent push to other towns as Wacken points out. I think we can live with short term unit costs of larger force.

Any thoughts on GA?
We may not get any choice in it, as our dromons (when we have them) may be attacked, esp now Aztecs have MM.
Can we get 30spt during GA? If so it might be good use to push out units to ensure rapid capture of all 4 towns.

WackenOpenAir · Feb 22, 2007

Andronicus said:
I think Chicken Itza (? also Delhi) should be part of our long term plans, however any attack on that island will require far more troops - taking the 4 towns to our south (Japan and Aztecs) gives us an extra 20 unit support and must be our first focus.

My thoughts re getting MM
How about temporarily stopping science (keep scientists as 3 science per turn better than 2 tax per turn) so can buy MM with techs and money ASAP?
Any other AI discovering MM will reduce the cost anyway.
Delaying attack to build a stronger force will cost us in unit support, but increases safety in ensuring immed capture of Aztec capital and speeds subsequent push to other towns as Wacken points out. I think we can live with short term unit costs of larger force.

Any thoughts on GA?
We may not get any choice in it, as our dromons (when we have them) may be attacked, esp now Aztecs have MM.
Can we get 30spt during GA? If so it might be good use to push out units to ensure rapid capture of all 4 towns.

I don't think we need to stop science. MM is has the highest priority for the AI. 2 out of 3 start researching it as soon as they have writing. It will be cheap soon enough.
We have more reason to worry about AI's researching construction and COL anytime soon.

We should do everything we can to avoid our golden age until later.
A golden age now can make 30spt, but that is for one city and it will not be a huge help for us. However, when in het future we have 10+ cities and the science wonders, the golden age will be huge.

We can avoid a golden age pretty easilly i think.
-Never attack with a dromon
-Never bombard anything with less than 3 hitpoints (rate of fire = 2)
To prevent our dromons from being attacked, we should stay in the waters around our island where we can see what other units are around. We can then use our superior movement to intercept the ship and bombard it. The damaged enemy ship will retreat to harbor for repair.

Abegweit · Feb 22, 2007

Teno should be making roughly 13 spt ATM. We should be able to figure it out exactly next turn. Given the AI's 40% discount, this means it would be finished in 14 turns. I don't think that their odds of finishing it are very good though. We could give them a helping hand with a GA, boosting them to 20 spt and reducing the time to 9 turns.

We should try to time our landing for that time frame. Three dromons and one sword over the next 7 turns would be just about perfect. As Paul says, it sure would be nice if MM showed up in the next two turns.

Paul#42 · Feb 22, 2007

Gentlemen, we have a Golden Age. :bounce:

(just joking)

The save

Spoiler :

Some thoughts:
economy
3 turns to literature at 90% making -9gpt.
Unit support exceeded, we need to capture a town, let our explorers do some suicide rides...
Sell the worker :crazyeyes:

exploration
Still 9 civs unmet. SCI Russia and Sumeria among them. Mongols will be met on the interturn.

foreign affairs
I think I made a (minor) mistake: As usual I gifted money to all civs before selling Writing and Maths to make them polite. This we should do just to our friends and "encourage" our not-so-good-friends to dow us. We should get plenty of demands of tech and money. Some War happiness would be nice and some war should be ignited soon, too. That migt also net us some slaves to trade for. We need them badly!

WackenOpenAir · Feb 22, 2007

how do you get to that 13 spt ?
I think 2 curraghs is enough. We planned to sail twice, bringing 8 units.

Paul#42 · Feb 22, 2007

We were the only team to lose territory - in my turnset :blush:

I'm so disappointed :ack:

I must...

WackenOpenAir · Feb 22, 2007

Hmm, i fear you were a little impatient with the price you payed for math.

At this point, we need only to hold onto Currency and Literature when we get it for trading Construction and possibly CoL.

The rest of our techs, we can sell around. Japan is willing to pay us 4 gpt for philosphy. So lets get back our gpt. And several civs have some gold for us available.

Abegweit · Feb 22, 2007

Paul#42 said:
We were the only team to lose territory - in my turnset

I'm so disappointed

Dang japs. They need to pay for that!

killercane · Feb 22, 2007

WackenOpenAir said:
Hmm, i fear you were a little impatient with the price you payed for math.

At this point, we need only to hold onto Currency and Literature when we get it for trading Construction and possibly CoL.

The rest of our techs, we can sell around. Japan is willing to pay us 4 gpt for philosphy. So lets get back our gpt. And several civs have some gold for us available.

You mean Mapmaking? Dont sell to Japan, arent they our next target? We should have them gone by 1000 BC, no?

The Aztecs have a lot of our gold?

Abegweit · Feb 22, 2007

killercane said:
You mean Mapmaking? Dont sell to Japan, arent they our next target? We should have them gone by 1000 BC, no?

Already gone. Besides, they would have got it long before we were ready to move, one way or another.

The Aztecs have a lot of our gold?

AFAIK, we have never traded with the Aztecs.

WackenOpenAir · Feb 22, 2007

Ye, we may be at war with japan within 20 turns.

Indeed, aztecs have our gold now.

Andronicus · Feb 22, 2007

Paris finished ToA - guess they are in GA thanks to prev wonders? If they know MM soon, they will probably also nab GLH - recommend not trading MM to them if we meet them

Beware trading ivory - whoever we trade it to could build SoZ - if we want it we should keep ivory to AIs we plan to be able to capture it from quickly.

No problem selling philo to Japs for gpt - it will likely be more than 10 turns till we dow them. We get their gpt in interim and no rep hit breaking a deal where we give tech and they pay gpt.

Are either Japs or Aztecs building SoZ? I thought the idea was to get both their towns building wonders prior to war so they would deplete units more quickly in the war.

Abegweit · Feb 22, 2007

WackenOpenAir said:
Ye, we may be at war with japan within 20 turns.

I sure hope so. :hammer:

Indeed, aztecs have our gold now.

If so, I'm obviously missing something. How did this happen?

Abegweit · Feb 22, 2007

Andronicus said:
No problem selling philo to Japs for gpt - it will likely be more than 10 turns till we dow them. We get their gpt in interim and no rep hit breaking a deal where we give tech and they pay gpt.

Good point.

Are either Japs or Aztecs building SoZ? I thought the idea was to get both their towns building wonders prior to war so they would deplete units more quickly in the war.

Aztecs are building GLight. I suspect it will probably turn into an SoZ in the end. We shall see.

Andronicus · Feb 22, 2007

Paul#42 said:
We were the only team to lose territory - in my turnset

klarius lost territory betweeen turns 72 and 80 ? a flip

Andronicus · Feb 22, 2007

Abegweit said:
If so, I'm obviously missing something. How did this happen?

Gold went to Aztecs here

Paul#42 said:
turn 49 1790 BC
...
Buy MM from Aztecs for Maths, Philo, Poly, 167g.

SGOTM 12 - Spooks

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